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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 1, 2009 12:44:36 GMT -5
I was having a conversation with a Balkan friend a while back. Now admittedly, Turkish, Bosnian and Albanian girls are sort of notorious for being harder to hook up with than say Serb, Croatian, Greek or Bulgarian girls. This girl told me that in fact she doesnt do one night stands with guys or dance the "grinding" style (basically the popular dry hump whereby a girl continually rubs her butt on your croch) because she has "dignity". She reportedly is a liberated atheist with a hatred for a religion and "western" in character. Yet she will not do one of the more common western culture motifs: sleeping with random guys. She argued that that was degrading. Also found degrading the idea of cheating on a significant other. She used words like honor and dignity to characterize her personality.
My argument to her was this: if you use concepts like "honor" or "dignity" then you clearly are not westernized since these are antiquated village notions and forms of social control. These concepts are not aspects of a liberal individualistic society. My argument was: how can something you enjoy be degrading? In fact these are acts of inhibition that limit personal freedoms by casting the person into various social restrictions. Ultimately the biggest worry for this and other girls/guys is what others will think of them, a continuation of the honor-shame complex of the Med. A truly western person will act as he/she pleases and will not limit himself/herself to any honor-shame complexes. I further added that these ideas are in it of themselves examples of how she still retains the Islamic characteristics that she inherited from her society. That she is uncomfortably straddling two worlds, one that many Albanian girls also straddle: eastern conservatism and western liberalism. That they are caught between two opposed worlds. Many Alb girls I know are 20-23 and still virgins, waiting for the proper guy. Others have been dating the same guy since highschool or college. They go to dance clubs in revealing clothes, but hang around together in exclusive female groups, not allowing any guys to come close or dance with them randomly... in effect they are restricting their social freedom. They use the ideas: "honor"/"dignity" to exemplify their life.
So what do you guys think? My personal view is that the only way to truly liberate one's self and to live a free individualistic lifestyle is to remove all social/gender boundaries. Concepts of honor and dignity or shame are not part of a free lifestyle.
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Post by leshte on Nov 1, 2009 13:02:27 GMT -5
This is an individual choice. The thing is that in the west you are allowed to have a choice. In Arab countries you are killed. So in the west one has the choice between hedonism and "honor"( whatever that means is different to different people). So I don't agree that being a westerner means getting drunk and being slutty. It also doesn't mean that being slutty means you are a liberal. I'm pretty sure there's hardcore republican chicks that are real slutty. That being said the terms liberal or conservative are too vague and so are the terms honor and dignity. They mean different things to different people in different places and different times The notions and meaning of these words are too vague and too open for interpretation by different people. So its all relative. There are no set categories and notions about honor/dignity or barriers that would set someone free or liberate someone in the west. It is all subjective and depends on the individual. In the west what sets someone free might be considered a form of mental imprisonment by others. Like I said nothing is absolute; relativity rules this world even on social issues and human behaviors.
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Nov 1, 2009 13:11:43 GMT -5
So what do you guys think? My suggestion don't be liberal and degenerate be sophisticated to your country's and to your family good traditions. 10-15 years difference men older than women is perfect for marriage couples
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 1, 2009 13:14:01 GMT -5
Well, both honor and dignity imply a sense of shame. Shame can only be your feeling towards the perception other have of you. If you do something dishonorable or indignant you receive shame and therefore you are viewed differently. These are two very village like concepts.
I dont mean getting shitty. I mean if you claim to live an open lifestyle where you love to go to clubs, drink but yet claim things like "I have dignity therefore I do not do one night stands" these are concepts that are opposed. Clubs are not environments where dignity becomes a factor. With American girls u can go up to one and just start dancing and she will be fine for the most part (atleast in the college environment, club life in the city can be a little more restrictive, you have to ask more often) but with Alb girls or a number of other Balkan girls you always see them closed in, if a guy comes near them they freak out and move away.
These are clearly signs of a confused person.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2009 14:55:03 GMT -5
Clearly the only person confused here is you.Ever heard of morals..... think about it for a minute.... What you're saying is if one is an atheist and adheres to the western culture she should grind her ass on your crotch.... Reread your post.... As for those earlier girls... that won't 'hump'..guess who makes up the prostitute and night club population of Athens?
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Post by alb12345 on Nov 1, 2009 15:00:34 GMT -5
As for those earlier girls... that won't 'hump'..guess who makes up the prostitute and night club population of Athens?[/quote]
Let me guess the pushti lapdancers aka gay lords ;D ;D ;D
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 1, 2009 16:23:52 GMT -5
Clearly the only person confused here is you.Ever heard of morals..... think about it for a minute.... What you're saying is if one is an atheist and adheres to the western culture she should grind her ass on your crotch.... Reread your post.... As for those earlier girls... that won't 'hump'..guess who makes up the prostitute and night club population of Athens? Morals are also a form of social control in my opinion. What are "morals" really? Why does a certain act constitute as immoral. As I see it, morals regarding self-expression are also subjective and are yet another form of social control. For instance, a year ago pictures of the Socialist leader Edi Rama came out that were taken at a nude beach. I found nothing wrong with it. In fact, I sort of admired Edi as a true example of a westernized Albanian who is free, thinks freely and acts freely. Other Albs argued it was "immoral" and that he is "immoral" because of it. I personally agree with with leshte on this issue: everything is relative. But once again, I see morals as a form of inhibition enacted by culture. What I am saying that there is anything wrong with being inhibitive, but what I do not agree with is the pretension to liberality while expressing characteristics that are clearly not. To be in a sort of limbo between complete self-expression and self-inhibition. For instance. A couple of Albanian girls dress very skanky and go to the club. They dance around with each other and have fun yet when it comes to talking to guys they sink back into their conservative culture. When sex becomes involved they cannot fully express themselves because they come from an inhibited culture of honor-shame complexes.
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Post by jonleka on Nov 2, 2009 1:24:13 GMT -5
Its tru balkan girls are harder to get but melty i think you are used with american girls. You have to be a wolf with balkan girls if you know what a mean they wont go for you in a flock.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 2, 2009 6:48:20 GMT -5
Nice write up. Toskali Ballisti's perspective sounds completely logical to me. To me it's a completely logical atheistic perspective.
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 2, 2009 6:58:57 GMT -5
I was having a conversation with a Balkan friend a while back. Now admittedly, Turkish, Bosnian and Albanian girls are sort of notorious for being harder to hook up with than say Serb, Croatian, Greek or Bulgarian girls. This girl told me that in fact she doesnt do one night stands with guys or dance the "grinding" style (basically the popular dry hump whereby a girl continually rubs her butt on your croch) because she has "dignity". She reportedly is a liberated atheist with a hatred for a religion and "western" in character. Yet she will not do one of the more common western culture motifs: sleeping with random guys. She argued that that was degrading. Also found degrading the idea of cheating on a significant other. She used words like honor and dignity to characterize her personality. My argument to her was this: if you use concepts like "honor" or "dignity" then you clearly are not westernized since these are antiquated village notions and forms of social control. These concepts are not aspects of a liberal individualistic society. My argument was: how can something you enjoy be degrading? In fact these are acts of inhibition that limit personal freedoms by casting the person into various social restrictions. Ultimately the biggest worry for this and other girls/guys is what others will think of them, a continuation of the honor-shame complex of the Med. A truly western person will act as he/she pleases and will not limit himself/herself to any honor-shame complexes. So what do you guys think? My personal view is that the only way to truly liberate one's self and to live a free individualistic lifestyle is to remove all social/gender boundaries. Concepts of honor and dignity or shame are not part of a free lifestyle. You know what Melty? Even the most individualistic person has shame. If not,why do people bother making themselves look presentable when their out in public? Clothes,neat hair etc. If they are totally individualistic,they wouldnt give a damn at all except if they are breaking the law. As a Malaysian,before I came to understand more about Western society,I thought westerners are just liberal,individualistic,generally. But the more I learn,I realise,that sure,Eastern Europeans are "Western" by Malaysian standards,but I notice,only for the more famous "European/Western/White people thing". If you take the liberalism further,where you have gay marriage and adoption and tolerance somewhat of homosexuals,that's mostly in West Europe,especially the north. That's the contrast there! I notice for Eastern Europeans and even Americans,there's still that Authoritarian thing going on. Why I'm talking about this? Its because I remember reading here that your against gay marriage. I realise the homo thing is an important marker to see the liberalism of a person. As for that girl who refuse to sleep around,who knows? She could be cautious about STD's or that she has an image of whats appealing of a person and to her,girls sleeping around is like eeewwww soo inferior..... Just an example.... But like what leshte said,I think when it comes to the sleeping around thing,thats abit hard to figure out,because sex is a very private thing.Hence,subjective
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 2, 2009 7:57:02 GMT -5
Melty, I believe what you wrote earlier could just as well be reversed. You say that concepts like honour and dignity are means of social control. If by being 'western' and 'liberal' in this case is standardized with sleeping around and acting promiscuous, and people who don't conform to this standard are consequently left outside and labeled 'backward', what kind of liberty is that? Isn't that also a form of social control, just in the opposite direction? Is someone who is driven towards such behaviour against her/his inner will trully 'free'?
As I see it. the sexually promiscuous occurence in liberalized western socities is more a byproduct than the essence of a liberal and individualistic society. The essence of it is choice. The right to choose lifestyle, which doesn't have to conform with the promiscuous college lifestyle, but could be more chaste. I think you got caught in her choice of words more than anything, as there are also many typically western girls with no background in the honour-shame culture, who still don't feel happy with being sexually promiscuous but also see it as degrading ... theirs might be a different motivation, but it still comes down to liberty of choice.
You also commented on morals. Sure, morals are a matter of subjectivity, but then again, what isn't in social matters? Objectivity is somethign which can only be assigned to science in nature & biology, while humanistic fields can only be subjective. This includes your interpretation of what's really a liberal individualistic society. I see choice as the essence of it... perhaps terms like honour and dignity are old-fashioned, but the freedom to employ them as long as they don't affect a second part (except in the case of self defense) is real freedom. Just as someone else might choose to ignore them and act out on their lusts or whatever.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 2, 2009 8:24:57 GMT -5
^+1
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 2, 2009 10:04:51 GMT -5
Im not saying it is standardized, but in a way you can see some aspects of it. For one thing, conservative sexuality is a byproduct of social inhibitance most of the time occurring because of inherited social restrictions of a society. You dont really have to be fully free, but the continuous use of such terminology to characterize the actions I speak of is what reeks of it. That is my main focus, not necessarily what you do, but the way you characterize it.
I think the women in western societies who are also afraid are held back by similar cultural issues. In many places, those girls usually come from more restrictive backgrounds.
This I disagree on, simply because you are harking back to antiquated social structures. Most people who employ these terms dont do it out of some choice, but out of some inherited inhibition. Like Muslim women who use the term "its my freedom of choice to wear the headscarf". Its a belief that you are doing it out of your own free will when really its something you internally feel you need to do.
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Post by epiroti on Nov 2, 2009 17:17:11 GMT -5
My argument to her was this: if you use concepts like "honor" or "dignity" then you clearly are not westernized since these are antiquated village notions and forms of social control.
... I personally agree with with leshte on this issue: everything is relative. But once again, I see morals as a form of inhibition enacted by culture.
... how can something you enjoy be degrading? In fact these are acts of inhibition that limit personal freedoms by casting the person into various social restrictions. ... A truly western person will act as he/she pleases and will not limit himself/herself to any honor-shame complexes.
My personal view is that the only way to truly liberate one's self and to live a free individualistic lifestyle is to remove all social/gender boundaries. Concepts of honor and dignity or shame are not part of a free lifestyle.
If you do something dishonorable or indignant you receive shame and therefore you are viewed differently. These are two very village like concepts. When thinking about this whole issue, I like to divide the whole thing into two parts. The first is the psychological aspect/background: the evolution of the person's beliefs. The second is the philosophical: how sound are the beliefs. I agree with you wen you say that 'those girls are not trully westernised'. Keeping the whole concept of 'being western' out of this for a moment. Obviously the environment those girls grew up with will affect their beliefs and behaviour. They are caught between (at least) two forces of influence: their home culture, and their new country's culture. And so are all of us, to different extents considering that the people who influenced each of us are different. Their explanation for why they obey or have such beliefs however are usually rationalisations/justifications. This is very human, and those people/girls shouldn't feel bad about it, because we all function like that. By being aware of the fact that people model important figures in childhood, and get influenced by cultures, makes the understanding of the issue much simpler. This plays a far bigger role than the logical soundness of our beliefs. The second part, the philosophical aspect is perhaps a little more challenging to discuss. You argue for complete individual autonomy/independence of action, from what I understand. A noble ideal, and one that I am very fond of. But this "freedom", if taken too far, it will stop benefiting the individual, and start to harm him instead, thus defeating the initial intention of becoming more independent in order to gain more from life. It can initially be benefitial to us to stop caring about what others think, but if we do it to the extent that it harms our reputation, then we can start losing more than we gained. And I personally would analyse any dilema along the lines of what I explained so far. Of course there would be a few restrictions added to the process, like loyalty, courage, etc... so not everything is "mathematical". At the end of the day, we live in a social matrix, and we will be judged by people. Just like we ourselves judge other people. So I don't agree with your concept of: A truly western person will act as he/she pleases and will not limit himself/herself to any honor-shame complexes. I guess another thing that we could discuss is what it means to have dignity and honour when discussing sexual morals. But regardless of the outcome of such a debate, it wouldn't affect what I wrote above. Sex is enjoyable and people are slow to change their values on such things - most will stick to their point of view and get emotional when it gets challenged, clouding their jugdement, etc. I think that being conservative in sexual matters in quite a good thing, because it shows self-control (I know, you could argue that it isn't self-control, but simply following ancient morals), and because such a habit makes things easier when in a relationship (potential partners wouldn't view you as an "animal in heat" 24/7, thus trust you with more ease). I don't think that girls should start getting defensive when a guy starts talking to them - even though the motive of his approach is easy to guess - and she should play the game, and pull out at the point that she doesn't feel convinced. Overly-defensiveness sounds a bit pathological to me. And I guess their "mini-skirt" style of dressing is nothing more than a way to get some attention, which usually every girl/woman needs. But it is our mistake to assume that she somehow has to sleep around just because she dresses like that. There is a big difference between the two (unless she is dressed like a wh0re).
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 2, 2009 20:26:36 GMT -5
The phrase 'what kind of girl you think I am' came from America....
I fail to see what being 'western' and and having no shame or bounds has in common.
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Post by ILIRI I MADH on Nov 2, 2009 20:36:34 GMT -5
I was having a conversation with a Balkan friend a while back. Now admittedly, Turkish, Bosnian and Albanian girls are sort of notorious for being harder to hook up with than say Serb, Croatian, Greek or Bulgarian girls. This girl told me that in fact she doesnt do one night stands with guys or dance the "grinding" style (basically the popular dry hump whereby a girl continually rubs her butt on your croch) because she has "dignity". She reportedly is a liberated atheist with a hatred for a religion and "western" in character. Yet she will not do one of the more common western culture motifs: sleeping with random guys. She argued that that was degrading. Also found degrading the idea of cheating on a significant other. She used words like honor and dignity to characterize her personality. My argument to her was this: if you use concepts like "honor" or "dignity" then you clearly are not westernized since these are antiquated village notions and forms of social control. These concepts are not aspects of a liberal individualistic society. My argument was: how can something you enjoy be degrading? In fact these are acts of inhibition that limit personal freedoms by casting the person into various social restrictions. Ultimately the biggest worry for this and other girls/guys is what others will think of them, a continuation of the honor-shame complex of the Med. A truly western person will act as he/she pleases and will not limit himself/herself to any honor-shame complexes. I further added that these ideas are in it of themselves examples of how she still retains the Islamic characteristics that she inherited from her society. That she is uncomfortably straddling two worlds, one that many Albanian girls also straddle: eastern conservatism and western liberalism. That they are caught between two opposed worlds. Many Alb girls I know are 20-23 and still virgins, waiting for the proper guy. Others have been dating the same guy since highschool or college. They go to dance clubs in revealing clothes, but hang around together in exclusive female groups, not allowing any guys to come close or dance with them randomly... in effect they are restricting their social freedom. They use the ideas: "honor"/"dignity" to exemplify their life. So what do you guys think? My personal view is that the only way to truly liberate one's self and to live a free individualistic lifestyle is to remove all social/gender boundaries. Concepts of honor and dignity or shame are not part of a free lifestyle. As an atheist and as having a PhD for girls (Pimpin Hoes Degree) I can tell that you dont have any game...so for your information, all of them DO bang with the first guy they see and like and then they pretend to be "kurva te ndershme" (honorable hoes) lol....I have never met a good Albanian or any other girl that didnt want to f@k me, i guess im hot...and these are the most conservative girls that im talkin about catholic maleesores which if their parents find out or if their brothers of cousins find out ima be in a blood feud (they shoot each other at parties and churches), or muslim kosovares or iliridase...so you know that they are some of the most conservative...and i have been with well over 50 girl 80% albo... And honor and dignity is not a non-western thing, if you met any of the elite of America, the big shots, the richest most powerful people in america they all have honor and dignity from normal rich people to the shtepine e bardh, you must be living in a whole white trash neighborhood if you never seen that...
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Post by leshte on Nov 3, 2009 1:00:27 GMT -5
I don't wanna quote Einstein here but I am not so sure that what you say above is really true, Donnie. Its interesting that the more I learn, the older I get, the more I fail to see anything as being absolute, the more I see that this world of ours revolves around relatives; science included.
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 3, 2009 2:27:08 GMT -5
leshte,I think for science,not everything is relative I think.
But yea,I too had that realization not too long ago when thinking about morality in this world,when trying to see whether a certain something is moral or not,I then realise that there's a lot of depends this depends that....
It's very frustrating especially for some na........ like me
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Post by vanilo on Nov 3, 2009 6:38:43 GMT -5
Why do you need to mention this? If you believe in personal freedom then what does it matter to you if girls, or guys, make the personal choice of remaining virgins, even if it should be till they're 60 years old? This is what I don't get: I totally respect, understand and, some of the way, agree with what you've written. However, I've noticed that a lot of people who say as you do - that social restrictions are basically stupid and pointless (because society's norms/restrictions shouldn't inhibit your freedom and individuality) - worry about norms, about what people think of them, constantly. If you really, REALLY believe in not being inhibited by society's norms/restrictions because your own freedom counts more then why would you allow yourself to live by or create a standard (for somebody else) as to when you're not supposed to be a virgin anymore? You, Toskali, shouldn't look at those Albanian girls' ages and make it sound like it's an issue that they are at that age and still virgins. Not with your belief that you've described in this thread. It doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that when you're dismissing social norms/restrictions you're not actually dismissing them, you're just saying that you think that people should rebel against them by doing the opposite of them - and that you need to rebel in order to be free. I disagree with that completely; the alternative to being against is to find your own way - which may or may not be the opposite of what you don't believe in/don't want to follow. So...while those 20-23 year old Albanian girls may be Atheist, totally against social norms/restrictions and so on, they perhaps choose to remain virgins anyway because they have the freedom to do so. Isn't the beauty of freedom that it's all about what YOU want for yourself? Perhaps those girls just don't feel good about spreading their legs to guys that they can't count on after they've had the sex - or maybe they don't feel good about having sex with men they have no emotional bond to. They use their freedom to remain virgins, that's another way to use your freedom (instead of using it to be promiscuous). Plus...most of you here are men...you know yourselves how you can talk about girls who easily give it up to you: you don't exactly keep that information to yourself - nor do you talk respectfully about that girl to your friends after you've "done her". Don't you think that girls know that? Don't you think that that might make some girls not want to just throw themselves into the arms of guys? People may not believe in honour and dignity but I think everyone believes in respecting themselves. Whether they're religious or not. I think even an Atheist girl who hates norms and restrictions appreciates some respect from men/her man - especially those/the one she's sharing her body with. Urgh...all this reminds me of a Kurdish friend of mine...the most hardcore Atheist I've eeever met in my entire life. No one is against traditions, social norms/restrictions, idealism and the concepts of honour, shame and dignity more than him. At least, that's the impression he gives out to everyone by I) expressing his opinions in, at times, distasteful and harsh manners (which he's free to do, of course - I can take it, personally ;D) which he does to shake people up and show them that he's passionate about his beliefs, and knows what he's talking about. And it's working: people are scared to challenge his views or/and ask him questions about it...because they think he's so confident in himself and his beliefs that he has an answer to everything...they're afraid that he might even be able to convince them of his ideas... II) acting very impulsively - even recklessly. He doesn't at all think about the benefits and consequences of his choices and actions...because he's a great believer in following your desires in the here and now...not letting anything, especially not social restrictions, hold you back from living your desires out. He's been in pretty bad situations because he doesn't think a minute ahead...but that's another topic . Anyway...this same guy who so easily gives a damn about what people think of him having wild sex orgies with women, having a new girl in his bedroom every day, getting drunk and high etc. is the same guy who'll say "well, I won't be accepted in society (the one he lives in) if I don't look like this and that, if I don't wear this and that (for instance, he wears pink blouses even though he cannot stand pink and personally thinks pink looks gay - but he still wears it to please other people who do like pink blouses), if I don't have this and that job, if I don't have X amount of money, if I don't live in Y kind of house, if I don't drive Z kind of car" and so on. It's funny to me so this passionate guy contradict himself...but I don't know...to some extend, I guess it's human to have a tiny hypocrite within oneself. I've lost count on how many times Muslims have said I'm a hypocrite, too. Maybe I am...I call myself Muslim but don't live up to all the things I'm supposed to in order to be the best Muslim that I can be (which in itself is an un-Muslim thing to do as Muslims should always actively do something to be the best that they can be). I guess that's hypocritical too...
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Post by L0gjICK on Nov 3, 2009 10:24:39 GMT -5
"Many Alb girls I know are 20-23 and still virgins, waiting for the proper guy." Girls say what Albanian guys wanna hear.
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