storm
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Post by storm on Apr 24, 2008 10:58:44 GMT -5
My ancestors have for sure not ever been muslims. In contrast the muslims have always been abhored among my family, and till today the word "Tourkos" (Turk) is a very negative one. i wasnt specifically talking about you. [But I think its you who didnt understand me. The case you are describing with the reconverting Christians affects perhaps some hundreds of people...thats really no worth mentioning number. And at least it makes the Ottoman Empire a nonturkish empire. come on Kastor you know thats not true. at the fall of the Ottoman empire a huge percentage of the Greece's population was Muslim. some did indeed immigrate to Turkey either by force or willingly but for sure there would beenmany hundreds of thousands who converted to Christianity to escape persecution. in the same way many Christians in Anatolia converted to Islam to escape persecution whose descendants today are Turks
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 24, 2008 13:28:57 GMT -5
In contrast the muslims have always been abhored among my family, and till today the word "Tourkos" (Turk) is a very negative one. Typical Greek - You just don't know whether someone in your family did or didn't commit crimes against the Greeks of the Ottoman empire. Unfortunately as I said before - u just don't have enough knowledge about Turks to speak
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Post by terroreign on Apr 24, 2008 14:33:13 GMT -5
I believe the Ottoman Empire was more Turkish than Byzantine was greek
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 24, 2008 15:22:43 GMT -5
wrong... If u knew how the empire started u would know i has been mixed from day one.
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storm
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Post by storm on Apr 24, 2008 15:26:23 GMT -5
the Byzantine Empire was just as mixed as the Ottoman Empire.
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Post by fenian on Apr 24, 2008 15:29:09 GMT -5
Weren't all the empires mixed(multicultural) as well as Ottoman and Byzantines? There was no single empire belonging to a pure ethnic group in the middle age as far as I read in history books.
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 24, 2008 15:49:21 GMT -5
wtf, I hear that for the first time, do you have any sources for that?
Desire even if...I dont care who killed but by whose order. And it was the ottoman system, the system that conquered and enslaved the home of millions of Christians.
I find it ridiculous that you guys are arguing the turkishness of the ottoman empire. In the end you will tell us it was a confederation or league of nations...rofl.
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storm
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Post by storm on Apr 24, 2008 18:23:34 GMT -5
wtf, I hear that for the first time, do you have any sources for that? certain regions had very large Muslim populations, f.e. according to Ottoman censuses 47% of Crete's population was Muslim
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Post by yahadj on Apr 24, 2008 23:35:26 GMT -5
Nobody needs to worry. There is divine justice. Every criminal will be punished accordingly. And nobody's crime is transferrable. Everybody is responsible for his own actions. The crimes of our fathers is not shared by us. There is no law in any penal code claiming kids to be responsible for their fathers crimes.
They are responsible only for themselves. Only Allah knows the best about who was right and who was wrong. Trust Allah and move on.
I don't prefer Turkish criminal over Greek criminal. Both are the same. There is one way to the Truth. By justice to all.
Judge me only by my own actions. Not prejudices. If I am wrong let me know. I will try my best to improve myself. But if I don't, then blame me. Love and respect each other! PEACE
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 25, 2008 2:29:29 GMT -5
Again Kasto u are missing the point: The order could have been given by Greek Ottomans. Yet since you say you dont care and u clearly state : OTTOMAN SYSTEM. then why the f.uck are u telling us we are a continuation since the system is completely different since 1923. If we are to blame so is all the other ethnicities involved.
Also I haven't seen u post so passionately against Christians enslaving non Christians.
Its such a shame to see someone who lives in Europe thinking so backwards.
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Post by hellboy87 on Apr 25, 2008 4:51:21 GMT -5
The Ottoman Empire started out by a Turk.
But their culture throughout history,has been mixed:Persian,Arabic,Greek,Indigenous Anatolian,Indo-European Anatolian,Armenian among the blend.
The rulling family,yes,they were mixed:Turkish,Armenian,Circassian,German,Venetian,French,Serbian,Bulgarian,Greek,Polish and other ethnic groups among their ancestry.
And of course their Grand Viziers consisted of many Balkanians too.As well as the Jannissary,solely Balkanians after the beginning.
But the point is,the Republic of Turkey is from the Ottoman Empire as in,the Ottoman Empire is a precursor to Turkey.
So yes,Greeks,Bulgarians,Serbs and others working for the Ottomans may have ordered this and that bad thing on members of their own ethnicity,but they were working for the Ottomans and the Ottoman Empire became Turkey,so thats why they throw the blame on Turkey.Republic of Turkey is the heir of the Ottoman Empire.
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 25, 2008 6:45:50 GMT -5
Exactly hellboy. Thats how it is.
I believe if innocent Greeks were expeled and killed, innocent Turks deserve it as well, to be more exact the descendants of those who committed such crimes or ordered them. And I dont care what their origin was, I just know they did it in the name of the turkish ottoman empire, the todays Republic of Turkey. I dont know if God exists, if he does Yahac is right. If he does not, I hope the ones or their descendants will pay on earth. Amarties goneon pedeuousi tekna. The parents sin's torture their offspring, the ancient Greeks said.
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Post by hellboy87 on Apr 25, 2008 7:35:25 GMT -5
thanks kasto
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 25, 2008 9:55:17 GMT -5
I disagree- it isn't a continuation: through borders, language, system, or culture.
It is like saying Bosnia is a continuation of Yugoslavia.
Turkey just as Greece did broke off from the Ottoman empire- by your logic you too are a continuation of the Ottomans.
Yes started by a Turk - The ONLY Turk the rest was mixed.
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Post by jerryspringer on Apr 25, 2008 16:21:45 GMT -5
I haven't read all posts, but I will say this:
1. The Ottoman Empire was founded by a Turkish tribe, which was named after one of its leaders.
2. Turkey is the succession state of the Ottoman Empire.
This is quite false. In European diplomatical correspondence, you will most often see the writers referring to the Ottomans as Turks.
I'm not saying that Desire is wrong, but her point could be used to describe many scenarios where similar conflicts have existed.
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Post by jerryspringer on Apr 25, 2008 16:35:37 GMT -5
Serbia claimed to be the succession state of Yugoslavia; then, of Serbia-Montenegro. Every union and federation has a redominant role. The Persian Empire involved many people of different cultures, but the elites and the power that ruled it, had Persian consciousness. The same goes for the Roman Empire, Soviet Union, and so on.
PETA reported that if someone becomes a vegetarian, he would save up to 8 animals per year. That, according to their statistics. However, since you're a fatty, I'm sure that you could save up to 16 animals per year. If you're around 20, that would make it around 320 animals! I refuse to believe that a dumbass and an ugly person like yourself, is worth keeping in turn for 320 animals. How the hell could the natural selection have missed your ugly mixure of parents? What about the Ottomans, who ruled your forefathers? Didn't they stop and say, 'Damn, that's one ugly bitch--let's get him!' Who can explain this to me?
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Post by yahadj on Apr 26, 2008 2:05:05 GMT -5
Anittas, what is that supposed to mean? I didn't get it quite right...
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Post by jerryspringer on Apr 26, 2008 3:04:56 GMT -5
It means that I don't like him.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 26, 2008 11:41:22 GMT -5
What u don't understand is that many documents regarding the Ottomans describe them as Muslim's.. also at the time any muslim coud be described as a Turk and visa versa. So that means NOTHING.
Also Anittas we may have come into being by defeating the ottomans but we are not a continuation of them
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 26, 2008 13:50:01 GMT -5
So you see even the hyper anti-Kastorianos Anittas gives me right on that. Get it guys and girls: Ottoman=>Turkish and there is no branching.
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