donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Dec 28, 2009 14:27:18 GMT -5
Political control doesn't equate demographic reality. Ottoman registers of the 16th century reveal a rather different demographic reality than that of today.
There's a reason why Carleton Coon believed Montenegrins were of Albanian origins and not vice versa. You didnt think he pondered on both versions and then made his conclusions?
You cannot compare Montenegro to Albania; better to compare geographically reminiscent territories. Just like Serbian flatlands were conquored by the Ottomans, so were Albanian flatlands. The highlands (Malsia or Himara) were just as autonomous as Montenegro ... difference was that in your case, this freedom was institutionalized under a Vladika. You didnt achieve official independence and recognition until 1878.
You didnt manage to take it. It was treacherously handed over to you by the traitor Esat pasha, who got what he deserved some yrs later by patriot Avni Rrustemi. Prior to this, Shkoder held out for 183 days ... the Montenegrin "army" or hordes of tribesmen proved to be ineffective and required the assistance of the Serbian army, despite that it itself (the Montenegrin army) numbered 15,000 fighters. It took the assasination of the commander Hasan Riza and his succession by the traitor Esat Pasha for you to "take" the city. Esat pasha formally handed the city over for personal interests and the Montenegrins took the city without a shot, burning the basaar and killing civilians after Esat's troops drew back in sign of retaliation for the stiff resistance they had felt for so long.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Dec 28, 2009 14:36:33 GMT -5
What are the chances of Admin killing hisself if there's conclusive proof that he's of Albanian stock? I suggested in the Greek forum that all those of some Albanian origin cut off their Albanian part and the end result ranged from several severed heads (Eva, Karatadolofonos, MonsterofSouli) to one circumcision (Kanaris) Perhaps we should try the same in the MonteNegro forum as well.
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Post by malsor4life on Dec 28, 2009 14:49:43 GMT -5
Montenegro didnt win jack in shkoder 1912-13, it was given to them temporarily by that traitor as Donnie said. Montenegro suffered thousands of casualties in the process, ive seen figures up around 10,000 dead. Hardly a sweeping victory, and t'was all for not--cuz it came back to her rightful owners.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Dec 28, 2009 15:00:26 GMT -5
Montenegrins do not come out very strong. On the contrary, tt would be a joke to think a person like me (erudite, well cultured, intricate) to have something in common with you (blue-collar, ignorant, lonely, a simple minded laborer dying to be something he is not). Montenegrins are tough motherf**kers you don't mess with. Got that shiptar? Easy for you to hide behind the computer. Let's see you say something like that to any of our faces. By the way what makes you well cultured & intricate? And what's wrong blue collar laborers? Just because someone is a blue collar laborer doesn't mean they're uneducated & stupid. A lot of those people make more money than you. You're an idiot for saying stupid things like that. What makes you so "high class"? You're a joke. What's with that turk looking dude on your avatar? That's definitely not European. Looks total arab or turk. .... threats over the internet are not worth much. If you live in the tri-state NYC area I would be more than welcome to accomondate you. I dont generally like fights, but truth be told very few people are willing to fight me when I come face-to-face with them... it would be interesting to see ur Slavko bich face. Afterall, since your Montey, there is perhaps a greater chance for you to be my size...
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Post by malsor4life on Dec 28, 2009 15:12:45 GMT -5
Melty, spring is coming !
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Post by dusko1 on Dec 28, 2009 18:19:26 GMT -5
LOL WOW!!! I can't believe some of the delusional shiptars on this forum. You guys are entertaing. Keep 'em coming.
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Post by malsor4life on Dec 28, 2009 18:33:11 GMT -5
LOL WOW!!! I can't believe some of the delusional shiptars on this forum. You guys are entertaing. Keep 'em coming. Aadmin is the delusional one here, thinking all Geg albs are Montenegrin and all Tosk albs are Greek. We have no identity and our language just popped out of nowhere. Talk about conspiracy theories... ;D
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Dec 28, 2009 20:03:04 GMT -5
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Dec 28, 2009 20:06:24 GMT -5
And Albos are not in position to talk about how Montenegrins fought and resisted to Turks... and a greek has position to put nose here? when those "Albos" liberatet Modern Greece while your ancestors lived in Asia Minor as turk proud.
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Post by MurlaniHotit on Dec 28, 2009 20:30:37 GMT -5
Aadmin, with regard to your response that Sanja Savkoviq, Milica Paviqeviq might be Albanian because you met some people in Ulqin with the last names Perovic (Peraj) or (Vukaj). This is pretty easy to respond to. A lot of people from the Albanian region of Kraja, which is in the municipality of Tivari or better known to Montenegrins as Bar, have last names like that, and since the region was ceded to Montenegro in 1878, Slavic suffixes were added to the endings. Please go to the website below to see the Albanian version of the surnames of these people and the Slavicized versions: www.freewebs.com/kraja06/clansofkraja.htmSo if you look through the list of last names and where they live, you can see that Peraj are found in Skje, Ronj, and that the Vukaj are found in Keshtenj. Now I know just about every last name in Malesia and what region in particular they belong to, and I have never heard of the last names Savkovic or Pavicevic. I have heard of Pavicevic in Kuci though. Let's use one Aadmin's favorite sources to prove this one, Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di#Bratstva_.28clans.29So if there are Albanians named Pavicevic or Savkovic, show me where because I've never met, seen, or known any of them.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 28, 2009 21:53:26 GMT -5
^ Are you saying that Perovic & are slavicised names from Peraj & Vukaj because that sounds absurd. They are two of the most common slavic names (also as first names: Vuk, Pero(abr for Petar)) with slavic meaning (Vuk - wolf) and they are also found a lot in Croatia and all through Bosnia and Serbia. That link you posted basically claims every single known slavic name as Albanian. And what is your evidence that they are not Albanised names? I think we'll have to be rewriting a lot of history here. According to Albanians the majority of the Balkanites decided to collectively slavicise themselves by a handfull of barbaric slavs.
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Post by srbobran on Dec 28, 2009 21:56:47 GMT -5
Donnie,
I don't think your assessment of Montenegrin fighting valor is entirely fair. Yeah, they did have some poor moments, but all in all, I think its fair to say that if there is one thing they are good at, its fighting. They raped the Ottomans ( a large part of which were Albanians) numerous times. An event that comes to mind is the attack by Kara Mahumd Bushati whose forces were utterly ravaged and he himself was beheaded by a Montenegrin warrior.
That being said, I think you're spot on with your comment in regards to their eagerness to betray Serbdom. The Montenegrins of today have no right to claim the glory that their ancestors fought and bled for.
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Post by dusko1 on Dec 28, 2009 22:19:36 GMT -5
Donnie, I don't think your assessment of Montenegrin fighting valor is entirely fair. Yeah, they did have some poor moments, but all in all, I think its fair to say that if there is one thing they are good at, its fighting. They raped the Ottomans ( a large part of which were Albanians) numerous times. An event that comes to mind is the attack by Kara Mahumd Bushati whose forces were utterly ravaged and he himself was beheaded by a Montenegrin warrior. That being said, I think you're spot on with your comment in regards to their eagerness to betray Serbdom. The Montenegrins of today have no right to claim the glory that their ancestors fought and bled for. Good post Srbobran but one thing though not every Montenegrin is eager to betray Serbdom. That whole Kosovo recognition was a stupid move but yes they were pressured into doing so for material gain which makes me sad. Do you think the people of Montenegro were all for that? Maybe some idiots (small percentage of them) but I don't think the majority of the country were for it.
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Post by MurlaniHotit on Dec 28, 2009 22:46:43 GMT -5
I think you are misunderstanding my post. I'm not claiming that all of the people named Perovic or are Albanian. That's a ridiculous claim that I would never make. I was simply trying to show Aadmin that there was an explanation for the and Perovic he met in Ulqin being Albanian. I know, and I think everyone here knows, that most of the people named and Perovic are Slavic, be they Serbs, Croats, Bosnians or Montenegrins. I was simply trying to show that the the Perovic and that were Albanian that he met, come from a particular area, and as Albanians, we know where these people come from. We also know that this area has been Albanian for a very long time, because some of the people from this area fled from Kraja to Zadar in Croatia in the 1720's, and those immigrants set up Albanian speaking settlements in Zadar. Some of those settlements continue to speak Albanian today, or Arbanasi as they call it: www.perovicgenealogy.org/contents%20page.htmlNow the whole reason for me posting the link above was because Aadmin said that there was the possibility that Savkovic and Pavicevic could possibly be "Albanophone". I simply wanted to show him that I have never heard of Albanian people surnamed Savkovic and Pavicevic, but that I have heard of Albanians surnamed Perovic and , and I also wanted to show him where those people originate from. Now I my question to him is where do the "Albano-phone" Savkovic and Pavicevic come from because I've never seen or met any of them. I guess the reason for the post was to show him that and Perovic Albanians exist and are known while Savkovic and Pavicevic don't.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 28, 2009 22:48:56 GMT -5
^ OK got it.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Dec 28, 2009 23:04:23 GMT -5
Donnie, I don't think your assessment of Montenegrin fighting valor is entirely fair. Yeah, they did have some poor moments, but all in all, I think its fair to say that if there is one thing they are good at, its fighting. They raped the Ottomans ( a large part of which were Albanians) numerous times. An event that comes to mind is the attack by Kara Mahumd Bushati whose forces were utterly ravaged and he himself was beheaded by a Montenegrin warrior. That being said, I think you're spot on with your comment in regards to their eagerness to betray Serbdom. The Montenegrins of today have no right to claim the glory that their ancestors fought and bled for. I'm not claiming they lacked valor, but occasionally things are exaggerated. It's one thing to defend a roughly terrained, sparsely vegetated and dry desert-like land of mountains that cannot feed an army, and another to step out of the role as cattle lifters and become conquorors. They had luck in this regard mostly because other powers (namely Russia, Serbia & Bulgaria) were also at war with the Ottomans, and because the Ottoman empire in itself was collapsing from within. Despite this, the League of Prizren (comprised by volunteers only) defeated the Montenegrin army twice at Plav and Guci, despite being outnumbered (3,000 vs 4,000 in the first battle and 7,000 vs 9,000 in the second). The third battle at Rzhanica bridge or Helm was a humiliating defeat as well, where the Malsors put the men of Marko Miljanov to run after just a couple of shots and wild roars. And the episode at Ulqin I already mentioned. As for Karamahmud; yes, he was defeated at Krusa and beheaded. The defeat was a combination of excellent tactics by the Montenegrins who used pincer tactics. Also the delay of the Mirdita highlanders is seen as a contributing factor. However, many people only remember this expedition ... they forget his first expedition against Montenegro where he managed to cross the whole country, defeating the Montenegrins, capturing Cetinje and subduing both the coastal tribes and hinterland tribes, receiving tributes from them for a time.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 29, 2009 7:46:09 GMT -5
And Albos are not in position to talk about how Montenegrins fought and resisted to Turks... and a greek has position to put nose here? when those "Albos" liberatet Modern Greece while your ancestors lived in Asia Minor as turk proud. yea...yea...you liberated us...but because you were such good guys you became independent one century after... ;D...big hearts... ;D... You're lucky that these guys kicked the beast out of here.... eiterway you would still be like Kurds...proud arnavoud icoglans... fighting for the turk bayrak....
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Post by ljubotan on Dec 29, 2009 14:08:53 GMT -5
I think for the size of Montenegro and their 400k + Montenegrin/Serb Orthodox populace, no other neighboring nation/region has produced more Kings, Presidents, Generals, Saints, Poets, etc.. then them.
You cannot take that away from them.
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Post by srbobran on Dec 29, 2009 15:09:16 GMT -5
^Thats true if you include the Serbs of Montenegrin descent (in Sumadija, Central Serbia, Bosnia, and Krajina) which easily account for over 40-50% of the total Serbian populace.
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Post by ljubotan on Dec 29, 2009 15:39:33 GMT -5
Yes, 40-50% of Serbians have Montenegrin roots in them, but they're not 100% Montenegrin today. I have Montenegrin blood from a 150yrs ago, but I'm not a Montenegrin Serb.
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