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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 5, 2009 8:36:36 GMT -5
Ljubotan can expand on this somewhat for us. Again, it sounds quite serbian ;D Lower Polog dialect From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The location of the Lower Polog dialect among the others Macedonian dialects The Lower Polog dialect (Macedonian: Долнополошки дијалект, Dolnopološki dijalekt) is a member of the western subgroup of the Northern group of dialects of the Macedonian language. It is spoken by the population in north-western Republic of Macedonia. This dialect is spoken in the city Tetovo, in the bigger villages Jegunovce, Vratnica, Tearce, Lešok, Neprošteno, Brvenica, and in all other smaller villages in this area. One of the main characteristics that this dialect has is the use of the words таќе (taḱe)- on that way and ваќе (vaḱe)- on this way. The Lower Polog dialect can be found in several books, two of which were written by Kiril Peychinovich, namely "Ogledalo" and "Uteshenia greshnim".[1] Contents [hide] * 1 Phonological characteristics * 2 Morphological characteristics * 3 Examples * 4 References [edit] Phonological characteristics There are many characteristics that are connected with this dialect but the most significant are: * the old vocal L is replaced by the groups u/ lu/ la: јаболко / jabolko > јабука / jabuka (apple), солза / solza > слуза / sluza (tear); * use of A instead of E: трева / treva > трава / trava (grass), орев / orev > орав / orav (nut); * use of ă instead of use of the yer: лаже / laže > лăже / lăže (lie); * use of U instead of the Old Church Slavonic letter ON: пат / pat > пут / put (road), внук / vnuk > унук / unuk (nephew). [edit] Morphological characteristics * use of the suffix -mo for first person plural: одиме / odime > одимо/ odimo (we are going); * palatal J before the letter E at the beginning of a word: јазик / jazik> језик / jezik (tongue), јаже > јуже (rope); * the consonant group MN is replaced with the consonant group ML: многу / mnogu > млогу / mlogu (too much); * use of the preposition U instead of the preposition VO: во град/ vo grad > у град / u grad (in city) [edit] Examples Below is written a popular folk song from Lower Polog region. The song is in Lower Polog dialect. Ogreala mesečina,lele, Ogreala mesečina, Od Soluna do Tetovo. Ne mi bilo mesečina,lele, Ne mi bilo mesečina, Tuk’mi bile tri neveste, Tri neveste Tetovčanke. Pravo odat za Tetovo,lele, Pravo odat za Tetovo, Kaj bakalot ,čičko Jakim. Dobro utro čičko Jakim ,lele, Dobro utro čičko Jakim . Dal bog dobro tri neveste , Tri neveste Tetovčanke. Da ni dadeš dram belilo ,lele, Da ni dadeš dram belilo, Dram belilo ,dram crvilo. Naši maži gurbetčii,lele, Naši maži gurbetčii, Ko’ḱe dojdat ḱeti platat. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Polog_dialect
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Post by ljubotan on Aug 5, 2009 13:41:20 GMT -5
This dialect is 95% identical to the Gorani dialect. My village, or the first 4 villages off the Kosovo border on Sar have Serbian accents. For example, we say 'dan' not 'den' and we don't say 'dojdat' we say 'dojdi'. Also, 'dojdi' is an old word from the Uzicka speech; you can look it up in Wilk. I have heard Montenegrins/Hercegovinians use it. We also use 'kujna' for kitchen, again another old word used in Montenegro and 'pendzer' for window; my girlfriends mother from Dalmatcija used as a child. Many words in Vardar are very old but were used regulary in other ex Yugo states.
The similarities between northwestern Vardar and Serbia/Montenegro are far more closer then one may think. Goes to show where the migrations into Vardar actually came from....north not east.
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Post by rusebg on Aug 5, 2009 16:39:42 GMT -5
Okay, in Bulgarian kitchen is kuhnya. How is it in Serbian? And 'pendzher' is a Turkish word, not Serbian. It is used in Bulgaria as well but we don't have the habit to claim everything as Bulgarian when it is obviously not.
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Rhezus
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DERZA STURIA TRAUS
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 5, 2009 17:47:58 GMT -5
In BG kitchen is "kuhnja", and as Ruse says the word "pendzer" is turcizm. Plenty of turkish words are still used in Makedonia, Serbia, BiH and Cerna gora. Very strange if you think over there, that these might be old slavic words.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 5, 2009 18:53:57 GMT -5
Rhezus spelt crna gora with an e (cerna gora), remember the old slav sound group *chr* has been replaced as *cer* in Bulgarian while in the Vardarian and Serbian its *cr*.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 5, 2009 19:00:21 GMT -5
"The similarities between northwestern Vardar and Serbia/Montenegro are far more closer then one may think. Goes to show where the migrations into Vardar actually came from....north not east."
That is half right, the Bulgars never brought over eastern slavs under samuils empire, the region was already inhabitated with slavs. Samuils empire attempted to Bulgarianise the vardarians and the slavs of albania. Its interesting that a large chunk of north eastern vardar had managed to preserve its original dialect like the north west!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 5, 2009 19:04:21 GMT -5
"It is used in Bulgaria as well but we don't have the habit to claim everything as Bulgarian when it is obviously not."
Yeah rubbish!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 5, 2009 19:18:41 GMT -5
Here is an example of the Torlakian Gora dialect:
Što se beli, gore Šar planina?
Da l'je snegče, il'je belo stado? Nit'je snegče, nit'je belo stado. Da je snegče, bi se rastopilo, Da je stado, bi se rasturilo. Več toj beše Milkino čadorče, Pod čadorče bolna Milka lega. Brata i gu Turci zarobili, Zarobili, paj ga obesili.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 5, 2009 23:50:16 GMT -5
That is half right, the Bulgars never brought over eastern slavs under samuils empire, the region was already inhabitated with slavs. and bulgars of kuber and thracians. those have already mixed and have become Bulgarians. All linguists agree that the fyromian slavs were slavs from the Eastern, Bulgarian group. Quote: Linguistic, archaeological and ethnographic research indicates that the process of the differentiation of the two major groups of South Slavs set in as early as the fifth to seventh century: the Serbo - Croat group (Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Montenegrins) and the group of the Bulgarian Slavs, so called because they became a part of the Bulgarian state, which was formed later. The migration of the Slavs to the South of the Danube was in fact so pervasive that Byzantium lost considerably its control over the better part of the Peninsula. The thinning numbers of the local Thracians merged completely with the Slavs. Only a few small groups of Thracians survived in the mountain regions, where they survive to this day as, nomadic stock-breeders: they are known as Walaohians (Romanized Thracians) or as Karakachans (Hellenized Thracians). The thousand-year history of the Thracians found its continuation in the birth and Bourishment of the new Bulgarian state. Individual elemerits and features of the Thracian culture left their imprint on the formation and consolidation of the Bulgarian nation. In present times the Thracian heritage is being re-discovered to become part of the 'historical memory' of the Bulgarians and is being widely publicized. www.eunet.bg/books/history/slavs.htmlWestern subgroup composed of Serbian, Slovene, Croatian and Bosnian Eastern subgroup composed of Bulgarian and Macedonian en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languagesSo your attempt at linguistics dear NOvi is laughable. Just accept you are Bulgarian. OOOOOOO. New teory. I thought those slavs were the purest Serbs and only the Exarchate after 1870 tried to "bulgarized them. Or Samuel was the first Exarchist? Lets see: Boulgaroktonos As was mentioned prior, Because of his crushing victory over Samuil, Basil II was given the title, Basil the Bulgar slayer. If it was true that Samuel was a “Macedonian king” then the Byzantinian emperor would not be named as Bulgarocton (=killer of the Bulgarians) but as Macedonocton! The Byzantines themselves, as anyone else did, regarded Samuel and his state as Bulgarian, and that is the reason why they named the new Thema they founded in his state’s lands as ‘Boulgaria’. Bitola inscription The Bitola inscription is an inscription made by order of Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Vladislav in 1015 or 1016 in connection with the fortification of the Bitola fortress. The inscription was found in 1956 in Bitola, F.Y.R.O.M and is stored at the Bitola Historical Museum. Text of the inscription (translation from Old Bulgarian): “In year 6253 (1015) since the creation of the world, this fortress, built and made by Ivan, Tsar of Bulgaria, was renewed with the help and the prayers of Our Most Holy Lady and through the intercession of her twelve supreme apostles. The fortress was built as a haven and for the salvation of the lives of the Bulgarians. The work on the fortress of Bitola commenced on the twentieth day of October and ended on the… This Tsar was Bulgarian by birth, grandson of the pious Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who was brother of Samuil, Tsar of Bulgaria, the two who routed the Greek army of Emperor Basil at Stipone where gold was taken… and this… Tsar was defeated by Emperor Basil in 6522 (1014) since the creation of the world in Klyutch (the Battle of Kleidion) and died at the end of the summer.” This is not their "original" speech. The Serbs managed for 140 years rule to serbanized the speach of fyrom but they couldnt change the fact its a Bulgarian dialect. Its still is. The Kumanovo and Prolog dialects are undoubtedly Bulgarian dialects too.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 6, 2009 0:12:39 GMT -5
^ no they are not bulgar Again for the billionth + 1: Kuber never had a Khanate in Vardar. Hugo Grothe states that as late as the ninth century Bulgarian inroads into unconquered Slav territories "were undoubtedly raids carried out by marauders, which could hardly have left any ethnic traces on these territories." Ioan, the Exarchate was the final straw of Bulgarianisation and it was massive!. Even during Emperor Samuil occupation of Vardar the Serbian tradition of SLAVA was present, as noted by Byzantine chronicler SKILICA (SKYLITZES). SKILICA observed this custom from Manuel Ivac at lake Ochrid in 1018, Manuel Ivac was the leader of the Serbian uprising at Prilep, its interesting to note that he was also one of Samuils military commander. As l told you the other day Ioan, Manuel Ivac's days were numbered when he was caught by Evstatije Dafnomil (administrator of Ochrid), on the feast of the assumption, august 28, 1018 by trickery and then blinded!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 6, 2009 0:15:44 GMT -5
Bitola inscription
The Bitola inscription is an inscription made by order of Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Vladislav in 1015 or 1016 in connection with the fortification of the Bitola fortress. The inscription was found in 1956 in Bitola, F.Y.R.O.M and is stored at the Bitola Historical Museum. Text of the inscription (translation from Old Bulgarian):
“In year 6253 (1015) since the creation of the world, this fortress, built and made by Ivan, Tsar of Bulgaria, was renewed with the help and the prayers of Our Most Holy Lady and through the intercession of her twelve supreme apostles. The fortress was built as a haven and for the salvation of the lives of the Bulgarians. The work on the fortress of Bitola commenced on the twentieth day of October and ended on the… This Tsar was Bulgarian by birth, grandson of the pious Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who was brother of Samuil, Tsar of Bulgaria, the two who routed the Greek army of Emperor Basil at Stipone where gold was taken… and this… Tsar was defeated by Emperor Basil in 6522 (1014) since the creation of the world in Klyutch (the Battle of Kleidion) and died at the end of the summer.”
I wouldn't flashing it around so loosly, you know there was a fake that was founded in a similar fashion!....lmao.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 6, 2009 0:21:36 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into Polog, gora or Kumanovski dialects because they are clearly serbian. But im fascinated with the central vardarian dialect which has a clearly serbian morphology, etymology etc....the Bulgarian feature which all these scientists seem to highlight so much is the article, and yes thats a bulgarian feature.....but then again its a relic from an old illyro-thracian zone.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Aug 6, 2009 0:22:06 GMT -5
Novi, I'm starting to agree with Ioan. I think Torlaks are just random slavs who did not initially identify with anyone in particular. In reality they have more in common with Bulgarian slavs but through political affiliation became Serbs. Most of you probably didn't have a specific consciousness either way to begin with so they can't really be claimed as pure Bulgarians (not that there's much of a thing) but in reality you do have more in common with Bulgarians. I know Torlaks will never admit that. I know a few Serbs from Pirot & they often get riled up & called Bulgarians by other Serbs and they hate it. Ioan, even if they are ostracised by other Serbs they still don't want to be Bulgarians so what does that tell you.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 6, 2009 0:41:48 GMT -5
^ Arsenije, most serbs don't know the historical past. They view this old serbian dialect as foreign and for the Bulgars who have a desire to further expand their territory can't wait to play on our weaknesses. Arsenije, the Torlaks and Shopi people were never Bulgarian to begin with. Why do you think the Shopi of western bulgaria for example celebrate Vidovden (Vidovdan) if they were never serbs? or that when the restored patriachate of Pech in 15th/16th century had the todays western bulgars under their command (Sofia, Vidin, Samokov, Kyustendil etc....).
Its kind of sad Arsenije that some serbs refer to us kosovo serbs as siptari just because we are poorer than the rest. The major problem with serbs is they have an arrogance complex, hence why the country is shrinking before our eyes......do you agree?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 1:17:48 GMT -5
Novi, I'm starting to agree with Ioan. I think Torlaks are just random slavs who did not initially identify with anyone in particular. In reality they have more in common with Bulgarian slavs but through political affiliation became Serbs. Most of you probably didn't have a specific consciousness either way to begin with so they can't really be claimed as pure Bulgarians (not that there's much of a thing) but in reality you do have more in common with Bulgarians. I know Torlaks will never admit that. I know a few Serbs from Pirot & they often get riled up & called Bulgarians by other Serbs and they hate it. Ioan, even if they are ostracised by other Serbs they still don't want to be Bulgarians so what does that tell you. Thank you for this post. I agree with what you said. I agree today Novi doesnt want to be Bulgarian. I accept it. I am against falsifying of fyrom history, that he so desperately tries to do.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 1:26:07 GMT -5
^ Arsenije, most serbs don't know the historical past. They view this old serbian dialect as foreign and for the Bulgars who have a desire to further expand their territory can't wait to play on our weaknesses. Arsenije, the Torlaks and Shopi people were never Bulgarian to begin with. Why do you think the Shopi of western bulgaria for example celebrate Vidovden (Vidovdan) if they were never serbs? or that when the restored patriachate of Pech in 15th/16th century had the todays western bulgars under their command (Sofia, Vidin, Samokov, Kyustendil etc....). Its kind of sad Arsenije that some serbs refer to us kosovo serbs as siptari just because we are poorer than the rest. The major problem with serbs is they have an arrogance complex, hence why the country is shrinking before our eyes......do you agree? Of course he doesnt. Any reasonable thinking man would agree that its not true.
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Post by rusebg on Aug 6, 2009 4:12:14 GMT -5
Now let me put this song into modern standard Bulgarian:
Ogreala meseèina,lele, Ogreala meseèina, Od Soluna do Tetovo.
Ogreyala mesechina, lele, Ogreyala mesechina Ot Solun do Tetovo.
Ne mi bilo meseèina,lele, Ne mi bilo meseèina, Tuk’mi bile tri neveste, Tri neveste Tetovèanke.
Ne mi bilo mesechina, lele, Ne mi bilo mesechina Tuk mi byaha tri nevesti, Tri nevesti tetovchanki.
Pravo odat za Tetovo,lele, Pravo odat za Tetovo, Kaj bakalot ,èièko Jakim.
Pravo hodyat za Tetovo, lele Pravo hodyat za Tetovo, Pri bakalina, chichko Yakim.
Dobro utro èièko Jakim ,lele, Dobro utro èièko Jakim . Dal bog dobro tri neveste , Tri neveste Tetovèanke.
Dobro utro, chichko Yakime, lele, Dobro utro, chichko Yakime, Dal Bog dobro, tri nevesti, Tri nevesti tetovchanki.
etc. Not a big difference, what do say, Novi?
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Post by srbobran on Aug 6, 2009 13:46:32 GMT -5
Novi, tell me more about this Manuel Ivac and his uprising in Prilep, it seems interesting (sources in Serbian are fine).
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 6, 2009 19:56:36 GMT -5
Serbs never falsified history of vardar Ioan, its the Bulgars and their stone inscriptions that made the world suspicious of them. Go on, tell the readers here, of a fake stone inscription, that was found in a similar fashion to the Bitola inscription and later rejected by Sofia!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 6, 2009 20:22:16 GMT -5
"Novi, tell me more about this Manuel Ivac and his uprising in Prilep, it seems interesting (sources in Serbian are fine)."
Its kind of not surprising that people arn't taking my information seriously, l quote from sources which are not mainstream that disprove all the crap thats being taught from sources like the internet and 20th + 21st century sources.
I'll take a chunk out of a serbian source since your asking, Bozhidar A. Prokich, "Vojvoda Ivac", Bratstvo drushtva svetoga Save, Vol.IX and X, 1902, p.5:
"There is one more striking difference between the two: while Bulgaria despite her power and greatness, left no profound traces in the consciousness of the Macedonian Slavs, the same cannot be said of Samuil's state. The subsequent desire of the people that it should be revided found expression in a series of rebellions, of which not one was oriented toward the old Bulgaria: of these uprisings, the most interesting are those led by Petar Deljan, the soldier Tihomir (in the region of Durazzo), Manuel Ivac (near Prilep) and Djordje Vojteh.
Vojteh's uprising was Serbian in orientation. Since 1035, a new Serbian state had begun to form at Zeta, and the rebel delegation requested Mihailo, King of Zeta, to help them and give them his son Bodin to lead the revolt."
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