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Post by L0gjICK on Nov 28, 2009 19:52:45 GMT -5
So I was talking to one of my Bosnian friends who is a bit dark and I was joking around with him that he's probably of Turkish/Gypsy descent. Next thing I know, he starts rambling how his ancestors were Turks, which I found a bit weird.
Is this Turkish ancestry prevalent amongst Bosnians? Or is this just an attempt for Bosnians to distinguish themselves from Serbs?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 28, 2009 19:58:38 GMT -5
The myth of Ottoman Turkish ancestry is a big one historically among a number of Balkan Muslims. Some Bosnians, in an effort to distance themselves from any Christian origin, want to promote the idea of having mixed with Turks.
Among Albanian Beys and Pashas it was common place to retrace ons origins to some kind of 14-15th century Ottoman conqueror so that they could hide the fact that their ancestors were once Christians, something that to Muslims came as a sort of stigma.
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 29, 2009 0:36:04 GMT -5
if they are descended from Turks,I wonder who specifically? Ottoman soldiers? Civil Servants? Ottoman Turkish settlers?
I dont think Turkish ancestry is common at all among Bosniaks because there were Turkish settlements there.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Nov 29, 2009 12:28:03 GMT -5
Todhrimencuri +1.
Retracing ancestry back to the Ottomans is nothing short of revising history to accommodate the newly created ethnicity of "Bosniaks."
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Nov 29, 2009 12:45:32 GMT -5
arnavud coglan Ali Pasha ... claimed to come from Turkey too... according to his favourite Alipashiade...
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Post by Username on Nov 29, 2009 13:36:50 GMT -5
I don't think there was much intermarriage between the Ottomans and Bosnians.. so I would say it's false.
It's more likely that he has some gypsy blood in him or he's just very Mediterranean looking like some Italians and Greeks.
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Post by tito on Nov 29, 2009 15:05:02 GMT -5
Albanian muslims = Albanian Ottomans Bosnian muslims = Bosnian Ottomans Turkish muslims = Turkish Ottomans The only people your Ottoman rulers ethnically mixed with was the christian kmet women that we owned for 500 years and had a legal right to sleep with before they got married.
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Post by Username on Nov 29, 2009 16:23:55 GMT -5
^you know your ancestors were Christian right? lol of course you do.
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Post by tito on Nov 29, 2009 17:20:56 GMT -5
^you know your ancestors were Christian right? lol of course you do. I know that my Bosniak ancestors rejected the Catholic&Orthodox misinterpretations of prophet Jesus, I know that Bosniaks spilled blood against the crusaders from both the Orthodox east and Catholic west, I know that Catholic fanatics confiscated the lands of my Bosniak ancestors in 1448 and proclaimed us heretics because we refused to accept the Bible as the truth. By then the Glorious Ottomans had already reach the Drina valley and provided protection to all the righteous Bosniaks and a few years later with the help of Sultan Mehmed II and his army my Bosniak ancestors liberated their lands and mother Bosnia!
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Nov 29, 2009 20:29:43 GMT -5
what a love story... Whats the name of the movie?
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 29, 2009 20:52:52 GMT -5
Me too thinks the guy got gypsy blood.They are the oldest brown skinned people of Europe and they are found in Bosnia
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Post by vinjak on Nov 29, 2009 21:12:59 GMT -5
misinterpretations of prophet Jesus,
Arnt you supposed to say "Peace be upon him" or something like that when you mention prophets ?
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 29, 2009 22:18:04 GMT -5
Todhrimencuri +1. Retracing ancestry back to the Ottomans is nothing short of revising history to accommodate the newly created ethnicity of "Bosniaks." Same from me. It's rare if not totally unheard of for slav Muslims to admit to such realities. Take away the labels of Serb & Croat even and the Bosniaks/Torbesh/Gorani/Pomaks were essentially the same in mentality/ethnicity as either Serbs, Croats & Bulgarians. They were us & they would be us if they weren't Muslim. Of course this has to be a massive strike to their ethnicity so they will do anything to deny it hence why it's popular amongst slav Muslims to suddenly claim Illyrian & Thracian heritage (totall bs claim other than the odd known Albanian to slavic conversions) by skipping over their only known heritage which is slavic. Bosniaks actually come up with some really trippy stuff to rationalise their conversion to Islam. Tito here being a perfect example. Recently I heard one of them claim that the Bogumils (whom I doubt actually represented much of the populace in the first place) prayed 5 times a day & hence this made that form of Christianity similar to Islam. It's ridiculous. No way in the word their conversion can be viewed as voluntary. "Bosnians" participated in the battle of Kosovo under Vlatko and the first king Tvrtko Kotromanic proclaimed that he defended Christian Europe against Islam. The pious Christian Bosnian queen Katarina Kosaca had her children taken to Turkey and converted to Islam. Their conversion is down to brutality like that, the devsirme, janisarries, Ottoman law, hunger etc. ...And btw there have been times that they have both been referred to externally and by themselves as Turks. ...The not uncommon appearance of very dark skinned south slavs has commonly been put down to Turks but now it's considered more of a native Balkan element. I think it could be anything from Turks, to natives, to Sarmatian/slavic to Roman to any group... I don't believe any of these groups were racially homogenous.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Nov 29, 2009 22:31:28 GMT -5
"Bosniaks actually come up with some really trippy stuff to rationalise their conversion to Islam"
too right that tito's the most trppiest I've met yet lolz
ej tito moje what about the converts in the 17th century, still bogumils EH??? hahahaha you know what KISS MY VERY NICE CROAT ASS BECAUSE YOU WERE CHRISTIAN AND THEN GO PRAY TO RID YOUR ANCESTORS OF SINS. :-)
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Post by radovic on Nov 30, 2009 0:43:11 GMT -5
^you know your ancestors were Christian right? lol of course you do. I know that my Bosniak ancestors rejected the Catholic&Orthodox misinterpretations of prophet Jesus, I know that Bosniaks spilled blood against the crusaders from both the Orthodox east and Catholic west, I know that Catholic fanatics confiscated the lands of my Bosniak ancestors in 1448 and proclaimed us heretics because we refused to accept the Bible as the truth. By then the Glorious Ottomans had already reach the Drina valley and provided protection to all the righteous Bosniaks and a few years later with the help of Sultan Mehmed II and his army my Bosniak ancestors liberated their lands and mother Bosnia! Lol. The medieval Bosnians never rejected the bible. Theire beliefs were similar to the Cathars of France, they accepted the bible used by the christian denomination you so despise (the difference being they recognized some gospels not recognized by the Orthodox or Catholics and some cutoms the two objected two). AnywAYS. The views of the medieval "Bonsian Church" are similar to France's Cathars. Hence, no rejection of the Bible. Of course your ancestors rejected Christianity you Gypsy. They came form India. They worshipped ganesh.
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Post by radovic on Nov 30, 2009 0:54:01 GMT -5
Todhrimencuri +1. Retracing ancestry back to the Ottomans is nothing short of revising history to accommodate the newly created ethnicity of "Bosniaks." Same from me. It's rare if not totally unheard of for slav Muslims to admit to such realities. Take away the labels of Serb & Croat even and the Bosniaks/Torbesh/Gorani/Pomaks were essentially the same in mentality/ethnicity as either Serbs, Croats & Bulgarians. They were us. Of course this has to be a massive strike to their ethnicity so they will do anything to deny it hence why it's popular amongst slav Muslims to suddenly claim Illyrian & Thracian heritage (totall bs claim other than the odd known Albanian to slavic conversions) by skipping over their only known heritage which is slavic. Bosniaks actually come up with some really trippy stuff to rationalise their conversion to Islam. Tito here being a perfect example. Recently I heard one of them claim that the Bogumils (whom I doubt actually represented much of the populace in the first place) prayed 5 times a day & hence this made that form of Christianity similar to Islam. It's ridiculous. No way in the word their conversion can be viewed as voluntary. "Bosnians" participated in the battle of Kosovo under Vlatko and the first king Tvrtko Kotromanic proclaimed that he defended Christian Europe against Islam. The pious Christian Bosnian queen Katarina Kosaca had her children taken to Turkey and converted to Islam. Their conversion is down to brutality like that, the devsirme, janisarries, Ottoman law, hunger etc. ...And btw there have been times that they have both been referred to externally and by themselves as Turks. ...The not uncommon appearance of very dark skinned south slavs has commonly been put down to Turks but now it's considered more of a native Balkan element. I think it could be anything from Turks, to natives, to Sarmatian/slavic to Roman to any group... I don't believe any of these groups were racially homogenous. "bogomilism" was more present in Bulgaria then in the Bosnia. Anyways. Bonsians had their own church customs, viewed as heretical by Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Anyways. Unlike some of them might claim. They weren't unique and they weren't rejections of Christianity. Whatever the hell they believed, the Bosnian medieval populations seem to have more in common with Cathars (Christian group in France recognized additional gospels and had different customs from catholicism). Similar groups were present throughout Europe (particularly southern France, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Armenia) it's just nowhere else do people connect it to their current identity or try to connect it to their religion.
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Post by Username on Nov 30, 2009 1:23:19 GMT -5
misinterpretations of prophet Jesus,Arnt you supposed to say "Peace be upon him" or something like that when you mention prophets ? And doesn't his religion say off with his head if he disobeys that rule?!?!?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 30, 2009 2:14:42 GMT -5
Bogomilism issue dealt more with church control than anything else. Seeing some pre-Islamic concepts in a cult that differentiated from others only in small (to us) issues of sacraments is a joke... simply a joke.
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Dec 1, 2009 0:41:51 GMT -5
i dont doubt that there might be some anatolian turk blood among bosniaks, but majority of them do not have any at all, and those that do, its only a miniscule fraction of their ancestry. its more like the other way around, there's alot of turks in turkey who have bosniak or croat blood in them. along with serb, albanian, bulgarian and greek blood aswell.
all in all, bosniaks are very much simlar to bosnian croats by blood/ancestry.
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Post by Username on Dec 1, 2009 0:46:16 GMT -5
i dont doubt that there might be some anatolian turk blood among bosniaks, but majority of them do not have any at all, and those that do, its only a miniscule fraction of their ancestry. Indeed, even if they do.. there is no way that they will have any impact on the way modern Bosniaks look today... i.e. the chance of one forefather from 500 years ago passing on any gene that affects your physical appearance is virtually nil.
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