Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Aug 26, 2009 9:11:08 GMT -5
I remember bacilmacedon claiming that we didn't identify ourselves as Macedonians until the fall of Jugoslavia (even though I told him that even under Jugoslavia, we were still Macedonians) but here is some proof that what he said was false. Population extracts from a census in the 1920's in Pennsylvania (USA). Look at the names, Ljubica, Kiro, Vesela, Blaga, Ordan, etc. Back in Macedonia, they were forced to call themselves Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs but in a democratic USA, they identified as what they have always done so. www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/us_census_1920-01.jpegwww.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/us_census_1920-03.jpegwww.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/us_census_1920-04.jpegwww.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/us_census_1920-08.jpegwww.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/us_census_1920-15.jpeg
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 26, 2009 21:50:35 GMT -5
You are wiser then this nonsense Nikola, use the internets to help your people over there now that you’re living in a free country called Australia. Educate your self to the truth, break away from myths created by gone / now spent communists… See us Greeks as the owners to an identity you are falsely using.
The term “Macedonian” was used as a geographical marker by the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians or who ever lived in the ancient Greek Macedonian region called “Macedonia” as proven many times by me to you, nothing too difficult to understand really.
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Post by macmako on Aug 26, 2009 23:30:02 GMT -5
What is not difficult to understand is that there were, are, and will always be people that were not, are not and will not be Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian and Serbian that are called Macedonians.
Non-Macedonians do not need to tell Macedonians who they are. They know already and need no one's help.
So guess what you can do, Archi?
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 0:51:29 GMT -5
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 0:53:43 GMT -5
ANd in 1877, according to a map (British E.Stanford 1877) the area of Macedonia was mainly inhabited by Greeks, and in smaller amounts, Albanians, Turks, Vlahs, Serbs, Bulgarians.
In 1904 the Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha for Thessaloniki, Monastiri, Scopje doesn't report any "Macedonian" nation.
In 1906 the Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha for the area of Macedonia doesn't report any "Macedonian" nation.
In 1926 the League of the Nations doesn't report any "Macedonian" nation in Southern Macedonia.
Suddenly, in 1948, the encyclopaedia Britannica publishes a census that has discovereded a hidden, for any previous census, "Macedonian" nationality (about 66.1% of the total population in FYROM).
Anyway, if the last record is considered reliable then we cannot assume anything else than, that the nation of the so called "Macedonians" was formed suddenly and very recently, sometime between 1926-1948! Now isn't that amazing, or, what? A nation, that young, wishes to get linked to Alexander the Great (who died in 323BC) by identifying itself with an ancient Greek name?
If such a nation ever existed, then there should be at least a 10% of "Macedonians" in every census (at least in the turkish census), shouldn't there…
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Aug 27, 2009 2:47:36 GMT -5
Arxilleas, if as you say: "Anyway, if the last record is considered reliable then we cannot assume anything else than, that the nation of the so called "Macedonians" was formed suddenly and very recently, sometime between 1926-1948"
then it wasn't the communists which created the name.
Also, "Suddenly, in 1948, the encyclopaedia Britannica publishes a census that has discovereded a hidden, for any previous census, "Macedonian" nationality (about 66.1% of the total population in FYROM)."
When the Brits, suddenly "discover", it should be better perceived as suddenly .... "CREATE".
Blame them, not the slavs.
To put it in plain terms,
SLAV = rather big probability of being GOOD and FRIENDLY to Greece and all we once used to represent. (Antiquity, Byzantium, etc...)
They also, KEPT and PRESERVED orthodoxy when we betrayed it. (just look at our gay western religious calendar, and you will see ...)
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 2:54:57 GMT -5
Oh ! ok all knowing Pyrros
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Aug 27, 2009 7:20:46 GMT -5
Arxileas, your articles state what was technically official back then. My grandparents were forced to identify as Serbs and had to change their name so it ended with "....kovic" as opposed to how it now ends with "....kovski".
The census list I posted shows that despite what the ruling Balkan countries forced onto the people, they still identified as Macedonians amongst themselves. I'm sorry but you can't deny that.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 7:42:15 GMT -5
Slav Macedonian = Slav from the geographical region of Macedonia.
Bulgarian Macedonian = Bulgarian from the geographical region of Macedonia.
Greek Macedonian = Greek from the geographical region of Macedonian.
Fyrom want's to monopolies this name for sole purpose and deny the others. See who is being unreasonable now and provocative to thy neighbors...
What's wrong with being a Slav or a Bulgarian ? Why are you so ashamed of it ?
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 7:43:31 GMT -5
Mind you, you have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians that we can be certain of.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Aug 27, 2009 7:48:46 GMT -5
I think you're missing the point of this thread. And I've proven that point. If you want to argue about who is Macedonian and etc, then argue it somewhere else.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 7:50:49 GMT -5
I think you're missing the point of this thread. And I've proven that point. If you want to argue about who is Macedonian and etc, then argue it somewhere else. Which one are; Slav Macedonian = Slav from the geographical region of Macedonia. Bulgarian Macedonian = Bulgarian from the geographical region of Macedonia. Greek Macedonian = Greek from the geographical region of Macedonian.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Aug 27, 2009 7:56:14 GMT -5
Which one are; Slav Macedonian = Slav from the geographical region of Macedonia. Bulgarian Macedonian = Bulgarian from the geographical region of Macedonia. Greek Macedonian = Greek from the geographical region of Macedonian. All are Macedonian. Why are you seperating them into seperate groups?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 27, 2009 8:00:57 GMT -5
Slav Macedonian = Slav from the geographical region of Macedonia. Bulgarian Macedonian = Bulgarian from the geographical region of Macedonia. I do not think there is difference between those two ethnicities.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 8:01:30 GMT -5
All are Macedonian. Why are you seperating them into seperate groups? Greek, Slav and Bulgarian are ethnicities "Macedonian" isn't one it's a geographical region...
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 8:06:44 GMT -5
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Post by L0gjICK on Aug 27, 2009 8:09:37 GMT -5
Why are Greeks so bent over this issue? If Greek wanted to call themselves Macedonia, they should of done so.
Besides Greeks of today are nothing but Asian Mongols that have mixed with Turks, Slavs, Albanians and Vllachs. They are not even close to being the same as those people of Ancient Greece. The Greeks however can make their claims because unlike the "Macedonians," they have achieved their independence much earlier and they do not speak a Slavic tongue. Other then that, both have as much claim to their respective ancient Cultures.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 27, 2009 8:12:54 GMT -5
I do not think there is difference between those two ethnicities. From what evidence I have seen I tend to see them as a mixture of both .
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Aug 27, 2009 8:36:10 GMT -5
Which one are; Slav Macedonian = Slav from the geographical region of Macedonia. Bulgarian Macedonian = Bulgarian from the geographical region of Macedonia. Greek Macedonian = Greek from the geographical region of Macedonian. All are Macedonian. Why are you seperating them into seperate groups? Nikola, what you say could hold some water back in pre-1920. After the Minor Asian disaster (catastrophe) things changed. Macedonia, (well the greek part) was FILLED with pontians and minor asians which of course were as ancient greek as it gets. Pontians still speak and dance in the exact same fashion as ancient Lakonians, (from where they stem). Now Greek macedonia has more greeks than FYROM has slavs. If a referendum was made in the whole UNION of countries supposed to be as parts of macedonia, most probably it could have a greek majority. Also, remember that the very roots of ancient macedonians were in the greek part. Taking all into account, and mostly the situation post-1920, things got very complicated. For me, the only solution is a .... 3rd yugoslavia, frankly i cant see any other than that. A greater bulgaria is out of the question, for the obvious reasons. What was done in greek makedonia, is very similar to what was done to Vojvodina. Now Vojvodina is getting more serb, for the simple fact, that many Kosovo Serbs and especially Bosnian Serbs moved there.... You cant have a genocide on a nation and at the same time want all of its land. Its just unrealistic. So happened with Greek makedonia. We lost Smyrna, Efesos, etc... all greeks were forcibly removed from there, and most of them ended up in Macedonia. Of course Macedonia had a strong greek element before that. But its just funking unfair for a country to lose it all... We must find some balance. The ex-YU makedonians (or from northern makedonia) should try and take the approach of dialog and understanding, and of course the same must happen with the greek side as well.
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Post by L0gjICK on Aug 27, 2009 8:43:38 GMT -5
Honestly I'm sick of Greece and their stance in Maceondia. Fck off! Give the Western Part to Albania (including Monastir), Eastern Part to Bulgaria and some of the North to Serbia, and call it even. Then Greeks can stop bitching about this name issue.
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