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Post by jerryspringer on Jun 4, 2008 6:04:30 GMT -5
With Greeks like Mehmed, who needs Turks?
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 4, 2008 6:08:58 GMT -5
hehe ^^^^ actually who needs muslims ? Thats what he was first and foremost, he put his nationality in the backburner....
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 4, 2008 6:23:38 GMT -5
You have to keep the city three more times to keep up with the Greeks. And I dont believe Kon/polis will still be Turkish in 3500 AD (perhaps it will be Kurdish then who knows ). And yes, the conquest of the Polis was the sadest day of the Balkans history. The answer to the question why the Balkan peninsula is in comparison to the rest of Europe still backward is the Ottoman rule which lasted in average 600 years. We need another 600 years to recover.
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Post by depletedreasons on Jun 4, 2008 6:45:47 GMT -5
Could you be more specific? How is that any more inhumane than what your Tatars did to others? You know the answer to the question you ask.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 4, 2008 6:48:30 GMT -5
Yet that culture, that progress was restricted to people of high status. The peasantry actually benefited from the Ottoman conquest.
Furthermore, the Ottoman empire did not send the peoples of the Balkans "back several centuries"; the people were mostly landtied serfs who actually enjoyed a relief from their forced labour when the Ottomans came. The Ottomans did not do much other than adopt the local administrative tradition with slight modifications and reliefs for the peasantry.
The only thing you could argue for is that we might have been deprived of the Renaissance. But then again, the Balkans was mostly within the sphere of Orthodoxy, and there is not much reason to believe that we would have progressed muh more if the Ottomans did not conquor our corner of Europe ... I mean look at Russia; the peasantry there was even more exposed and opressed than in the Balkans or elsewhere.
So that might only be true for the regions where Catholicism had a presence, such as Albania & Croatia.
I just urge you to read the Code of Dusan (Dusanova Zakonik) and see how 'advanced' the Balkanian principalities that preceeded the Ottomans were. Because they were the ones who were ruling the Balkans ... the Byzantines had already been reduced to a petty little city-state. Or read the accounts on the brualities of Vlad Tsepes who is still a symbol of undying evil.
I already repeated myself on this matter. See me celebrating? If not, stfu already. So thick ...
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 4, 2008 7:05:41 GMT -5
" The only thing you could argue for is that we might have been deprived of the Renaissance. But then again, the Balkans was mostly within the sphere of Orthodoxy, and there is not much reason to believe that we would have progressed muh more if the Ottomans did not conquor our corner of Europe " You have got to be kidding.... ^^^ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine" During its existence the Empire suffered numerous setbacks and losses of territory yet it remained one of the most powerful economic, cultural and military forces in Europe. The empire's influence also spread into North Africa and the near East for much of the Middle Ages. After a final recovery under the Komnenian dynasty in the 12th century the Empire slipped into a long decline culminating in the capture of Constantinople and the remaining Roman/Greek territories by the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century. During her thousand-year reign, the Empire, a bastion of Christianity and one of the prime trade centers in the world, helped to shield Western Europe from early Muslim expansion, provided a stable gold currency for the Mediterranean region, influenced the laws, political systems, and customs of much of Europe and the Middle East, and preserved much of the literary works and scientific knowledge of ancient Greece, Rome, and many other cultures. " guess who came along and screwed it all up... Using Russia is a real bad example...
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Post by jerryspringer on Jun 4, 2008 7:47:12 GMT -5
Culture, prior to the 20th century, was almost always available to the upper class. That's a given, but it's still important, because they were the ones to shaped the destiny of their country.
And why do you think that? The Catholics, in those days, were far more backward than the Byzantines. The Renaissance started in Italy due to their contact with the Arabs; but also due to the Greeks who fled Constantinople, and who brought with them the classics.
The situation in the Romanian principalities were reversed. Prior to the Ottoman invasion, we had free peasantry. The wars and the high taxes forced us to bring in Gypsies from Bulgaria and enslave them, so that we could cope with the productivity that we badly needed. This, in turn, forced our own peasants to sell themselves into serfdom, because they couldn't compete with the enslaved Gypsies. The situation of the Gypsies, today, is also a legacy of the Ottoman days.
Dracula was a byproduct of the Ottomans. His mentality and lack of emphaty was formed at the Porte, where he matured. At the age of 7, he was made to witness an execution. While at the Porte, the sons of the Serbian king were blinded because their father broke the alliance with the Ottomans. He was in the exact situation as they were and expected to meet the same fate. I've read about 5 books on him and along the years, I've shared many of my thoughts on his deeds, on this forum. It seems that you don't brother to read my posts at all, if you've missed those discussions.
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Post by yahadj on Jun 5, 2008 9:04:05 GMT -5
Saddest day for losers... Right! But one big step in the history of Islam and Turks! Whoever wants to whine let them do that. What else they can do!? You got to let the pain out... It is good for the mental health. Prevents depression... But after that try to take some lessons, will you?
Only better ones deserve the goodies...History don't keep the bad guys in power for long time... Elhamdulillah! ;D
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 5, 2008 9:15:18 GMT -5
Depression over what...a city I have never been in...and which I know just from books and stories?
555 years is nothing....thats a second in earths history....if you are smug about it, its you who is in lack of mental health.
I bet you wont keep the city as long as we did. You even didnt found it...you are just some short tresspasser....
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 5, 2008 14:07:17 GMT -5
I don't get it Yahac. If you're saying Turks are better than Greeks, that is one thing. But if you are referring to Mehmed II 'Fatih', he wasn't a particularly nice fellow. Rather evil I'd say. But then again he was half Greek ;D
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Kanaris
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This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 5, 2008 16:38:17 GMT -5
^ Ouch..that's gotta sting.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 5, 2008 21:14:34 GMT -5
Saddest day for losers... Right! But one big step in the history of Islam and Turks! Whoever wants to whine let them do that. What else they can do!? You got to let the pain out... It is good for the mental health. Prevents depression... But after that try to take some lessons, will you? Only better ones deserve the goodies...History don't keep the bad guys in power for long time... Elhamdulillah! ;D "History dont keep the bad guys in power for long time?" Is that why the Byzantine empire laster for over one thousand years? Is that also why the Ottoman empire only lasted 600 years max? Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Here let me get you the last sentence of the BIBLE WHICH YOU ADDED TO. After all, the Koran is only an addition to the Bible which is written by your child molesting prophet Muhamad. Last three verses of the bible. "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things, says, 'yes I am coming soon.' Amen come Lord Jesus. The grace of the lord Jesus be with Gods people." It does not matter what you say or what you do, because there is a pretty d*mn good chance you will be burning in hell for all of eternity. God help you. I will pray for your soul, and when you die maybe you can have a descent Christian burial. By the way, do you think dragging the name of Islam through the mud like you do is a victory for Turks?
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Post by yahadj on Jun 6, 2008 2:57:19 GMT -5
OK. You tell me whos words are those. Are those the words of God for sure or those were the words (testimonies) of some unknown authors claimed to be the companions of Jesus (PBUH)? Were those the testimonies of the real companions? And even if they were are they authentic? What would be the difference between our Hadiths and Bible?
Unfortunately Paul and some of the Roman priests that came way later than Jesus (PBUH) has played some devilish acts to change the meaning of the real Bible just to make it fit to the taste of the Roman emperor.
Your Bible and the fundamentals of the religion of Prophet Jesus(PBUH) (for he never claimed to be a deity, he only meatphorcally said I am the son and you are the children of God, lets all pray to Him) was twisted so much that only a few among you will be granted salvation. There is only One God and NO partners to Him at all. No sons or daughters to share his throne!!! And the Holy Spirit is only a tool of God, as much as are the Words of God. Who would be in Hell? The one who worships God and does good deeds all his life or the one who claims partners to Him and worship humans instead, and good deeds doesn't have any value to him whatsoever?
May Allah give you a guidince to the right path! Because there is only one religion of God Almighty since Adam and Eve. And that is the submission to the will of God Almighty and worshiping Him only! That is what Islam is all about. The word Islam means submission to the will of God. That was all Judaism and Christianity were about in the beginning, before they were twisted by the followers knowingly or unknowingly. Thus, Islam is not a new religion. It is the last affirmation to the right path and the last revelation of Allah. All prophets of God were Muslim - Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Jacob, Ismael, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Mohammed and hundreds of others... Because they called people to submit only to the will of God Almighty...The path of the Truth was always the same for the rightous people since the beginning.
I wish you come to the right path and achieve Salvation, too. You can start by simply coming to belive there is One Creator, One God which is Eternal and Supreme, definately not in human form (why would God resemble a simple creation as humans?), who doesn't begot and is not begotten, who is way above all the creations put together. Believe he has the full authority above all creations. He gives you the live and he takes it away. All of us will go back to Him in the day of Judgement to account for our deeds. Then, restore the status of Jesus as a mighty prophet of God (who actually never claimed to be a God to begin with). And if you stive to do good deeds, then you may count on the Justice and Mercy of Almighty God that He may grant you Salvation in Eternal Paradise. Inshallah!
PEACE PEACE
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 6, 2008 6:45:04 GMT -5
Yahac...there is no hell....and nobody will burn. Thats a load of crap for ppl to be scared and follow closed minded societies. We are living in Hell right now...when we die, nobody knows what will happen. There is something out there...but to say its Islam is definitly wrong.
You have ppl killing in islams name and yet noone ever denounces their actions. That my friend...is purely fukked up
the camelscrewers blew up the danish embassy over cartoons. Where is this progressivness the ottomans brought ? LOL !
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 6, 2008 6:58:19 GMT -5
OK. You tell me whos words are those. Are those the words of God for sure or those were the words (testimonies) of some unknown authors claimed to be the companions of Jesus (PBUH)? Were those the testimonies of the real companions? And even if they were are they authentic? What would be the difference between our Hadiths and Bible? Unfortunately Paul and some of the Roman priests that came way later than Jesus (PBUH) has played some devilish acts to change the meaning of the real Bible just to make it fit to the taste of the Roman emperor. Your Bible and the fundamentals of the religion of Prophet Jesus(PBUH) (for he never claimed to be a deity, he only meatphorcally said I am the son and you are the children of God, lets all pray to Him) was twisted so much that only a few among you will be granted salvation. There is only One God and NO partners to Him at all. No sons or daughters to share his throne!!! And the Holy Spirit is only a tool of God, as much as are the Words of God. Who would be in Hell? The one who worships God and does good deeds all his life or the one who claims partners to Him and worship humans instead, and good deeds doesn't have any value to him whatsoever? May Allah give you a guidince to the right path! Because there is only one religion of God Almighty since Adam and Eve. And that is the submission to the will of God Almighty and worshiping Him only! That is what Islam is all about. The word Islam means submission to the will of God. That was all Judaism and Christianity were about in the beginning, before they were twisted by the followers knowingly or unknowingly. Thus, Islam is not a new religion. It is the last affirmation to the right path and the last revelation of Allah. All prophets of God were Muslim - Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Jacob, Ismael, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Mohammed and hundreds of others... Because they called people to submit only to the will of God Almighty...The path of the Truth was always the same for the rightous people since the beginning. I wish you come to the right path and achieve Salvation, too. You can start by simply coming to belive there is One Creator, One God which is Eternal and Supreme, definately not in human form (why would God resemble a simple creation as humans?), who doesn't begot and is not begotten, who is way above all the creations put together. Believe he has the full authority above all creations. He gives you the live and he takes it away. All of us will go back to Him in the day of Judgement to account for our deeds. Then, restore the status of Jesus as a mighty prophet of God (who actually never claimed to be a God to begin with). And if you stive to do good deeds, then you may count on the Justice and Mercy of Almighty God that He may grant you Salvation in Eternal Paradise. Inshallah! PEACE PEACE HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA A Turk is forced to eat pork by a Bulgarian priest. uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cXeTvAmZweU
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 6, 2008 7:26:20 GMT -5
Haha bravo!
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Post by yahadj on Jun 6, 2008 7:48:28 GMT -5
It seems you have been to the other side and you know for sure what is there! If this life is already Hell what makes you think there can't be a Hell in the afterlife?
My religion to me, your religion to you! If you don't believe that is your own bussines. After all, everybody is accountable for himself/herself. Everybody has one life, one chance. Use it as you find appropriate.
And people kill each other everyday for all kind of stupid reasons. For money, for jealousy, for fun, for oil, for democracy, for socialism, for power, for fascism, for Iraqi "freedom", for racism, for love, for hate, you name it... A few ignorant deviated people would do that in the name of religion, too. You know Crusaders, Bin Laden, and etc. Human being is a weak creature. Most of the murders are not justified with any reasonable cause. What are you going to do!?
This is life. If there is no Justice in this life, there must be one in afterlife. No worries...
PEACE
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Post by yahadj on Jun 6, 2008 7:50:13 GMT -5
That is right. When a real logic is required then you get a thought block. Poor thing... May Allah opens up your mind and yuor heart to the Truth!
PEACE
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Post by depletedreasons on Jun 6, 2008 8:08:05 GMT -5
You have ppl killing in islams name and yet noone ever denounces their actions. That my friend...is purely fukked up the camel screwers blew up the danish embassy over cartoons. Where is this progressivness the ottomans brought ? LOL ! Are those Americans who exterminated hundreds of thousand civilians in Iraq based upon some "falsified information" were also Muslims? What about the Russians who exterminated the hundreds of thousands of Chechens in Caucasus back in 1990s? Do you also recall those Serbs who did not hesitate to execute genocide on the Bosniaks? Were they also Muslims? You talk as if those Christian dominated countries evolved heaps since the Medieval times, but if they were, then why did they exterminate hundreds of millions within the last several centuries? why do they have so many weapons of mass destruction if they do not crave for killing more people? and why do they keep on polluting the enviroment more than the others? Why do they still invade other countries and kill hundreds of thousands of people? Because, those are the progressive ones?
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 6, 2008 8:48:35 GMT -5
That is right. When a real logic is required then you get a thought block. Poor thing... May Allah opens up your mind and yuor heart to the Truth! PEACE No, I am not going to have a philosophical discussion with you about your Islam. You provided an opinion and I can respect that. NOTICE THE WORD OPINION? Funny that a Genocide denier, a bigot, and someone who glorifies the violent expansion of Islam is going to somehow say that he hopes Allah puts me on the right path. You work wonders for the name Islam.
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