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Post by macmako on Jun 29, 2009 16:17:16 GMT -5
Miloš Obilić is truly a worthy Serb, and all Serbs of today should emulate his honor and bravery. Serbs today may be brave, but they lack honor and end up doing many disgusting things because of that.
Controversy hangs over where Miloš Obilić is from, but everyone knows he is Serbian. The Serbs should be proud of this legend.
No, he was not Albanian.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 29, 2009 20:58:35 GMT -5
In Kosova? Didn't we just prove the opposite above? Or would you explain Zhuri, for example, through Serbian?
Neither me nor anyone else in this forum claimed we were a majority in Kosova during the Middle Age. We did regain lost ground (Kosova) during the 1600s mostly, but this doesn't mean we were an insignificiant element prior to this either. Ottoman defters (censuses) confirm this much. Even medieval Serbian documents confirm the presence of Arbanasi in Kosova, many of whom were being linguistically Slavicized during this period.
What a moron. Dasinovac and Demovic are Slavicized Albanian toponyms, not vice-versa. shejtani merely typed them in the Slavic form to demonstrate that these aren't modern innovations but rather old toponyms adopted by the Serbs as well. The root to the first topony comes from the word dash, meaning "ram", and was a common name (and is still found at a lesser rate, mostly as a surname), e.g. Dasho, Dash, Dashi, which is probably related to the old Illyrian name of Dassius. The second toponym comes from the word dem or demi in the definite article, meaning "bull" and is also a personal name/surname, e.g. Dem, Demush, Demaj, Demushaj, Demaci, Dema etc.
You sound as if there is a general concensus on Albanians being absent in this battle ... it is really the other way around. Albanian, Turkish & Serbian sources confirm our presence in the battle. In the 16th century, an exiled prince from Albania named John Muzaka would write a piece of work on his family's history, where he also mentions the participation of his ancestor, Theodor Muzaka, in the battle of Kosova, with thousands of soldiers, 4,000 of whom never left the field. Many other things mentioned in this work of John Muzaka have been verified, suggesting there is no reason to doubt him in this regard either.
The earliest Turkish sources confirm Albanian participation too, among many other nations who took part in the Christian coalition, all synthetized into a single work by Mehmed Neþrî. There is little reason to believe we were not present. Albanians had played an important role in Serbian armies before this as well, (like in the conquest of Northern Greece) and to project modern nationalist sentiments so far into history and think Lazar wouldn't of welcomed and sent for help among all his neighbours to face the Sultan is moronic.
Finally, concerning Kopilic (Obilic is a modern intentional distortion of this medieval name to make it more Serbian) there are many contradicting claims on him, neither of which were made in this thread before you came here. Some say he was even a Vlach or possibly Hungarian. The reason for this last category is because some connect his (real) name with the Serbian word for mare, kobila, 'kobilovic, son of a mare' -- likewise, Neþrî mentions a certain Dimitri Yundoðlu, commander of the left wing of the coalition army where foreign troops were stationed (Hungarians and Germans). The word "yund" is old Turkish for mare. The name Dimitri (as opposed to Milos) in this case might be a confusion, perhaps with Mito which is a diminutive of Dimitri. Either way, this is interesting, because of all the nationalities who participated in the battle, the Hungarians in particular held a special relation to horses. In rural medieval Hungary, ancient beliefs connected to shamanism had survived, and of all the totem animals, the horse was the most powerful.
All of this, ironically, lead us to the accounts of the battle given by an anonymous Catalan writer who probably wrote his piece of work before 1402, which is an exaggerated and romantic account on the life of Yakub, Sultan Bayezit's brother and Murad's son. Most of his work is fictional, hence not many people have given much attention to his final chapter involving the battle ... which seyts apart itself totally from the rest of the work in its accuracy in describing local place-names, Ottoman customs and details of the battle which were verified by other historical documents, such as the Turks using chained camels to attack the coalition. The Catalan writes that Lazar placed a large contingent of Germans and Hungarians on the front of the army, at the request of a big Hungarian man. This party later assaulted the Turks and broke through their lines, and the Hungarian knight who swore to personally fight Sultan Murad, finally reached the Sultan and delt him a deadly blow with his lance.
There is no reason to dispute the presence of Hungarians in Lazar's army. His son-in-law was Nicholas Garai, one of the most powerful nobles of Hungary. Any knight sent by him would've been given an honorable position in the army. Could it also be that Milos is a mere corruption of Miklós, the Hungarian version of the name Nicholas? That this confusion arose in the work of the Catalan because he did not differentiate between the sent knight and his lord, Nicholas (Miklós) Garai? Finally, the legend of the nine Jugovici gives more fuel to this fire. In the earliest record of this song, the version given is actually Ugovici, and the very first line in that version linked the brothers to the 'ugarski', i.e. Hungarian nobles (see Miletich, ed. and tr., Bugarštica, p. 14; 'Od ugarske gospode i od brace Ugovica'). Perhaps the original form was ugarovici, a band of Hungarian knights given an honorable position, ho through their strong assault, managed to break through Ottoman lines and bring down the Sultan.
Think about it. Milos Kopilic wasn't even much celebrated by the Serbs until lately; a far more popular hero was the treacherous Marko Kraljevic, who participated in the battle in the Sultan's side.
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Post by ilirdardani on Jun 29, 2009 21:38:52 GMT -5
Donnie should be an Admin here with all the knowledge he has.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 0:11:41 GMT -5
Donnie should be tagged as instigator. his BS is unbelievable.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 0:13:42 GMT -5
Donnie sounds quite reasonable again and I agree with what he ve posted again. DEMOSTHENES IS THE REASONABLE GUY!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Thanx Demo about Obilic!!!
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 30, 2009 0:35:56 GMT -5
Learn his name you idiot. Historically, the protagonist in question was called Miloss Kobyla, Milos Cobilith, Milossus Kobyliczh, Milosch Khobilovitz, Milo Comnene and Minkos Koplaki, to mention some. Never Obilic. The name was changed to Obilic (from obilje, meaning 'abundance' or 'riches', to make it more Serbian) very late ... even in Serbian folklore, the hero was known as Milos Kobilic.
There are two villages in my home-region of Drenica with the name of Upper and Lower Kopiliq. Folk legends link these villages to the medieval hero, and there are many local stories about him, a further testimony to the participation of Albanians in the battle.
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Post by srbobran on Jun 30, 2009 1:05:53 GMT -5
Yes, you were an insignificant factor in the middle ages. The Decani charters list a mere 3 of 89 settlements in Kosovo were Albanian. Simply saying they confirm this doesn't make it so. Anyways, regaining is a colorful way to put it. Albanians were simply filling up empty land that never belonged to them (and don't give me that Illyrians crap, Albanians were first mentioned in the Balkans in the late 11th century)
Don't call me a moron you filthy piece of shit, I kept the discussion clean and you don't have the human decency to do the same. Alright, we'll have it your way. Dem also has a meaning in Serbian which is roughly translated to "bit" or "piece".
Show me the sources because so far, I haven't found any. All I've found is Albanians posting on forums CLAIMING that Albanians fought at Kosovo, but again, no historical evidence. Everything I found points that the vast majority of the forces were Serbs from Bosnia and Serbia proper with contingents of Hungarians, Croats, and Germans.
Quit pussy footing around my question, show me some concrete evidence that he wasn't a Serb. You're talking lots but there's absolutely no substance in any of what your saying. I want hard evidence saying he wasn't a Serb, no random hearsay that "some" claim to know. Your being vague because your pulling facts out of your ass and you know that the ONLY "proof" Albanians have of him being Albanians is a distortion THEY put on his last name (ie.adding the "K" for no apparent logical reason).
Twelve Serbian knights broke through the Turkish line and any one of them could have killed the Sultan. However , the general consensus is that this man was a SERB (most identify Milos Obilic)
The Hungarians were allies, I don't dispute this at all. They were thousands upon thousands of Serbs in the Hungarian army too. Its common knowledge.
As far as the Jugovici are concerned, again, your facts are based on pure speculation with no solid, HISTORICAL basis. As far as legitimate history is concerned, they were Serbs and there is nothing that suggests the contrary.
Bullshit. You lived 50 , 100, 150 years ago that you can make comments like that, that you KNOW what or who people in Serbia liked back then? Bullshit. Milos Obilic is one of the most celebrated Serbian heroes of all time.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 1:57:20 GMT -5
Pokemon the Digimon the Dingedong, i never read your posts, you can curse as much as you want.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 2:05:01 GMT -5
Srbobran, good points and nice style of conversation. Now, Novi and Srbobran a question about Epiros/eastern Thessaly...... I am staring with a WTF? ?? Bizani (Bizanj) Epiros and Smokovo near Karditsa are found ONLY IN CROATIA, near the coast? Could it be consider related to krajina? Bižanj is near hercegovina, just north to Montenegro, while Smokovo in Rijeka. Is my wife originally from ........... the same place as i?WTF? ?
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 2:21:03 GMT -5
Novi, Selishev was Russian and he was talking about Slavic toponyms. It is easy to check, why don't you learn to google a little before posting stupid statements.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 2:22:55 GMT -5
Novi, Selishev was Russian and he was talking about Slavic toponyms. It is easy to check, why don't you learn to google a little before posting stupid statements. because internet is full of sh1tty and biased altered and distorted bits of 0 and 1. However REAL LIBRARIES, WHERE NOVI GOES IS THE ORIGINAL SOURCE OF INFO. i hope i answered your stupid question? PS Did you score yesterday at the swimming pool?
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 2:28:54 GMT -5
Post a source in whatever language that says Selishev is half Bulgarian/half Russian. If you can't do that, i expect you to admit in a separate topic that you speak with your arse.
Thanks for the interest. I don't score in front of hundreds of people, I have a home for that.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 30, 2009 2:44:00 GMT -5
The Zica charter of 1210 gives the name of 208 individuals; of these, 154 are Serb, and 54 are Albanian and Vlach. In the Banjska charter of 1313-1314, 444 Serb names are given, and 117 are clearlu Albanian and Vlach. Percentually, we're dealing with 35 per cent non-Serb names in the first charter and some twenty-six per cent in the second. If this is insignificant, then the Serb and non-Albanian element in Kosova today must be obsolete to you.
And yes, we were regaining lost lands. Albanians were firstly mentioned in the 2nd century BC, by Polybius (Arbanitai). In the 1st century and 2nd century AD we're mentioned again by Pliny and Strabo as Olbonenses and Albanoi.
You deserved it for being so stupid. You strengthen my case by suggesting Demovic must be Serbian. Why would anyone name smth "son of bit" or "son of piece", because that's your explanation behind the etymology of Demovic. What's your explanation behind the toponym of Zhuri?
Read what I wrote earlier. If scanned images of original manuscripts is what you're looking for, I cannot help you.
Look d!ckweed, what you call "pvssy footing" is all you can do when dealing with an event that took place some 620 years ago, and when much of the "facts" surrounding it are nothing but the romantic fictionalization of historical events by folklore and revisionists. You make it evident by sincerely claiming WE are the ones to distort the name of Kopilovic ... when all serious scholars agree that it is the SERBS who've corrupted his name by eliminating the first 'K'. All original documents include the "K", lol. If anything is certain, it is that everything about the battle of Kosova is uncertain; even the outcome, which some consider a draw or even a Serbian victory. Everything, but one thing; that Obilic is a recent corruption of the original name, which included a "K".
Either way, it's pretty clear you're not inquisitively driven. You have already made up your mind and you sincerely mistake Serbian myths and fabrications for "historical facts".
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 2:48:45 GMT -5
Ruse, in the interactive process of evolution/education/development of one person's mind, a fundamental and essential characteristic present is the one of TRUST. You cant go through school->university->MSc just by denying everything and reinventing the wheel in each page, cause that would mean 100% educational and mental retard at best. Some one has to have a set of mechanisms which would ensure-verify if a source is trusted or not. Each new knowledge CREATED or learned from ex-work of others is added to the pool of already gained knowledge, and that is how it works.
Now work CREATED or FOUND by NOVI is 100% absolutely trusted by me. I have my own reasons for saying this, and they do not have to do with pro-serb bias. Besides no Serbia or Serb even gave any money or incentive or pushed me in any way to believe what i believe, that is clear 100%.
However knowledge presented by you or Ioan has not convinced anyone, except the ones who benefit politically by such interpretations of history and i explain:
1) The greek school which thinks that adding FYROM to Bulgaria, will automagically erase any problem 2) The albo school which blindly fights anything pro-serb
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 2:58:45 GMT -5
Pyrro, post a souce Selishev was half Bulgarian.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 3:35:42 GMT -5
Ask Novi to provide a photocopy of the book which says so. I never had any reason to doubt about the authenticity of what he writes, so i won't bother.
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 3:44:15 GMT -5
Pyrro, give me the source. Back up your claims.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 30, 2009 4:02:32 GMT -5
Pyrro, give me the source. Back up your claims. THIS WAS NOT KNOWLEDGE PRODUCED OR DISCOVERED BY ME, i explained to you earlier how the human knowledge evolves, i wont repeat it. (i am not a fan of repetitiveness)
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 30, 2009 4:03:06 GMT -5
"Pyrro, give me the source. Back up your claims."
Ruse, l ask, why has the serbian culture managed to survive in the climate of the Bulgarian Exarchate?
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Post by rusebg on Jun 30, 2009 4:07:03 GMT -5
Novi, I can ask you why coalas smell badly. This is not the point. Give me a source Selishev was Bulgarian.
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