Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 1, 2009 8:13:01 GMT -5
The red dots are slavic toponyms: ;D
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 1, 2009 8:23:15 GMT -5
^ you see Pyrro, one thing l didn't want to mention to some debators here, including the selishev crap with Ruse because l wanted to see how much inventive theories we will get, but more importantly the topoynmns with the Dj or Lj are serbian, bulgars don't have such a thing, l know that the debators where highlighting the vec suffix, hey the bulgars where bulgarianising regions in serbia like Leskovac as Leskovec so what do you do.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 1, 2009 8:51:27 GMT -5
Novi i dont have time, but if any serious scientist did a research at least on south albo, he might find that the majority of toponyms are found with their greatest density in todays Krajina. NOTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO ANYTHING BALGHARIAN!
cool hint for Lj, Dj i'll keep it in mind bro!
i think slavs of western greece/south alb moved up north via the sea... Smokovo and Bizanj are two such examples.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 1, 2009 9:00:24 GMT -5
Pyrro, same dude, if l had more time l would be writing volumes here, but sadly its a quick hi bye type of cenario.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 1, 2009 12:06:57 GMT -5
Gyrros, didn't you say you dont read my posts? Yet you respond to them? You are such a liar.
As for those dots; I just proved alot of those "Slavic" toponyms aren't Slavic at all.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 1, 2009 12:09:40 GMT -5
Where did I claim Kopilic as an Albanian? I was saying there is a good probability that the guy was a Hungarian knight sent by Nicholas Garai to aid Lazar.
But you're obviously more of a retard than I thought if you sincerely think Obilic was his original surname. Not even Serb historians believe that shyt.
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Post by srbobran on Jul 1, 2009 13:11:30 GMT -5
I don't really care about the fact that you didn't reply to some of my post but hat happened to my request for the sources? I take it their made up? Show them to me for fvck's sake. But it still makes no sense, you can't just magically skip 900 years and then claim being indigenous. You would think there would be some reference to your people (also with Vlachs there are sparse, but occasional references to them). Anyways, its common sense that they are likely Latinized Natives simply by the fact that the area from which they hail (ie. Dacia/Illyira etc.) was one of the most heavily Romanized and colonized areas of the Empire and simply the fact that they SPEAK vulgar Latin is enough to prove that they are Romanized locals. Interesting. What exactly are Albanian phonetic laws and what exactly are Serbian/Slavic phonetic laws? And provide an actual link or something I'm interested in this. There are indeed many, many Slavic toponyms in Albania (just look at the map) and Highduke didn't make it up, he quoted historians on it (make fun of him all you want but at least he cites references). They do prove something, they prove that a significant Slavic population was present, significant enough to alter the preexisting place names. If a population is native to somewhere you expect the placenames to be largely native (ie. belonging to the group claiming to be native) but clearly, a large part of the placenames are not and this cannot be attested to Slavic rule in an area because as I pointed out, the Welsh have been ruled by the Germanic English for hundreds of years yet their places names are still of predominantly Welsh origins. As for Kosovo, I found a source: "Namely, in that area there is not one single toponym whose origin could be found in the Albanian language. All of the toponyms in that area which in historical literature was designated as Old Serbia are either Serbian or Slavicised Roman names and the Shiptars who live there today call some villages either by names translated into Albanian or use some Turkish names arising from the time when these regions were under Turkish rule." Kosovo Origins, Hugo Roth www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter13.htmlWhen the hell did I say I thought you were from the Causcus? Personally, I don't study Albanian origin theories, its just that I'm not buying the whole, pure Illyrian crap. You probably have some Illyrian heritage, but so do Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins, and Croats Anyways,while were on the topic, purely out of interest, how do you explain the many identical placenames in Albania and the Caucus Mountains? Again, I'm gonna ask for some actual evidence suggesting he was a Hungarian? Also, if you think the standard for determining a retard is the difference between "Kobilic" and "Obilic" than clearly you've assigned the title of retard to the wrong person. Anyways, all these personal insults are achieving is exposing your utter insecurity.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 2, 2009 10:20:12 GMT -5
Didn't I already mention the Turkish historian Neþrî, whose synthetized work is based on a number of early Ottoman documents written just a few years after the battle in question? These documents mention our participation. Neþrî writes; " To the aid of Lazar came Hungarians, Vlachs, Czechs, Albanians ..." From his work 'Cihan Numaa', page 71, analyzed and published by Franc Taechner in Leipzig 1951 (" Die altosmanischen Hroniken des Mevlana Mehmet Neschri"). Not only contemporary documents, but also the local Albanian folklore and epic songs commemorated and remembered this battle, in particular the protagonist, Millosh Kopiliqi (Milos Kobilic). Then we also have the valuable work of John Muzaka, whose work has many verifiable facts in it, giving the picture of a trustworthy writer. Here is what he writes about the battle of Kosova; " When Murad the Second took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar, the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost. It was there that the above-mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of Albanians with him, was slain. The said Lazar of Serbia was taken prisoner and later slain. Now began a period of continuous warfare with the Turks in Albania, in which many lords and gentlemen gave their lives. As mentioned above, it was a lack of courage among them that caused them to lose their states. The city of Croya (Kruja) fell during the reign of Bayazid the First, as later did Velona (Vlora), although we defended them without interruption. Nonetheless, the power of the sultan continued to grow and our power continued to diminish." www.forumishqiptar.com/showthread.php?t=41100Not only this, but there were plenty of Albanians in the regions controlled and ruled by Vuk Brankovic. As a martial people, we were most probably sought for by the Serbian nobles who were about to face their strongest enemy so far. Albanians had played a major role in Dusan's campaign in Northern Greece a few decades earlier. There's little doubt his army was composed of alot of Albanians in the battle of Nerodimlje too, against his own father (since the army he took off with was based in Shkoder). The same probably occured here, in addition to the force brought by Theodor Muzaka. Didn't I already provide them? As I said earlier, the battle of Kosova is extremely dim, the only thing we know for certainty is that both Lazar and Murat were killed, and that Bayezit succeeded his father, was left in possesion of the field and later left to ensure his position as the new Sultan. Anything else is uncertain ... including the ethnicity of Kobilic. I already mentioned the anonymous Catalan writer. His work must be written before 1402, because in the begining of his text, he says Sultan Bayezit is still ruling (in 1402, Bayezit was defeated and captured by Timur Leng of Samarkand in the battle of Ankara). It is there he mentions the "big Hungarian man" who insists he be positioned in the front of the army with his group of German and Hungarian knights: " ... he made his way, with his lance at the ready, and struck him such a blow with the power of his horse, that the shield and the cuirasses which Murat was wearing were all penetrated, and the tip of the lance pierced his side to the depth of four fingers' breadth, and Murat fell very badly wounded to the ground ..." Pacheco, ed., História, pp. 141-7. The link between the Ugovici and Ugarovici was explained earlier. Also, there is good reason to believe Kobilic might come from the Serbian word for mare. Likewise, the Ottoman mentioned a Dimitri Yundoglu ('son of a mare'), and the Hungarian folk-belief still held the horse as a holy totem. Hungarian nobility adopted this rural tradition and often carried totem symbols. Perhaps this big Hungarian man was such a noble, sent by Nicholas Garai and given a position of honour by Lazar. The anonymous Catalan also writes about the desertation of Vuk Brankovic, but he doesn't describe it as treason, but merely as desertion. Perhaps the idea of him being a traitor arose in the people's folk-memory through a fusion between the first and second battle of Kosova; in the latter, George Brankovic did play a destructive role which led to a devestating defeat of Janós Hunyadi, 1448. It is retarded if you think Obilic was his actual name, when all medieval accounts on him mention his last name with a "K" in the beginning; to anyone with half a brain or who isn't in a state of denial, the modification to "Obilic" is just an artificial stylization with a nationalistic motive to completely Serbianize the figure of Kobilic.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 2, 2009 10:39:25 GMT -5
If it makes sense for the Vlachs, it makes sense for us too. It isn't all too difficult to imagine a pastoral population living a secluded life in the high grounds of the Balkans. Furthermore, there was no particular reason for Byzantine writers to distinguish Albanians from the rest, as we were citizens of the Eastern Roman empire. In the 1000s, however, a political shift to partial autonomy with Kruja as our centre led to a need for a term to adress this new political phenomenon in Albania. Hence why we were mentioned in the 1000s, and not earlier.
I already mentioned some of those above. I don't have the nerves to search books and quote Cabej and others for you. But just to illustrate. In ancient Illyria, or the Roman province of Illyrian, you had one Scardona (or Scardus mons) in Southern Illyria and one Scardona in Dalmatia (today's Croatia). In the north, there was no Albanian intermediary, because the locals were all Romanized and spoke a Latin dialect. The Slavs adopted the name directly from them, and today we have Skradin (search it). This is in accordance with the phonetic laws of South Slavic. But in southern Illyria, there was a local un-Romanized population dwelling in the mountains. Scardona became Shar, in accordance with Albanian phonetic rules, hence Serbs also know it as Sar Planina, and Turks as Sar Dag.
Again, as I said earlier, the important thing is to study ancient toponyms and their phonetic evolution to establish smth certain. Village names aren't as longlasting as names of towns, rivers, mountains. They come and go. There is a similiar dense presence of Slavic toponymy in Romania, and was also in Greece (where you still have some unchanged Slavic names like Kozani, Metsovo, Zagori and so forth). Does this mean the Slavs came to Greece before the Greeks? No! It simply means the Slavs or Slavicized locals came at some point, occupied the territory and pushed the locals up to higher elevation or/and within city walls. But eventually, they were pressed back or absorbed, especially in Albania and Greece, while in other areas, like Dalmatia, the Slavs were obviously too numerous to be pushed back.
Finally, the importance of local Slav toponymy has been exaggerated as exemplified earlier, not to mention some of those toponyms have been founded by locals through Slavic loan words.
False. We already provided a number of local toponyms that are explained through Albanian. Even medieval Serbian charters mentuion them, adding Slavic suffixes, like Flokovci, Shpinadinci, Ujemir and so on.
Nobody is "pure" anything, but we're the only ones besides the Greek to have preserved a pre-Roman and pre-Slavic language and identity. You on the other hand, might indeed have a good amount of Illyrian or Thracian blood in you, but it doesn't change the fact that you're ethnically and linguistically Slavs.
They aren't "identical"; most of them barely have one letter in common, others are an Ottoman legacy. This link is not supported anywhere outside the pseudo-scholar world of highdyke and his loyal band of gay fans.
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Post by srbobran on Jul 2, 2009 14:20:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I already acknowledged the fact that there were foreigners (even some Albanians) in our ranks, there were foreigners in every armies ranks at the time, the usage of foreign troops was extremely commonplace in those times. I still have no evidence to suggest that the large majority of the troops at Kosovo weren't Serbs. You try to make it seem like we were a minority in our own army which is false. The Byzantines (Greeks) were even a majority in their own armies and they used mercenaries more than anyone else. There were like small, foreign contingents but the large bulk of the troops came from almost exclusively Serb lands and were likely Serbs themselves.
LOL. You're going to use ALBANIAN folklore as a source? Tell me, what makes Albanian folklore any less reliable or exaggerated then Serbian folklore? This is absolutely ridiculous, if folklore is now a primary source than you might as well include the Serbian ones in your sources.
No there weren't plenty of Albanians in the regions controlled by Vuk Brankovic. You're basically just saying there were even though the Decani charters CLEARLY prove otherwise. You mentioned two other charters that supposedly back your statements up but you have failed to show me any proof of the content you're claiming they provide. So far, according to the Decani Charters (which by the way are closer to the date of the Battle of Kosovo than those other two ones you claim to have) there were 3 Albanian villages in a total of 89 ones (so 86 Serbian ones).
As far as Dusan's campaigns, I was aware that rather than actually conquer Albania he simply made treaties with local nobility. I was not aware that they however, took part in some of his campaigns, do you have any more information on this?
As for his army based in Skadar, you forget that since the very founding of medieval (Slavic) Dioclea, Skadar was a Serbian city. In fact it was Serbian right up until the Turks, later Venetians conquered it. There is little doubt that after at least 400-500 years of being a principle (sometimes capital) city in a Serbian state(s), that Serbs formed the demographic majority in the city.
Yes, but Coluccio Salutati, the very FIRST account of the assassination, mentions that Murad was assassinated by one of twelve Serbian noblemen who broke through the Turkish ranks. His letter is dated 20,October 1389.
No, it was explained because HISTORY (not some pseudo name game) states that Jug Bogdan's real name was Vratko Nemanjic . He was a son of Zhupan Vratislav (a Serbian nobleman. His grandfater was Dimitrije Nemanjic, his great grandfather was Vukan Nemanjic, and his great great grandfather was Stefan Nemanja himself.
If Kobilic is derived from "son of mare" (in Serbian) and this Ottoman historian mentions a "son of mare" at the battlefield, then I don't understand why he cannot be a Serb. His surname is clearly Serbian and so is his first name (Athenian historian Laonicus Chalcondyles clearly states that his name is Milos so you cannot call this yet another "Serbian forgery"). The name Milos is a Slavic, but almost exclusively Serbian name. If both his first and last names are Serbian, than I really don't see any conclusive evidence suggesting his was a Magyar.
Also, from my readings, I have seen that in quite a few Ottoman chronicles, Vuk Brankovic is said to have fought well in the battle and that his demonization in Serbian epic poetry can be attributed to his rival, Princess Milica.
Source:http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SERBIA.htm#_ftnref354
You would think there would be some reference to your people (also with Vlachs there are sparse, but occasional references to them). Anyways, its common sense that they are likely Latinized Natives simply by the fact that the area from which they hail (ie. Dacia/Illyira etc.) was one of the most heavily Romanized and colonized areas of the Empire and simply the fact that they SPEAK vulgar Latin and are located in the Balkans is enough to prove that they are Romanized locals.
Anyways, yes, you were citizens of the Empire. But so where Athenians, Greeks from the Peloponese, Greeks from Asia Minor, Pontus etc. If there was no real reason to distinguish between people from parts than why were people from different cities distiniguished, let alone different geographical areas?
And actually (to respond to someone else's post), Byzantine chronicles in the 5th and 6th century AD makes references to the Vlachs as well as an obscure mention to a duke Vlachernos from "Scythia" some time later.
Alright, then I'll simply attribute any Albanian placenames to lan words we acquired from you.
Honestly, I'll take a widely acclaimed, professional historian's word over your any day of the week and so will just about anybody (other than your fellow countrymen).
Illyrian was centum, Albanian was Satem. So few words in Illyrian are known that any affinity between your languages would be extrmely hard to prove. One thing that is known however, is that the Illyrians spoke a language in a different subgroup than Albanians. If a few similar vocavulary words is all you have, than I can also provide a list of common Illyrian-Serbian words (I'll try to dig up the source and post it).
You're identity isn't Illyrian, its Albanian and the only time you began referring to yourselves as Illyrians was when the Austrians stopped call SERBS Illyrians and started calling Albanians Illyrians. It was the COMMUNIST REGIME that began implementing name changes to "sound more Illyrian" and that forced an Illyrian identity on the Albanians. You calling yourself an Illyrian isn't a legacy of an ancient past but a legacy of a communist government that held sway in your country for 60 years.Prior to the end of the 19th century, Byzantine, Frankish, Austrian, German etc. chroniclers designated the Serbs to be the inheritors of the Illyrian identity (and we inherited some things from them to, for example, the Coat of arms of Triballia, an ancient Illyro-Thracian tribe, is shown on the flag of the first Serbian uprising).
If I have a good amount of Illyrian blood in me than how am i ethnically a Slav? Slav is a linguistic designation, not an ethnic one. The bottom line is that there is a possibility Albanians could be one of the descendants of the Illyrians, but in this case, so are Croats, Serbs, and Bosnians.
Anyways, I'm actually going on vacation to the States for about a week so I won't be able to reply again until I get back. Cheers.
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Post by shejtani on Jul 3, 2009 10:56:21 GMT -5
Noone knows if Illyrian was satem or centum ...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 3, 2009 13:06:56 GMT -5
I think there were more than "some" Albanians, but it's good you atleast admit that much. Initially you didn't even want to acknowledge that little.
What do the Decani charters really prove? They single out three settlements, but it doesn't really mean ALL Albanians were restricted to only those three villages. There are villages described as 'Vlach', yet the inhabitants have either Slavonic or Albanian names. Yet Albanian anthroponyms are to be found throughout Kosova and even in southern Serbia during the Middle Age. In the Decani charter, we find names like Gin, Lul, Les, Bardi, Progon, Prenko, Bardonja, Laloje, Lalzim, Dedoje, Dedac, Muzak in the villages of Isnic, Gramocel, Xerxe, Cabic, Susican and many others (S. Novakovic, Zakonski Spomenici, Beograd, p. 8, 16, 36, 46, 72 & 84). Do the names sound particularly Slavonic? Not to mention in the Ottoman defters ofthe 15th and 16th century, where the Albanian presence is massive, or Michael Lukarevic's account on Novo Brdo.
That Shkoder was the centre of Slavic kingdoms doesn't mean the city and vicinity was Slavonic as well in its makeup. Local toponymy and early censuses conducted by the Turks prove this.
I'm not disputing the Vlachs' autochtony -- precisely the contrary. Knowing they are autochtonous, and yet missing in contemporary Byzantine documents, prove that it was possible to not be mentioned and still be physically present in the Balkans. You say there are references to them? Could you provide some source? And if indirect sources, like a duke Vlachernos from Scythia is sufficient for you, perhaps you will accept the indirect mention of Albania done by K. Porphyrogenitus (905-959 AD) in the DAI. There, he mentions Caucasus in the same sentence as Illyria, as if Illyria was some geographic location in Caucasus. Historically, there has never been an Illyria in Caucasus, or a Caucasus in Illyria. The common denominator is Albania; one in Illyria and one in Caucasus. It proves that there existed one Albania in Illyria in Porphyrogenitus' head, otherwise the confusion wouldn't of come up.
But this isn't really the biggest evidence. The great impact Latin has had on our vocabulary, and quite a few ancient Greek (Doric) loan words that exist in Albanian, the onomastic evidence and so forth, all confirm our autochtonous position.
Some you can, like Katunska, Katun, or toponyms related to other words borrowed from proto-Albanian, like vatra, kopil and so forth.
Firstly, we don't know what Illyrian was. We have no Illyrian text to make such a conclusion. Furthermore, the satem nature of Albanian has been debated, and there are some linguists who consider it as smth intermediary. Therefore, this argument does not cut it.
And we're as close as Illyrian as it gets. We are the only ones to have preserved a language and an ethnic identity that preceeds the Romans and Slavs. So what if we have not called ourselves Illyrians continuously. We don't call ourselves Arbëresh either, like our medieval ancestors, yet there's no dispute we descend from them. Likewise, the medieval Greeks adressed themselves as Romioi (Romans) rather than Hellenes, and the self-designation Ellhnes was only reintroduced in the nineteenth century. This doesn't however change the fact that the modern Greeks are direct descendants of ancient Greeks. Sure, they aren't "pure", but they speak Greek and have Greek customs and embrace their legacy.
The same with us. The Albanians were one Illyrian tribe, much like the Hellenes were also one tribe in Thessaly, and from them all Greeks were to be called Hellenes. Of all the Illyrians that were once so numerous, only we preserved our pre-Roman and pre-Slavic identity and language, hence we're the closest you can get to being Illyrian in a modern sense. You on the other hand might have Illyrian blood, but you have Slavic blood as well, and probably other blood too. But your language is Slavic, and you as an ethnicity, as a distinct nation and identity, only arose with the invasion of Slavs in the 600s, hence why you're not Illyrian, even though you might have some Illyrian in you (which I never questioned).
Cheers to you. You know, speaking of cheers, the Illyrian deity of wine was called Dualos. Coincidentally, the Albanian word for being drunk is i dejur. Interesting, don't you think.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 3, 2009 13:30:56 GMT -5
Where did I claim folklore to be my primary source? Folklore is very unreliable when we're searching for objectivity and hard facts. But the very fact that we've commemorated the battle and have a tradition of songs dedicated to Kopiliqi and the battle, suggest a folk memory passed from generation to generation.
But this isn't my primary fact at all. You saw the quote from Neºri and John Muzaka. They aren't the only ones though. Jerakos of Athens, wrote following;
"When the Turks crossed Dacia and Mysia, they reached the borders of Serbia ... the despot Lazar of Serbia, the Bulgarians and the lords of Albania, from Dardania, Mysia, the Acroceraunos, Epirus and the Adriatic shores, decided to fight. And so they did, but they did not succeed well. They gathered and fought the Turks, but Lazar and many others lost their lives ..."
Jerakos, Hronikon peri tes ton Tourkon basileias, from C. Sathas' "Bibliotheca Graeca", vol. I, Venetiis, 1872, p. 247-248. Intrestingly enough, to Jerakos, Albania included Dardania (Kosova) as well as Epirus.
As for Dusan's campaign in Northern Greece; it was composed by Albanians who wanted revenge on the Byzantines for mistreating them previously. They later turned on the Serbs in Thessaly, killing their leader Gregor Preljub, whose son, Thomas Preljubovic, ruler of Ioannina, would later become the sworn enemy of all Albanian. I think there are Serbian sources on this, i'll look it up some other time.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 4, 2009 8:45:14 GMT -5
It might also be due the fact that alot of our ancestors professed animal husbandry and would move from place to place (semi-nomadic). This is also why these charters might underestimate the number of Albanians and Vlachs, since people continuously on the move are harder to register and tax.
This might also explain the prevalence of Slavic toponymy as well. I'm not saying a majority of the populace in Kosova during the Middle Age was non-Slavic, just that this element is underestimated because pastoral people on the move were probably not so much accounted for. Pastoral people didn't have permanent settlements during the Middle Age. There was a special word for their temporary settlements; katun. This proto-Albanian word has entered both in the Romanian and Slavic languages, and while today (in Albanian) it might have the meaning of a village, in the Middle Age it had the meaning of a pastoral settlement of tents. Now, much like city names would endure the changes of time better than villages, so would villages be more immune to change than temporary pastoral settlements.
The majority of Slavs were sedentary peasants, usually landtied serfs required to do labour for the nobility. Few peasants were free men. Among these in Kosova, some were Albanian and Vlach, but most were Slavs. Some Albanians were also merchants in cities (Michael Lukarevic's notes on Novo Brdo in the 1430s unravels a large number of citizens with names like 'Gin', 'Tanus', 'Lecha', 'Progon' etc) or worked as clergy or even nobles. But a large segment were mobile pastoralists who weren't easy to tax, and were thus "invisible" in the medieval Serbian charters. Many medieval village names (te inhabitants of which were in the majority Slavic serfs) still survive today, such as Isniq/Isnic, Gramocel, Cabiq/Cabic, Ujemire/Dobravoda, but most pastoral settlements (katuns) don't. In Montenegro and Hercegovina, Sufflay and other scholars noted, there were several katuns with obvious Albanian names like Burmaz, Busat, Botmir, Ligatici, Rogam, Barzan, Pantales and so forth. None of these exist today. The same probably occured in Kosova. ------------------
Finally, it is interesting to note that the area which linguistically divides Bulgarians and Serbs has retained a large number of ancient toponyms, like Naissus (Nis), Lypenion (Lypjan) or Scupi (Shkupi). This is in contrast to Northern Serbia, Bosnia and the inner parts of Dalmatia, where the old names were swept aside and replaced. This suggests that the zone in question, including Kosova, resisted Slavization for a far longer period. Long enough for the newcomers to adopt the old names. This slow assimilation process, I believe, is actually demonstrated in the Serbian charters of Decan. There, we have plenty of examples where a father has an Albnaian name and his son a Serbian name or vice-versa. For example, we have a Tanush whose son is called Boljko, or a Bogdan whose son is called Progon; two brothers, one called Gon and the other called Drajko.
This suggests an assimilation process still going on, speeded and perpetuated by the Serbian Church which had a dominant role in Kosova. But it didn't happen without some impacts on the Serbs themsleves. Many consider the name Miloš, or rather the suffix -ush or -osh, to be an Albanian influence, since this form of this Slavic name (derived from proto-Slavic milu meaning "merciful") is rarely found in this period outside Western Kosova where an Albanian presence was known. This suffix is typical in our language, where names like Deme, Prek, Lul or Bel can come in the form of Demush, Prekush, Lulash or Belush. Likewise, many consider the Serbian name Uglješa to come from the Albanian Uk Lleshi (from the names Uk, meaning 'wolf', and Lleshi, a diminutive of Alexander).
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 4, 2009 15:50:18 GMT -5
The -ushi,-usho suffix has to be of italian-latin origin, as diminutive forms. In albanian passed as -ushi, in greek as -usi(s), -uso(s).They're very common suffixes in Greece, in places with past italian influence Chios(Pyrgousis,Georgousis etc), Crete(Manousos, Giannousos etc). In surnames is recorded in places and time that had never had albanian influence, like Pontos, Demetrios Alpousis(13th ce.) in Trapezous, Laggousis(1264) Kephalonia, Michael Harakousis(1407),Cyprus, etc etc {Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit}.
But I suppose this influence in that area,Kosovo, was due to the albanian language, as carrier of latinisms.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 5, 2009 13:14:57 GMT -5
Cool map. There are some who believe Bukmir to be a Vlach toponym. It wouldn't surprise me either, because during the Middle Age, Montenegro and Hercegovina was filled with Vlachs, and Vlach place-names, including the oronyms of Durmitor and Visitor, are still found there.
I also see the name Bigeze in the map. This must come from the word bigë in Albanian meaning "two-peaks" and the suffix -ëz. The same with Beškeza, possibly from bjeshkë meaning "mountain" and the suffix -ëz again, in this case meaning "little mountain". The name Štrungeza also sound suspiciously Albnaian. Kucka Kodra doesn't even need a discussion.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jul 5, 2009 21:05:36 GMT -5
It might also be due the fact that alot of our ancestors professed animal husbandry and would move from place to place (semi-nomadic). This is also why these charters might underestimate the number of Albanians and Vlachs, since people continuously on the move are harder to register and tax. This might also explain the prevalence of Slavic toponymy as well. I'm not saying a majority of the populace in Kosova during the Middle Age was non-Slavic, just that this element is underestimated because pastoral people on the move were probably not so much accounted for. Pastoral people didn't have permanent settlements during the Middle Age. There was a special word for their temporary settlements; katun. This proto-Albanian word has entered both in the Romanian and Slavic languages, and while today (in Albanian) it might have the meaning of a village, in the Middle Age it had the meaning of a pastoral settlement of tents. Now, much like city names would endure the changes of time better than villages, so would villages be more immune to change than temporary pastoral settlements. The majority of Slavs were sedentary peasants, usually landtied serfs required to do labour for the nobility. Few peasants were free men. Among these in Kosova, some were Albanian and Vlach, but most were Slavs. Some Albanians were also merchants in cities (Michael Lukarevic's notes on Novo Brdo in the 1430s unravels a large number of citizens with names like 'Gin', 'Tanus', 'Lecha', 'Progon' etc) or worked as clergy or even nobles. But a large segment were mobile pastoralists who weren't easy to tax, and were thus "invisible" in the medieval Serbian charters. Many medieval village names (te inhabitants of which were in the majority Slavic serfs) still survive today, such as Isniq/Isnic, Gramocel, Cabiq/Cabic, Ujemire/Dobravoda, but most pastoral settlements (katuns) don't. In Montenegro and Hercegovina, Sufflay and other scholars noted, there were several katuns with obvious Albanian names like Burmaz, Busat, Botmir, Ligatici, Rogam, Barzan, Pantales and so forth. None of these exist today. The same probably occured in Kosova. ------------------ Finally, it is interesting to note that the area which linguistically divides Bulgarians and Serbs has retained a large number of ancient toponyms, like Naissus (Nis), Lypenion (Lypjan) or Scupi (Shkupi). This is in contrast to Northern Serbia, Bosnia and the inner parts of Dalmatia, where the old names were swept aside and replaced. This suggests that the zone in question, including Kosova, resisted Slavization for a far longer period. Long enough for the newcomers to adopt the old names. This slow assimilation process, I believe, is actually demonstrated in the Serbian charters of Decan. There, we have plenty of examples where a father has an Albnaian name and his son a Serbian name or vice-versa. For example, we have a Tanush whose son is called Boljko, or a Bogdan whose son is called Progon; two brothers, one called Gon and the other called Drajko. This suggests an assimilation process still going on, speeded and perpetuated by the Serbian Church which had a dominant role in Kosova. But it didn't happen without some impacts on the Serbs themsleves. Many consider the name Miloš, or rather the suffix -ush or -osh, to be an Albanian influence, since this form of this Slavic name (derived from proto-Slavic milu meaning "merciful") is rarely found in this period outside Western Kosova where an Albanian presence was known. This suffix is typical in our language, where names like Deme, Prek, Lul or Bel can come in the form of Demush, Prekush, Lulash or Belush. Likewise, many consider the Serbian name Uglješa to come from the Albanian Uk Lleshi (from the names Uk, meaning 'wolf', and Lleshi, a diminutive of Alexander). Woah Donnie you are fantasizing way too much. This passage is twisted or extremely misleading at best. Some of it is just total crap. The ruling caste were Serbs/slavs & yet you’re painting us as peasants & the Albanians & Vlachs as some sort of noble nomads or something that were underestimated in charters lol. What do you think this was the industrial age where nobody had peasants or something? Of course most people were going to be peasants. And Milos is a very common slavic name even up amongst the western slavs. It's popular in the Czech republic.
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donnie
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Nike Leka i Kelmendit
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Post by donnie on Jul 6, 2009 4:23:25 GMT -5
I am not fantasizing, you're just mis-reading what I wrote. Where did I deny that the ruling caste in Kosova were Slavs, with minor exceptions? And where did I use the term "noble nomads"?
But, when speaking of commoners, most of the Slavs were indeed landtied serfs, bound to their lands and obliged to carry out labour several times a week for their lord. In the Code of Dusan, there are few references to "free men" who owned their own land. There's an even larger number of actual slaves, but the largest segment was composed by the meropah, or landtied serfs.There was also another class of townspeople, merchants and miners, many of them Saxons, and of coruse the wealthy Church which owned a great deal of estates.
On the other hand, Albanians & Vlachs had a tendency of engaging in pastoralism and moving from temporary settlement to temporary settlement, so called katuns (from the Albanian word 'tund' meaning 'to move'). I never said they were "noble", but they did have a far greater freedom than their peasant counterpart, since they were mobile and thus hard-to-tax. There's even a passage in the Code of Dusan urging these nomads to settle their disputes before the court, and not do so internally; such a call wouldn't of been made if there was no reason for it, and goes to show how some of these free-spirited people went so far to even ignore the laws of Dusan.
Today, yes, like Milos Forman, but I am talking of the Middle Age. According to some of the sources I've read, the name in question was rarely found outside Western Kosova, let alone as far north as contemporary Czech Republic. If you have information on the contrary, I will stand corrected.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jul 6, 2009 21:26:52 GMT -5
You're dancing to a different tune now. Also, you always talk about sources but never say what they are.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 7, 2009 5:50:21 GMT -5
Prove it. You haven't done so. Quote me. For example, where as you claim did I referr to my ancestors as "noble nomads"?
I have listed them all along. If you're too lazy to notice them, that's not my fault. If you're requesting scanned pages, I have no scanner. For Dusan's call on shepherds to appear before his courts, see the Code, article 183. That the term shepherd is primarily a reference to the Arvanasi (Albanians) & the Vlachs, see article 82. Reading the Code of Dusan, it is obvious that these pastoral people lived a more free life than the landtied serfs, and because of their free ways and often violent nature (pastoral mountaineers have historically proven themselves to be very martial, see your own Montenegrins) Dusan tried through various articles to prohibit their freedom, like making them pay tax for winter-grazing rights (art. 197), making them pay higher fines than regular villagers for a brawl (art. 77) and prohibiting more than a certain number of shepherds to reside in the same katun during the same time (art. 82 again) ... either to prevent internal violence or to divide them in smaller units so they didn't make any threat.
I'm sure this won't count as specifying sources either?
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