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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 5, 2009 5:26:22 GMT -5
So you mean that If Turkey accepts the opprobrious actions of the past century it would be a confession of defeat...? I simply ask you as whether you could present any example or not. Could you give us another example? So, what is your point? Turks did bad things and you did not? Istanbul is just fine, and I prefer living here to any other location you could suggest. You should start to care since you are now one of them just like you used to be one of us for 500 years.
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 5, 2009 5:48:55 GMT -5
you always provide vague answers Jan, plus you always answer with another question. Lets be honest for once. Greece doesnt come close to you guys...well maybe alexander the great comes close to mass destruction. But even then he was remembered for bringing light and knowledge to the world whereas the ottomans set us back 500 yrs.
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 5, 2009 5:49:55 GMT -5
dont get me wrong, i like turks alot and have respect for you guys. I dont consider you directly responsible. I mean that as well..
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 5, 2009 5:54:41 GMT -5
So you mean that If Turkey accepts the opprobrious actions of the past century it would be a confession of defeat...? I simply ask you as whether you could present any example or not. Could you give us another example? Another example of a country recognised its genocidal acts...? After Germany only Turkey can... show examples of such massive crimes... its your turn now... So, what is your point? Turks did bad things and you did not? Lets take an example...I think Inonu/Kemal et al agreed with Venizelos to keep in the two countries the relatively numerous communities of Muslims(Turks,Pomaks,Gypsies) in Thrace and of Greeks in Polis and Imvros and Tenedos...I suppose you know the numbers then and today...and I'm waiting to read your comment... Istanbul is just fine, and I prefer living here to any other location you could suggest. Continuing like this, Polis would not differ from Diyarbakir...its pitty... I think Kemal's first goal was to enter this "western group" by all means...If you want to return to your osman-asian orientation tell it to EU because the whole Turkey's struggle to enter the group is getting boring...
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 5, 2009 6:00:03 GMT -5
Im not fond of Venizelos. I think it was a poor decision to agree with turkey regarding the use of religion for population exchange. I also think Venizelos is indirectly responsible for the loss of hellenism in asia minor. That was a little off topic but anyway...i saw his name and wanted to get that off my chest. And yes...our numbers in turkey is practically zero while the " turks " in greece are flourishing. I wonder why that is... hey Jan, if i was to go claim my house in kadikory..do you think i can get it back ?
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 5, 2009 6:07:08 GMT -5
Venizelos was reasonable, the other who pretented to be the new Alexanders were the reason for the catastrophy. They thought that they were ready to send the Turks back to the "Red apple-tree" and they confused reality with myths....crazy things... I like Turks too. I think that if they hadn't some adhesions with some things(see Kemal and his practises) they would be more debatable...and they also don;t have the complexes of the ex-osman balkanians....
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 5, 2009 7:58:35 GMT -5
you always provide vague answers Jan, plus you always answer with another question. That is your personal conclusion, I have to say. As you can also notice, there is huge time gap between Alexander and the Modern Greeks, and I am not interested in filling the gaps for you. Perhaps your forefathers were already backward, and that is why, backward Ottomans suceeded to rule your forefathers for some 500 years.
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 5, 2009 8:08:28 GMT -5
now now Jan...lets not be hostile ;D
we are just discussing...
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 5, 2009 8:30:14 GMT -5
Another example of a country recognised its genocidal acts...? After Germany only Turkey can... show examples of such massive crimes... its your turn now... You are the one setting examples, but so far, you came up with nothing worth for taking into consideration. There are 15.000 Rums in Turkey, and most of the Rums emigrated to European/Western countries between 1950-1980 period. You must have misunderstood M. Kemal. He only wanted Turks to be the wolves in sheep clothings, and apparently he suceeded it. By the way, since 2001, the Turkish support for EU is in steady decline and even if it is not, will you want Turkey to becomes an EU member? I do not think you do, even if you do, the rest of Europe does not. Either way, I personally do not support the idea of joining the EU. After all, it is not beneficial for Turkey or the Turks.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 5, 2009 8:34:59 GMT -5
hey Jan, if i was to go claim my house in kadikory..do you think i can get it back ? I am not an expert. If you have some document proving the ownership of the house, then you should ask for its validity to some lawyers from Turkey.
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 5, 2009 8:45:39 GMT -5
documents ?! Jan a turkish family saved my grandmother. Her other brothers and sisters were not that lucky. They left without taking anything with them.
but, i iwill investigate. I already asked a turksh friend of mine if he can investigate the archives for title ownership. I dont think he had the time to do this for me, but one day i will probably try to do it myself. BTW, he is a very good friend of mine.
the records were written in ottoman writing and he has a hard time reading it..
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 5, 2009 8:52:09 GMT -5
documents ?! Jan a turkish family saved my grandmother. Her other brothers and sisters were not that lucky. They left without taking anything with them. but, i iwill investigate. I already asked a turksh friend of mine if he can investigate the archives for title ownership. I dont think he had the time to do this for me, but one day i will probably try to do it myself. BTW, he is a very good friend of mine. the records were written in ottoman writing and he has a hard time reading it.. Ottoman writing? It must be pretty old. Do you know that all claims were settled between Greece and Turkey in line with the population exchange agreement? However, it is best if you ask to some lawyer who is specialized in such subjects.
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 5, 2009 9:04:39 GMT -5
yes...the only item i have is a picture of my grandparents and on the back of it is " arabic " i think my friend called it osmanli writing. I will see...thanks for your advise.. who knows, one day il be close enough to get season pass for fenerbahce team
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 5, 2009 13:21:20 GMT -5
Patrinos, you are saying you are not eurocentric, but the way you are talking shows you are. You are basing your writing based on European Western and Christian thoughts. You are not considering non-Christian European thoughts.
And Chalkedon, the Ottomans were the most advanced in Europe and in the world. So your saying that Greece is backwards now b/c of this does not make sense. It was only during the last 100-200 years, the Ottomans did not advance.
Yes, I am not an expert either on documents. But you should be able to show some validity to lawyers in Turkey if you have documents.
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 5, 2009 13:21:55 GMT -5
correction non Christian non - European thoughts.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 5, 2009 13:31:16 GMT -5
Patrinos, you are saying you are not eurocentric, but the way you are talking shows you are. You are basing your writing based on European Western and Christian thoughts. You are not considering non-Christian European thoughts. And Chalkedon, the Ottomans were the most advanced in Europe and in the world. So your saying that Greece is backwards now b/c of this does not make sense. It was only during the last 100-200 years, the Ottomans did not advance. Yes, I am not an expert either on documents. But you should be able to show some validity to lawyers in Turkey if you have documents. Well.... ;D...what do you mean by "the Ottomans were the most advanced in Europe and in the world"...if you really believe it please write it again to understand with whome i'm talking with....?
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 5, 2009 13:49:19 GMT -5
There are 15.000 Rums in Turkey, and most of the Rums emigrated to European/Western countries between 1950-1980 period. Firstly there aren't 15000 Romioi in Turkey...they are maximum 5.000 old men and women... And they just "emigrated"...in order from a important community of 120.000 Greeks then to have today less than 5.000... Some things happened meanwhile... And I suppose you know how many Muslims there were in Thrace in '20s and how they're today....................
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 5, 2009 16:12:02 GMT -5
When Europe was in the dark ages, people had the black plaque, people did not shower and were in poverty, The Ottoman Empire was the most advanced place.
Also, Greece doesn't even acknowledge the existence of a Turkish Minority. They say there are Muslim only.
TURKISH
Human rights violations in the education field affect the largest number of individuals and have done the most to foster the Turkish minority's relative underdevelopment. Schools are overcrowded and poorly funded compared to those attended by ethnic Greeks. The quality of the teachers is quite low. Ethnic Turks educated in Turkish universities, which the minority believes are the best qualified to teach, have not been hired for a number of years. On the other hand, graduates of the Thessaloniki Pedagogical Academy (EPATH)-the job candidates preferred by the Greek state-are poorly educated and have a weak command of the Turkish language. Furthermore, community members claim, not without some justification that the EPATH-trained teachers act as "ideological overseers." Textbooks are decades out of date because Greece and Turkey have been unable to implement a 1968 protocol that would have allowed each country to supply textbooks to their respective minority. The two Turkish-language high schools can provide only a fraction of the needed places, resulting in a disproportionate dropout rate. Greek officials fall back on the Treaty of Lausanne, which only obligates them to provide primary education in Turkish, ignoring the fact that Greek law mandates a minimum of nine years of education. State repression takes other forms as well. Members of the ethnic Turkish minority also complain of police surveillance, discrimination in public employment, and restrictions on freedom of expression.
Greece's attitude toward the ethnic Turkish minority is nowhere more evident then in its continued official denial of the Turkish identity of the community. Greece only accepts the existence of a "Muslim" minority in Thrace and aggressively prosecutes and bans organizations and individuals who seek to call themselves "Turkish." While it is indeed true that much of the minority is of mixed ethnic origins, it overwhelmingly claims an ethnic Turkish identity and wants to be referred to as such. The Greek government points to the Treaty of Lausanne, which speaks only about a "Muslim minority." Past government policy, however, negates such a justification. In the early 1950s, during a period of rapprochement between Greece and Turkey, the Greek government itself ordered the use of "Turk" and "Turkish" to refer to the minority, rather than "Muslim."
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 5, 2009 16:28:23 GMT -5
Haven't Inonu...aka Kemal signed about a " Muslim" minority??? In that minority are included Turks,Pomaks and Gypsies and they have all the rights...they even have their ...muftis...that have also the role of the jurist for matters among muslims...thing unacceptable in a European country....!!!!!!...that is a medieval thing...They have schools in turkish language...they have the ability to enter the universities much easier than the rest...etc..etc.. The question is why there are today in Thrace more than 100.000 Muslims when after the Laussane Treaty there were about 86.000....and in Turkey there are less than 4-5.000 Greeks today when in 20's there were about 150.000... ??/
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 5, 2009 17:26:18 GMT -5
Yes, but they do not classify Turks as a Minority, they lump all the Muslims together as one group, thus denying each separate ethnic group their rights.
In Turkey, there are rights afforded to Greeks, Armenians, etc. and Turkey recognizes them as each a separate minority group, it does not lump them together as a Christian group. Greeks in Turkey get educated in Greek schools.
Many Greeks immigrated from Greece and from Turkey to other countries. Most Greeks chose to leave due to economic reasons.
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