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Post by radovic on Jun 10, 2009 9:22:46 GMT -5
“80,000 people executed after World War II”
10 June 2009
The Partisans are believed to have killed some 80,000 people throughout Serbia between 1944-1946, according to figures from the Contemporary History Institute.
Following the decision to make the documents on the execution of Chetnik leader Draža Mihailoviæ available to the public and opening the dossier on those who were killed for being on the losing side in World War II, the Institute states that about 80,000 people were executed in Serbia in this period.
Their graves were usually kept secret. Institute Director Momèilo Pavloviæ told B92 that these people were killed just because they were not members of the anti-fascist movement.
“There are people who were not convicted of war crimes by any court, while, at the same time, the majority were those who no court could have found guilty, because they were not members of any resistance movement, or because they were simply passive during the war, and the majority of people in Serbia fell into this category,” Pavloviæ said.
“These were mostly the best known people of these qualifications—leaders of the old regime, reactions and such like—but those were people who were considered part of the elite,” he said.
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Post by radovic on Jun 10, 2009 9:30:18 GMT -5
Grobnice svuda po Srbiji
Grob Draže Mihailoviæa oèigledno se krio kako javnost ne bi saznala za još gore zloèine posleratnih komunistièkih vlasti širom zemlje
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Za svega nekoliko meseci, od oktobra 1944. do maja 1945. godine, posleratne vlasti u Srbiji su likvidirale najmanje 80.000 ljudi. Veæini je presuðeno bez suda i suðenja, bez dokaza i uverljivih svedoka, pa su se pred streljaèkim strojem našli i ratni zloèinci i nevina deca! I dok EU traži da se ovaj period naše istorije potpuno rasvetli, država kao da za to i ne haje!
Na to, uostalom, upuæuju i izjave svedoka koji ovih dana svedoèe pred Državnom komisijom za rasvetljavanje èinjenica o pogubljenju Draže Mihailoviæa. Osim tvrdnje da je komandant Jugoslovenske vojske u otadžbini likvidiran i sahranjen u Lisièjem potoku, ponovo je „vaskrsla" davna sumnja da su na istom mestu, pored njega, streljane i pokopane stotine drugih. Prema reèima istorièara Srðana Cvetkoviæa, saradnika Instituta za savremenu istoriju, na teritoriji bivše Jugoslavije, od septembra 1944. pa sve do polovine 1945. godine, stradalo je od 180 do 200 hiljada ljudi, od èega samo u Srbiji oko 80.000.
- Teško je navesti taèan broj pogubljenih i lokacija na kojima su zakopavani, ali vodimo se jasnom raèunicom - skoro da nema mesta u Srbiji u kojem nije bilo egzekucija. U selima su streljane grupe od pet do 40 ljudi. Samo je u Vrèinu, recimo, odjednom streljano 40 osoba. U palankama i varošicama ubijano je od nekoliko desetina do stotinu ljudi, a najteže je utvrditi obim egzekucija u veæim gradovima. Tamo se broj likvidiranih kreæe od 300 do 400, pa èak i do hiljadu ljudi i više! - govori Cvetkoviæ.
Ubijali redom
Cvetkoviæ tvrdi da je na podruèju uže Srbije ubijeno tridesetak hiljada ljudi, dok su u Vojvodini u posleratnom periodu najviše stradali Nemci (oko 40.000) i Maðari (oko 6.000). Cvetkoviæ podseæa i na to da je na Zelengori, u maju 1945. godine, pobijeno oko 9.000 èetnika, i da je najmanje još desetak hiljada Srba stradalo tokom povlaèenja u Sloveniji.
- Teško je sada stradale razvrstavati po nekom odreðenom kriterijumu, a to je, po svemu sudeæi, i bila namera poèinioca. Sa prljavom vodom je izbacivana i èista, pa su se s dokazanim zloèincima streljale i potpuno nevine osobe, uz obrazloženje da su „svi isti" - objašnjava on.
Zatvori u svakoj zgradi sa podrumom
U Beogradu su streljanja obavljana na više lokacija, a najmasovnija u Lisièjem potoku, istièe istorièar Srðan Cvetkoviæ. On kaže da je „skoro svaka veæa zgrada sa boljim podrumom" tada pretvarana u zatvor. Najveæi istražni zatvori su bili u Ðušinoj ulici, „Glavnjaèa" kod Prirodno-matematièkog fakulteta, zatim na Banjici i Adi Ciganliji.
- Prva streljanja u gradu obavljena su još 17. oktobra 1944, u Belimarkoviæevom voænjaku, na prilazu Beogradu, jer su partizani dolazili iz pravca Avale. Procenjuje se da je skoro 95 odsto stradalih ubijeno bez suda - prièa Cvetkoviæ.
Publicista Miloslav Samardžiæ, koji se decenijama bavi istraživanjem komunistièkih zloèina, smatra da su tokom prve posleratne godine nove vlasti u Srbiji streljale „više od 100.000 ljudi". Najveæi problem za istraživanje ovih zloèina je, prema njegovim reèima, nedostatak sredstava. „Pogledi" su svojevremeno osnovali tim od desetak istraživaèa, ali njihov „Elaborat o istraživanju zloèina komunista" nikada nije naišao na podršku i odobravanje državnih organa i nadležnih ustanova.
Tajnu krije VBA
I Srðan Cvetkoviæ, autor više istorijskih priloga i knjiga na ovu temu, istièe da nedostupnost pojedinih fondova znatno otežava utvrðivanje istine o dogaðajima s kraja 1944. i prve polovine 1945. godine. On kaže da ima dosta saradnika u sporednim fondovima, da se dosta radi na terenu, ali da je na najveæu opstrukciju naišao u Vojno-bezbednosnoj agenciji (VBA).
- Dugo traje prepiska izmeðu našeg instituta i VBA, ali do traženih informacija nismo uspeli da doðemo. Obièno se pravdaju da su svi dokumenti dostupni, ali da su „na sreðivanju". Èinjenica je, meðutim, da æe jedan od uslova za ulazak u Evropsku uniju biti i potpuno rasvetljavanje ovog perioda naše istorije. Slovenci su se, na primer, ovoj temi temeljno posvetili, a kod nas još nisu ni otvorena dosijea, rehabilitacija se radi veoma traljavo, restitucija nije ni zapoèeta... - objašnjava Cvetkoviæ.
On kaže da postoje najmanje tri razloga zbog koji su zloèini komunista i dalje tabu tema za državne organe.
- Prvi je ideološki, jer istraživanja koèe potomci onih koji su vršili takve zloèine, ali su prisutna i shvatanja da bi takva otkriæa kompromitovala Narodno-oslobodilaèku borbu i antifašizam u Srbiji. Drugi razlog je finansijski, jer se pretpostavlja da bi to puno koštalo, a treæi je krajnje jednostavan: potpuna nezainteresovanost nadležnih - tvrdi Srðan Cvetkoviæ.
Draža Mihailoviæ
Mošti na sto metara od Tita... Draža u Lisièijem potoku
Veliko otkriæe Komisije: PRONAÐENA ARHIVA O UBISTVU DRAŽE
BEOGRAD - U jednom arhivu van teritorije Beograda pronaðeni su dokumenti koji æe iz korena promeniti dosadašnja saznanja o dogaðajima s kraja 1944. i prve polovine 1945. godine i masovnim streljanjima koje su vršili predstavnici nove komunistièke vlasti, saznaje Press nedelje u izvorima bliskim Državnoj komisiji za rasvetljavanje èinjenica o pogubljenju Draže Mihailoviæa.
Prema tim navodima, u pronaðenoj arhivi nalaze se zapisnik i fotografije sa egzekucije generala Mihailoviæa, ali i brojni podaci o streljanjima, uèesnicima i naredbodavcima zloèina poèinjenih prvih dana od dolaska komunista na vlast.
- U pitanju je mala arhiva koja je decenijama bila zatvorena i niko joj nije imao pristup. Pretpostavlja se da su je napravili neki ozbiljni i odgovorni ljudi koji su želeli da se jednog dana ipak otkrije istina o svim zloèinima. Biæe to veliko iznenaðenje za sve, ali je važno da se ta dokumenta saèuvaju, jer ima onih koji bi želeli da ih se dokopaju pre nego što budu obelodanjeni. Mnogi su postali nervozni kad se osetilo da je neko na tragu toj arhivi. O svemu æe se više znati narednih dana, ali verujte da æe ovi podaci odjeknuti kao bomba - prièa naš izvor.
Slobodan Homen, državni sekretar Ministarstva pravde i èlan Komisije, potvrðuje za naš list da je arhiva pronaðena i da se u njoj nalaze „širi podaci", ne samo oni o smrti Draže Mihailoviæa. On je uveren da ne postoji opasnost da podaci budu „oèerupani" i istièe da bi oni veæ sutra trebalo da budu dostupni Komisiji.
- U tim dokumentima se, izmeðu ostalog, nalaze i fotografije sa streljanja Draže Mihailoviæa, kompletna dokumentacija i zapisnik o izvršenju smrtne kazne. Ovo su potpuno novi podaci, jer arhiva nije otvarana od 1946. godine. Fotografije su napravljene kako bi se državnom vrhu dokazalo da je nad Mihailoviæem izvršena smrtna kazna. Arhiva se nalazi van Beograda, ali još ne želimo da kažemo gde taèno- istièe Homen.
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Post by SKORIC on Jun 10, 2009 10:16:07 GMT -5
Yep well.. thats not even including how much people they killed before 1944. Any Cetnik controlled or other village taken over by the Partizans, you bet your ass everyone was either killed, forced into death marches or (if they were fit to fight) forced to fight with them. Not to mention how much Serbian intelectuals they killed during 1941, especially before they decided they would finally rise up against the Nazi's after the Soviets were invaded. Infact to mark their uprising the first people they killed were not Germans but 2 Serbian officials.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 10, 2009 10:57:20 GMT -5
Lest we forget the anti-Stalinist purges as well. They were mainly targeting Serb Commies.
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Post by SKORIC on Jun 10, 2009 11:25:05 GMT -5
^ And alot of them werent even really commies, people just ratted out on each other so they wouldnt get accused themselves. Ive posted the video about that here before.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 10, 2009 11:43:51 GMT -5
All in all, Tito and his thugs were outright detrimental to Serbdom. Is his corpse still interned in Belgrade?
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 10, 2009 18:21:06 GMT -5
All in all, Tito and his thugs were outright detrimental to Serbdom. Is his corpse still interned in Belgrade? Yep  Visited it and paid him respect last time I was in Belgrade, it was literally full of people, and it was a normal working day. |
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Post by radovic on Jun 10, 2009 18:39:16 GMT -5
^ Lol. What an idiot?
He's trying to say Serbs pay their respects to this man in alrge umbers every day. Too bad the facts don't back up his claim.
Onlu 20,000 people visit the site. More then a quarter of these visit the site on Dan Mladosti.
Of the other 15,000 most [2/3] come during the 45 days it is open during the summer <-- majority of which are foreign tourists {when I was their during the summer it was an American tour group, the old frail Slovenian and a group of Slovaks, only about 30% of people were form ex-YU}.
That means on the average day [i.e. 210 or so days it is open outside the summer season when foreigners visit him and when it isn't dan mladosti], as he claims, only something aorund 25 people come to Tito's grave.
But what do you expect from the idiot who claimed Yugoslavia had a low unemplyoment rate under Tito.
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Post by Username on Jun 10, 2009 18:48:39 GMT -5
Why is it whenever I open up this site, whether its in this forum, or the Bosnian, Croatian, or Albanian forums, there's always a thread which attempts to make Serbs out to be some kind of victims?
Enough already? Who are you trying to fool? Seriously.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Jun 10, 2009 19:47:15 GMT -5
Why is it whenever I open up this site, whether its in this forum, or the Bosnian, Croatian, or Albanian forums, there's always a thread which attempts to make Serbs out to be some kind of victims? Enough already? Who are you trying to fool? Seriously. Ne kenjaj! |
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 10, 2009 19:49:29 GMT -5
I dont know how u people can belive that 80 000 people where killed by the Partisans after the war? i mean look at the 90's when Nationalism where at its greatest, a fart from Slobo could make the whole YU colapse, let alone killing 80 000 people and then in some way keep it a secret. Come on.
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Post by vinjak on Jun 10, 2009 19:58:38 GMT -5
Hmmm I dont know about the numbers but there was a "Clean up" ordered by the regime after the war.....doesnt suprise me either because in order for Tito's Jug to work many had to disappear a wiping of the slate so to speak.
I do know however that Partisans did go from village to village in mop up operations officialy and unofficialy directly after the war and I am guessing it would not be hard to believe that on the spot executions were carried out.
Only the important figures were ever brought to trial, so the probability of people just being shot on site due to accusation's by neighbors etc is very high.
My Grandad after electing not to join the foreign legion and voluntry returning home from Rome was interigated and imprisoned for 6 months hard labour for being a officer in the Cetniks, only because he was on the wrong side, his unit did help some partisan units during the war and that was why they did not execute him.
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Post by radovic on Jun 10, 2009 20:10:49 GMT -5
I dont know how u people can belive that 80 000 people where killed by the Partisans after the war? i mean look at the 90's when Nationalism where at its greatest, a fart from Slobo could make the whole YU colapse, let alone killing 80 000 people and then in some way keep it a secret. Come on. Ever heard of Katyn, the famines under Mao, some of the things Che did in Cuba (which lead to Castro kicking him out) or some of the things Koreans have done. You'd be surprised at what a closed society with a totalitarian regime could hide. Especially 60 years ago with no satellites, tv, internet and when information could easily be controlled. 95% of the ex-USSR population didn't even know about the millions stalin killed until the late 80s. These 80,000 deaths are part of some 250,000 deaths that occured in the post-war period. Similar numbers of dead in Bosnia and Croatia after war. Some 15,000 in Kosovo. Then there are the thousands linked to the death marches. No ex-YU state has done excavations of this. Slovenian alone has started doing this and parliament their has identified 815 possible mass grave sites. Ex-YU states face opposition from ex-Partizans and their descendants to keep the truth away from the light. Same situation with Russia and ex-communists stopping the work of investigations into Stalinist crimes. |
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Post by vinjak on Jun 10, 2009 20:15:58 GMT -5
Why is it whenever I open up this site, whether its in this forum, or the Bosnian, Croatian, or Albanian forums, there's always a thread which attempts to make Serbs out to be some kind of victims? Enough already? Who are you trying to fool? Seriously. Oh cmon what a small minded thing to say  |
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 10, 2009 20:34:32 GMT -5
Why is it whenever I open up this site, whether its in this forum, or the Bosnian, Croatian, or Albanian forums, there's always a thread which attempts to make Serbs out to be some kind of victims? Enough already? Who are you trying to fool? Seriously. Obviously we can't fool a fool. |
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Post by zgembo on Jun 10, 2009 21:53:38 GMT -5
Doesn't surprise me at all.
There's also Sremski Front, where they conscripted teenagers and young men from rich & educated families, giving them nothing more than a rusty rifle to go up against experienced, well-equipped German soldiers. Most would die.
It was all calculated I think. In order for communists to rule effectively, they had to eliminate all threats (educated, rich, upper-class people were threats; Serbs, who ruled the Yugoslav Kingdom, were a threat). The change in power was drastic after WW2 (the communists who gained it were mostly uneducated peasants).
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Jun 11, 2009 2:30:25 GMT -5
I was reading an article about this very thing (Croatia in this instance though), where a Russian Writer wrote a book on how most of the Croat high classes and upper-middle classes were erased from Croatia/Croat Dominated areas of Yugoslavia. He stated that the same was going on with the Serbs and Slovenes, and it would take a hundred years for our people to "re-evolve". I think it was posted in the Croatia SF a while ago, can't really remember. I'll try and dig it up.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 11, 2009 2:48:53 GMT -5
Such purges occurred all over the Socialist world. Most of the educated elites werent exactly educated under a socialist system and thus were distrusted. In Albania the purges went to an utmost extreme, eliminating all those who had been educated in other western lycee and universities, replacing them with blind half-literates and psychophants.
They destroyed an entire possible intellectual renaissance that the Balkans could have truly experienced....
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 11, 2009 5:42:37 GMT -5
Very interesting things here....
However, isnt the trend to create mechanisms via which the slav ppl will hate their history (post WWII included)
and thus hate themselves?
In any serb or beograd or ex-yugo sentimental rubbish article i have read, the term or notion
of "bad bad bad bad communism" is always present.
Throughout europe it happened the same.
In Greece we were kicking each other's butt till 1950.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 11, 2009 5:51:17 GMT -5
There's no doubt that there were "cleaning" of un patriotised people that were a threat to SFRJ, even my hardcore commie grandfather doesnt deny that. But 80.000 / 250.000 people i really think is somewhat overated.
U can think what u want about communism, if u ask me i wouldnt vote for a commie party because i think its history. But to really say we had such bad bad no no communism state is just silly.
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