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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 2, 2008 4:01:11 GMT -5
PETITION 1.
Georgi Babadžanović and Vasil Teofilić from Ohrid in a letter to Jovan Ristić, President of the Minister's Council:
Mister Minister, it is very-well known to you, how the Bulgarians trough their Exarcho fooled us and promised us mountains of gold, and we hold that you know by whose initiative the Bulgarian propaganda took root in our peaceful and beautiful areas, but what are we going to do under such strong arm, we couldn't have resisted, but when the Bulgarians may do like this, and against us and against their liberators, than also we cannot, neither want to serve to the interests of Bulgaria, and that which we have done, we did it because of ignorance.
Mister Minister, we have nothing in common with Bulgarians, and everything among us, says that we are of Serbian breed and origin, and damned may be hundred times, the one who implies, to mix ourselves with Bulgarians.
Mister Minister, we haven't lost hope yet, it only depends on you, that as soon as possible yo come to the help of the schools and teachers, so that the Bulgariansm in our areas may be broken, and than the Serbian cause is achieved. We would with all our heart work on this, we would brought our women and children here, so that Serbian dance may flourish within Macedonia..........
That we are exhausted and from decent families, as that we speak the truth, shall be confirmed by ouur compatriot Mr. Kosta A. Šumenković trad(er), loc(al), and we are also known to Milojko Veselinović, a civil servant loc(al) and the editor of the "Serbdom".
22. July 1887. year Belgrade Most humble ones,
Georgi Babadžanović Vasil Teofilović
(Original. AIIS, collection of Jovan Ristić-Zbirka Jovana Ristica 12/541, XII/10)
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 2, 2008 4:05:27 GMT -5
PETITION 2
The men of the village of Lazaropole, North-Western FYROM, to the Government in Belgrade, 1887.
"Since when the Exarchate has been established all Orthodox Serbs of these areas suffer various discomforts because both the Patriarchate and the Exarchate are trying to keep the local people within its authority grabbing of theirs brings great harm to our people. That is because many of our best men are falling into prisons. Because of that many are renouncing the Patriarchate and do recognize the Exarchate which has won on its side only because of: to the our people it sends teachers for free and all the schooling necessities.
The smart people see that is all that foreign and that the Exarchate has an intention to bulgarize us a;;, but what we are going to do when the people is thirsty to have schools and teachers the Exarchate extended its arms into the county of Debar, and pays to the teachers in Varoš, in our village, in Galičnik and also into some other villages.
The undersigned chieftain of the village of Lazaropole and together with its teacher, know that our language isn't the Bulgarian language, that our customs are not Bulgarian, but Serbian and according to that we wish that our children do learn in Serbian language.
For that from the administration of the Prizren Theological Seminary we asked for and obtained quite a number of Serbian books for our school, but in order that our wish would be fulfilled in its entirety it is very necessary tha our teacher gets a salary, and later also all others, which are now payed by the Exarchate, know that Sima A. Igumanov left his property for the enlightenment of the local parts of our people, we are hopeful that you shall do good to us and provide our teacher a salary and his funds.
We think that we have a right on that, just like the other communities, to shake-off the foreign language, at we were obliged to learn until now.
To the our teacher the annual salary was 65 Turkish liras. We are asking you as soon as possible to report to us through the head of the Prizren Theological Seminary will you receive this our will and request, with such a hope , staying with greatest respect
1887, March 8 In the village of Lazaropole (Seal:Sv Ve(lk)mch Georgi vo Lazaropole)
To you humble: Ikonom pop Kosto Pa(pa) Serafim Isak Iosifov Iosif Radević Teacher Vasil A Ikonomović
(Original AC, MID, PP f. II br 28/1887)
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 2, 2008 4:10:19 GMT -5
PETITION 3
Request of the Serbs from the village of Bašino, near Veles (central FYROM) to the Dečani Ieromonach Ruvim, 1887.
"To the honorable gentlemen Ruvim the Ieromonach of the Monastery of Visoki Dečani
The inhabitants of the Bašino village community until ten years ago have instructed their youth in the school of theirs in pure Serbian language, and were distinguished by thath, that they never approached Bulgarian preachers.
But for ten years in the Serbian school of the village of Bašino, the Bulgarian language is taught, not by the will of the inhabitants, but by force from several persons
And that science which is being taught in our school in Bulgarian language is devastating our society, and we cannot get rid of it because, we do not have - as always before ten years- a Serbian teacher.
We decided, to ask Mr. Ruvim, to send us a Slavic teacher, which will teach our youth on the natural Serbian and not unnatural Bulgarian alphabet, which for our speech is worthless, since our words, sveća, đubre etc. cannot be written in the Bulgarian alphabet. In hope that our request will be received, we remain.
28th December 1887, Bašino village
Seen by: Rufim Serafimovic Monastery V. Dečani (Turksih seal from Dečani)
Humble dwellers of the village community of Bašino:
Ando Dzimat Manče Pulšor Petar M Tašov Andrea Višnić Kole Panov Diman Gigo DZimrev Nikola Micević Jovan Anević Joavan Dimanin Lazo Mincić Zafir Ranđelović Risto Paple Andria Eplun Tošo Dimković Dushmorović Sazdo Dimov Koce Dolev
(Diplomatic Archive-Diplomatski arhiv III, department-odelenje F. I 13/1887)”
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Post by srbobran on Jan 2, 2008 12:17:18 GMT -5
EXCELLENT finds! Well done, mate. I'm sure Sar would love to see this but he seems to be inactive.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 2, 2008 19:05:42 GMT -5
"EXCELLENT finds! Well done, mate. I'm sure Sar would love to see this but he seems to be inactive."
I actually l did it for both you guys, since both of u are from the vardar. I don't know whats happening to Mr Sar, l hope all is well for him.
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 6, 2008 15:20:29 GMT -5
Good info Novi, but I personally believe that for the most part the Vardar area never had any ethnic consciousness up until 100yrs ago or so. Some from Tetovo including myself have been told of Serb forefathers, however NEVER prior to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia did anyone in the Polog valley ever use Serbian words. I say that because after being more around Serbian people its obvious that there is quite a big difference in speech and its not a dialectal difference.
I think the few Serbs that came in our area from Kosovo we very few, hence otherwise they would have impacted the local language. On the other hand, majority of the few that came were from the border villages of Kosovo and Sar so their language was closer to ours (Torlak/Shopski).
I've seen on some Gorani forum that their language is spoken exactly like ours in Tetovo and their language was pretty much untouched for centuries. I thought I read a while back on here that they were even mentioned in Dusan's laws or something like that? If that is the case then the Tetovo speech is that old as well and can't be labeled by some as 'old Serbian'. If anything is old Serbian its where I feel Serbdom started right (Zeta, Raska, Hercegovina)? FYROM came much later and those inhabitants already spoke at that time a 'Bulgarian dialect'. I saw that because Bulgaria ruled much of that area and most of Kosovo prior to Serbs gaining control in the mid 13th century (correct me, I'm not history buff at all).
I had a Serbian person once tell me that macedonia is Serbian because Tzar Dusan's capital was there and many churches were erected during those times. The only thing, the Ottoman Empire was there and they erected many churches but that didn't mean we were Turks or Muslims either. Veles was called Titov Veles but that didn't mean the villagers were Croat/Slovene either.
I'm not speaking anti Serb, I'm just looking at obvious things that say we from FYROM were never Serbian. Sure there's a community there now but they mostly came after the Balkan Wars and after WWI. All Serbs from any other parts of Ex-Yug use the same words expect dialect differences, yet we speak completely different in Mak. Yes, I have a Serbian accent but doesn't make us Serbs automatically. Like I said, there was no ethnic feeling in Vardar and whoever controlled it (Serb/Bulgarian) that's what the population said they were.
I would rather save face and say I am what I speak=Macedonian, instead of stuggling to speak Serbian around my Serbian friends. Not to mention even though 'lj' and 'nj' are apart the new Mak alphabet people never pronounce those letters in speech.
My village built a Serbian Orthodox church in Detroit but every local Serbian in the area refers to it as 'oh yea, that nice new Macedonian church'. No matter how hard we say and think we're 'Serbs' truly no Serbian see us that way for the mere obvious reason we speak Macedonian.
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Post by srbobran on Jan 6, 2008 19:51:56 GMT -5
Thats terrible mate. That is the exact reason why Serbia fell apart; nobody can accept Serbs from other region as being Serbian. Do you feel Serbian or Fyromian?
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 6, 2008 21:30:09 GMT -5
I used to say I'm a Serb, but like I mentioned the more I interacted with Serbs and Serbians the more I saw ourselves different. Not only in language but also mentality (not saying better/worse just in general) and also customs. While at the same time I noticed commonality between all Serbs regardless from which region/country but not from Mak.
Yes, there were some Slavs that migrated into Tetovo from the border lands of Kosovo but they were very few. I think today some people from Tetovo who say they're Serbs use the fact of 300 old migration's from Kosovo to justify they're Serbness.
Basically its like this, when we're around our own people its easy for us to say we're Serbs, but when we're around true speaking Serbs its very evident just how non Serb we really are. Serb identity is more or less used by the younger generations and/or our diaspora in Detroit today, while the older are pro Serb and seldomly to never say they're Serb they'll usually say 'Yugoslavian'.
I've spent the last few years coming on this forum and reading comments like this main post trying to find something factual that we are Serbs. At the end of the day though we're not, and anyone's family who originated from Kosovo 200-300yrs ago now realistically has like maybe 3% Serb in them.
Identifying as Serbs for us I think was more about identifying with a people who through time fought every big power and did it to protect truth and justice and never sold themselves to the devil. We respected that and longed to be apart of that.
The one thing that could have saved us is if Serbia officialized some Macedonian words as 'Southern Serbia' 100yrs ago. It didn't happen then and not even Vuk Karadzic thought of us as Serbs.
90% of our villagers celebrate the same Slava and its named after our village church. Now if we all came from different areas of Kosovo 300yrs ago(like some of our villagers exaggerate) then wouldn't they have most likely had different Slavas? That's why I believe that Slava only came to our village when it became 'southern serbia' roughly 100yrs ago. It makes no sense otherwise that every kucna Slava is the same and then there's the selska slava.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 7, 2008 0:25:04 GMT -5
"I'm not speaking anti Serb"
No, l understand, your being open minded, l sometimes even play devils advocate.....l'm not saying you are (playing devils advocate), but its good to bring up doubts.
I'm in the opinion that the standard lanuage of Vardar is closer to west bulgarian, l understand that standard vardar lanuage is based from the Prilep dialect. This should not nullify the impact that the influence the serbs had on the culture of vardar. Some will say here that, yes, the lanuage is closer to bulgarian by a technicality because the slavs of vardar and todays bulgaria were under direct influence from the Byzantines which made their lanuages evolve similarily. However, that *may be true* because the serbian army during WW1 came across some slavic villages in Ostrovo who's lanauge resembles Slovenian and there was no difficulty of these slavs conversing with the Slovene volunteers of the serbian front, also, it had been reported that the slavs of Meglen believe too that they were linguistically closer to the Slovenes than of serbs. I had read from somewhere that some slavs from Voden (Edessa) felt their speech was closer to Slovene than to either Bulgarian or Serbian. Slavic (Vardar) customs associated with weddings, slava, funerals, domestic and agricultural life are almost identical with those in the mountain villages of Old Serbia (Kosovo i Metohia) and Montenegro.
"I think the few Serbs that came in our area from Kosovo we very few, hence otherwise they would have impacted the local language. On the other hand, majority of the few that came were from the border villages of Kosovo and Sar so their language was closer to ours (Torlak/Shopski)."
Torlak is known to be a Serbian dialect, its a dialect that blends into West Bulgarian, as does shopski (a Bulgarian dialect) which blends into serbian. These dialects resulted from the Serbian expansion of the middle ages.
"Yes, I have a Serbian accent but doesn't make us Serbs automatically. Like I said, there was no ethnic feeling in Vardar and whoever controlled it (Serb/Bulgarian) that's what the population said they were."
Thats probably a good point, l'm somewhat of the opinion that the vardar population is a hybrid who has lost consciousness of who they are.
"My village built a Serbian Orthodox church in Detroit but every local Serbian in the area refers to it as 'oh yea, that nice new Macedonian church'. No matter how hard we say and think we're 'Serbs' truly no Serbian see us that way for the mere obvious reason we speak Macedonian."
Sadly this is big problem with Serbs in general they become arrogant in the wealthier regions and begin to exclude the poorer brethren....it happens to my family alot, they call us *Siptar* sometimes, l even have a friend who tells me that somewhere in my ancestry there could be some Albanian, l never let it get to me, ahhh stuff em.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 7, 2008 9:21:38 GMT -5
Novi Pazar, what an excellent information!!!
Just a question, while in super market in Brcko, i saw slovenian milk firm and it was "Mleko" just like in ekavica/fyromian/bulgarian. Is there any link, or am i just too far from making a point?
"Sadly this is big problem with Serbs in general they become arrogant in the wealthier regions and begin to exclude the poorer brethren..."
Thats the big problem of all Serbs (and effectively the rest of Bosniaks/Jekavica speaking Croats, in general), i think, and was posed by Sar Planinac some time ago in the old ezboard: Serbs tend to be exclusive nowdays in comparison to the early 20th Century.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 7, 2008 21:04:31 GMT -5
^ Hows it going mate!.
The point l was trying to make above was that when the slavs arrived to the balkans their lanuage was indifferential, it was all common to each other, the lingustic oases found in the south *could prove this point*.
"Mleko"
Bro, i'm not sure how our Bulgarian friends would say Milk, but l would pronounce it as such.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 9, 2008 20:34:34 GMT -5
"Thats the big problem of all Serbs (and effectively the rest of Bosniaks/Jekavica speaking Croats, in general), i think, and was posed by Sar Planinac some time ago in the old ezboard: Serbs tend to be exclusive nowdays in comparison to the early 20th Century."
Put it this way, when l was a kid, we had a family friend from Leskovac (south-east serbia) who said l speak better serbian than you because the way l speak is the proper way from Belgrade. He was basically trying to say: you guys are from kosovo, the underclass, uneducated scum. The biggest problem is the better off upperclass from the north are telling everybody else they are better because they are proper serbs.....again, its stupid but l don't let it get to me, l feel everybody is the same regardless of whos social status rank is.
Sadly, in the past, not today,my father used to tell people that FYROM is crappy and what could possibily grow down there in all that rubble......l think he used that to mask his own life in front of the upperclass serbs - lol
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Post by cando4u on Jan 10, 2008 14:32:56 GMT -5
"22. July 1887. year"
What postal system did they use ?
People were scambling for scraps back then .
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 10, 2008 20:25:27 GMT -5
I think what Novi mentioned about his dad is exactly what many Macedonians experienced around Serbians, hence why they didn't have a problem leaving Yugoslavia.
I had a Bosnian Serb priest in Chicago tell me in my face, 'you Macedonians are nice people but I hear you guys are very soft and weak?' I was stunned, I didn't even say I was Macedonian just that my parents were born there. My pride kicked in and all I responded was 'yes we're nice and we're not 'warrior' like but at least we don't marry Muslims and Catholics and contridict our patriotism'.
He just smirked and gave me that sarcastic Serbian look like how the heck are you Macedonian seljak to say that to me. Just this week I went to a Serb church for Christmas and the guy I bought the candles from laughed at how I spoke Serbian (I can tell you my Serbian is pretty good), it felt so awkard I wanted to beat the guy.
I try to be part of the community that my ancestors came from yet I/we're pushed aside and looked at as peasant poor farmers that don't deserve a life. Oh well, it is what it is, I understand why a slogan CCCC had to be put in place 800yrs ago or so.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 10, 2008 21:47:16 GMT -5
"I had a Bosnian Serb priest in Chicago tell me in my face, 'you Macedonians are nice people but I hear you guys are very soft and weak?' I was stunned, I didn't even say I was Macedonian just that my parents were born there. My pride kicked in and all I responded was 'yes we're nice and we're not 'warrior' like but at least we don't marry Muslims and Catholics and contridict our patriotism'." That makes me laugh, the guy is a priest, he should accept everyone in his flock....these people who say things like this are either arrogant or uneducated, but a priest? ....wow "He just smirked and gave me that sarcastic Serbian look like how the heck are you Macedonian seljak to say that to me. Just this week I went to a Serb church for Christmas and the guy I bought the candles from laughed at how I spoke Serbian (I can tell you my Serbian is pretty good), it felt so awkard I wanted to beat the guy." Its funny, when l was single, l used to go to serbian club nights here in Melb, in the mid 90's, and l tell you what, l think serbian girls are *the hardest to pick up*, i did everything (every trick in the book) and l used to wonder how do these guys score a beautiful serb girl, what, by looking sad and doing nothing when their in there because every time i went, it was like that....then l came to the conclusion that you have to be in their community flock, your mother has to know the girls mother, so u got a chance to pick up....this happened to a friend of mine, his mother knew the girls mother and set them up....l was unlucky because all my parents friends had no children or ones that were married. Point being, if your not in their general common flock, they make fun and exclude you....yours is more severe than what happens to my family, sadly!. "I try to be part of the community that my ancestors came from yet I/we're pushed aside and looked at as peasant poor farmers that don't deserve a life. Oh well, it is what it is, I understand why a slogan CCCC had to be put in place 800yrs ago or so." It is annoying, but don't let it get to you too much, but the best to do is educate them.
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Post by ljubotan on Jan 11, 2008 23:29:24 GMT -5
Ironically Novi, I met my Montenegrin wife in a Serbian church; so it hasn't been all that bad:)
Funny because the priest that said that to me back in 02' is from Banja Luka but was also a priest in Austrialia prior to coming to Chicago's Nova Gracanica.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 12, 2008 22:46:49 GMT -5
"Ironically Novi, I met my Montenegrin wife in a Serbian church; so it hasn't been all that bad:)"
See, at the time, l never thought of that....oh, well bad luck hehehe
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