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Post by depletedreasons on May 30, 2008 5:55:12 GMT -5
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Post by rusebg on May 30, 2008 10:14:44 GMT -5
This is one of the saddest dates in European history.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 30, 2008 13:01:09 GMT -5
This is one of the saddest dates in European history. Specify which part of Europe! The Crusaders did the exact same thing in 1204. And I doubt there was much regret in the West when Constantinople fell the second time. Atleast there was no great aid from there ... except for some brave souls like the Genoese warrior who's name I cannot remember.
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Post by rusebg on May 30, 2008 19:25:02 GMT -5
This date brought Islam into Europe, people like Oghuz khan and Tartar Sause. This is the date when we all (except Albanians, I could guess) wentrcenturies behind our development, politically, economically and socially. And unlike the cvrusades (which Bulgars destroyed pretty conviniently), this Ottoman crap yoke lasted for centuries, thus turning the most advance part of Europe into the most retarded.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on May 30, 2008 21:12:07 GMT -5
It's amazing how Donnie puts a positive twist to some negative events.
Then again the Albanians prospered under the ottomans... so who am I fooling?
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Post by yahadj on May 30, 2008 21:39:34 GMT -5
This date brought Islam into Europe, people like Oghuz khan and Tartar Sause. This is the date when we all (except Albanians, I could guess) wentrcenturies behind our development, politically, economically and socially. And unlike the cvrusades (which Bulgars destroyed pretty conviniently), this Ottoman crap yoke lasted for centuries, thus turning the most advance part of Europe into the most retarded. Dude, it was more than 100 years since you were liberated. Are you still going to blame Turks for your backwardness? Still looking for scapegoats? Everybody is bored of your whining... Take Greece as an example. Those who had capacity used it and progressed. Start working and progress. Who is holding you? Isn't it time to face the reality? Bay Ganyovci, hayde da se mahate ot tuka che da ne vi se vurnem pak sus Osmanliyiite...
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Post by yahadj on May 30, 2008 21:41:14 GMT -5
Elhamdulillahi Rabbi alemin! ;D Maashallah!
PEACE
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Post by Toskaliku on May 31, 2008 0:39:23 GMT -5
So you do advocate the expansion of Islam by violent means Yahac? ;D
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2008 15:25:30 GMT -5
Ruse wrote;
I think you are exaggerating the importance of Constantinople's fall. It was symbolical more than anything. The Byzantine empire had already lost all of its former might and glory by 1453, being reduced to a little city-state that still retained the status of a (nominal) empire. All of the lands surrounding the city had already been captured, and the Ottomans were already conquoring land on the European side of the Bosphorus and had been doing so for over a century.
1) I do not know why you say "except Albanians". The Albanians' war with the Ottomans under the leadership of Skanderbeg, and more importantly their consequences, reduced Albania into an economic backwater. Atleast one fourth of our population was decimated through massacres or expulsions. The implications of this demographic catastroph were long felt; more so than in Bulgaria where the conquest was more swift and 'clean'.
2) I am, as you might see above, not a particular fan of the Ottoman empire. But we need to be fair. How exactly did the Balkans "go back several centuries"; in comparison to what, exactly? To take just one example, namely that of the landtied peasantry, this sociial class actually gained alot of rights they did not enjoy previously. Religious tolerance was alo far higher in the Ottoman empire than in the local realms that preceeded it. One need but to take a look into the Code of Dusan to realize that much. Or just recall the Inquisition.
Much of the contempt for the Ottoman empire in the Balkans is rooted in the fact that it was a Muslim empire.
Kanaris;
How did I put a 'positive' 'twist' to a negative event? I never applauded this nor condemned the sacking of Constantinople.
Yeah, very much .. but not quite as much as your fat clergy of greedy and privileged Phanariotes who were taken under the Sultan's wing.
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Post by OghuzKhan on Jun 3, 2008 17:59:59 GMT -5
This date brought Islam into Europe, people like Oghuz khan and Tartar Sause. This is the date when we all (except Albanians, I could guess) wentrcenturies behind our development, politically, economically and socially. And unlike the cvrusades (which Bulgars destroyed pretty conviniently), this Ottoman crap yoke lasted for centuries, thus turning the most advance part of Europe into the most retarded. Someone patient enough should teach this retard in detail that the Islam in Balkans predated the Ottomans and the Ottoman rule in Europe began nearly a century earlier and was firmly established by 1453, when the imperial city was conquered. By this date the Ottomans held territorities in Thrace, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Thessaly and parts of Serbia and Epirus. Thus, when the city was conquered, this had been done more from a Balkan base than vice-versa.
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 3, 2008 18:07:15 GMT -5
Edirne and Salonica had been held for about 50-60 years before
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Post by jerryspringer on Jun 3, 2008 18:14:19 GMT -5
In terms of culture, I believe it did. Many of the conquered nations lost its elites, scientific development was not patronized, and literature remained a religious matter. Compare how things were when the Byzantines had influence over the region: the Balkans could have easily matched the rest of the world in the areas mentioned above. It invested in art and possessed over superior technology in terms of warfare and architecture. All of this was transfered to the Ottomans who, instead of pursuing on that line, limited their investment on what would benefit their military and personal ego. Even if the Greeks held a high stature in official business, this only satured their own personal ambitions, and not that of the region.
The Romanian principalities, if we must count them as being part of the Balkans, were drained of their resources when the Porte imposed the princes to pay high tributes in return for keeping their domestic independence. Moreover, the throne was put on auction, which meant that the prince would have to tax the population even more, in order to be able to repay on his debt--which he would surely anquire when bidding for the throne.
Lastly, we were forced to demolish all of our fortifications, which made eastern Moldavia vulnerable to Tatar attacks. When the Tatars sacked Iasi in the 17th century, they even scrubbed the gold engraded in the city church, built by Albanian-born Vasile Lupu.
All of this lead to a population decline and an increase in serfdom. The Ottomans demanded monopoly on many of our products, which in turn limited our commercial development.
As for Albania, as you've mentioned above: a quarter of its population perished. The nationalism that started to make its entrance in the Balkans in the 18th century, much due to sentiments that the Ottoman yoke arose in people, lead to intolerance and constant conflict. What once was a conflict of interest between our leaders, became a conflict of religion and nationalism.
The Ottomans, unlike the Western powers, invested little resources in infrastructure and industry. If we take UK, for instance; no matter how much they exploited their colonies, they also left a positive legacy in terms of legal and currilicum traditions. Many past colonies, such as Ghana, India, and Pakistan, still use the system that the Brits brought with them.
Who is celebrating the Ottomans in the Balkans? Albanians and Bosniaks due to their common religion, but not others.
Don't forget the Greek church in Constantinople, Athos, and Jerusalem. Our church owned a quarter of the land in the Romanian principalities and much of its revenue went to the Greeks.
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Post by c0gnate on Jun 3, 2008 19:15:01 GMT -5
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 3, 2008 23:52:57 GMT -5
To Anittas: Actually, the Byzantines were not marked by development and progression, it was a highly conservative Orthodox Christian Empire that had a hard time coming to terms with any significant changes. They even had trouble adopting gun powder. They were not so interested in science, that was an interest that was being kept alive more in the east. Their main concern was religious orthodoxy and the church remained the focal point of the empire.
If anything, the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire were almost identical. The Ottomans had almost the same type of government and administration and a very similar conservative mentality. The only difference is that it was the Ottomans who survived into the modern era.
Im not preferring anything, I despise both equally when it comes to my people but also had an interest at one point of focusing on either one in college, ultimately to stick with nice ol' classics instead. Im not trying to demean either, but the interest in the two were very similar.
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Post by depletedreasons on Jun 4, 2008 0:27:05 GMT -5
This date brought Islam into Europe, people like Oghuz khan and Tartar Sause. This is the date when we all (except Albanians, I could guess) wentrcenturies behind our development, politically, economically and socially. And unlike the cvrusades (which Bulgars destroyed pretty conviniently), this Ottoman crap yoke lasted for centuries, thus turning the most advance part of Europe into the most retarded. Turk is the best thing that ever happened to you. You must thank the Turk for granting you an ethnic identity and a homeland.
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Post by depletedreasons on Jun 4, 2008 3:00:57 GMT -5
The Ottomans, unlike the Western powers, invested little resources in infrastructure and industry. If we take UK, for instance; no matter how much they exploited their colonies, they also left a positive legacy in terms of legal and currilicum traditions. Many past colonies, such as Ghana, India, and Pakistan, still use the system that the Brits brought with them. Who is celebrating the Ottomans in the Balkans? Albanians and Bosniaks due to their common religion, but not others. This stems from the fact that Ottomans never enjoyed large capitals raised upon the deliberate annihilation of hundreds of millions. You do not seem to appreciate India, Pakistan or China much. However, as a matter of fact, prior to the establishment of the British colonial rule, India was quite prosperous place, just like China was. That is why, There is "Taj Mahal" in India, "The Great Wall" and "the Forbidden Palace" in China. In the meantime, there was nothing serious to mention in the UK. After all, even those "Palace of Westminster" or "the Buckingham Palace" were funded with the taxes raised upon the skulls of tens of millions. In that sense, one Hindu might believe that those symbols of the UK might posses some cultural value as much as those NAZI camps built in places like Auschwitz, and it might be quite hard to argue him/her. British Rule in India and Nazi rule. What is the difference?nitawriter.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/british-rule-in-india-and-nazi-rule-what-is-the-difference/PS: It is quite normal that the Bosnians and Albanians feel close to the Turks after having witnessed the deliberate prosecution and massacres committed by their sophisticated European neighbors since the early 1800s.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jun 4, 2008 4:12:31 GMT -5
How is any of the crimes that you mention any different from the crimes committed by your people?
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Post by depletedreasons on Jun 4, 2008 4:40:39 GMT -5
How is any of the crimes that you mention any different from the crimes committed by your people? Magnitude and intensity of inhumane conditions applied on given subjects.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jun 4, 2008 5:08:53 GMT -5
Could you be more specific? How is that any more inhumane than what your Tatars did to others?
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 4, 2008 5:33:13 GMT -5
It is no coincidence when the turks came they called it the " Dark Ages " They say that if the turks never came to europe, man would of been to the moon a century or 2 earlier. They completely turned the clock back ages....Byzantines were using " Greek Fire " at the time and many other scientific accomplishments...what the turks brought was pure pillage and destructions.
No wonder the chinese built a wall to keep them out...unfortunatly for us...they knew something that we didnt.
The funny thing is that it took another greek to conquere constantinople. Mehmet was half Rum !!!!!
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