Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 3:41:26 GMT -5
Demo, Serbian and Macedonian are mutually intelligible, so, i guess its no problem, just consider Serbian as a version of .... non-fluent Macedonian
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Post by macmako on Oct 5, 2009 7:18:06 GMT -5
Demo, Serbian and Macedonian are mutually intelligible, so, i guess its no problem, just consider Serbian as a version of .... non-fluent Macedonian Macedonian and Serbian have their similarities, but more so with Macedonian and Bulgarian. It is just the nature of South Slavic languages.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 7:47:18 GMT -5
Demo, Serbian and Macedonian are mutually intelligible, so, i guess its no problem, just consider Serbian as a version of .... non-fluent Macedonian Macedonian and Serbian have their similarities, but more so with Macedonian and Bulgarian. It is just the nature of South Slavic languages. Official Macedonian (Veles) most probably yes, but what about Tetovo/Skoplje/etc...?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 5, 2009 11:33:06 GMT -5
There's an interesting theory as to how the linguistic division between Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian came to be. In the territory that is modern day Kosova, Southern Serbia, Northern Macedonia and Northwestern Bulgaria you have a number of old toponyms that predate Slavic arrival, including Nis, Lypjan, Skopje, Stip, Sar etc. This contrasts with Northern Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and the Dalmatian hinterland where the old toponyms were swept aside by the Slavic tide. This suggests, possibly, the presence of a non-Slavic element (Vlachs?) in the aforementioned territory that lingered on and isolated the two groups from each other for a significant time, which gave rise to the Bulgarian-Serbian linguistic divide, much like the Hungarians divided the southern Slavs from the ancestors of modern day Slovaks and Czechs.
This would mean that Macedonia falls on the southern side of this divide and whatever "Serbian" characteristics there are, they are recent introductions and loans ...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 13:19:05 GMT -5
Nis used to be Naissos, just like in Adriatic - Faros became Hvar - Melita became Mlet (Mlijet) - Korkyra became Korcula - Kirki (the famous female seducer of Odyseus) became Krk
What i see is that simply the old GREEK toponyms were slavicized, either in Old Serbia or in Dalmatia.
Also i find the the parallelism with the hungarians out of target, since the hungarians were not slav speakers, whereas your supposed Vlahs were slav speakers, without a state, and thus not able to impose any linguistic or other between Serbs and Bulgarians.
"This would mean that Macedonia falls on the southern side of this divide and whatever "Serbian" characteristics there are, they are recent introductions and loans ... "
Like the use of declensions pre-1800? yeah right!
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 5, 2009 13:36:05 GMT -5
I said the Dalmatian hinterland, not the coast and the islands. Look up hinterland in the dictionary. The coast is a different story; there, a local Romanized element survived for quite some time, enough for old toponyms to pass on and be adopted by the Slav invaders (unlike in the inner parts where they were swept aside). They spoke the extinct Dalmatian language whose last speaker died in the 19th century.
LOL, since when is the Vlach speech a Slavic one? The Vlachs are Romanized locals and speak a Romance language, one of the daughters of Latin and thus related to Spanish, French, Italian etc, not Serbian, Bulgarian or Russian. Understand? And they didn't have to form a state to create a barrier between the two Slavic groups ... simply being there amd physically separating the two groups sufficed. The region in question was also home to an impressive number of fortresses erected by Justinian and other emperors and was suited for resistance ... it was eventually overrided, but could've existed for a period that was enough for a linguistic divergence to emerge.
Declensions existed in Bulgaria too, since it is a Slavic language afterall. Perhaps some dialects were more conservative in this regard and didn't lose all of the declensions at the same pace ... some Albanian dialects use the locative case which most have lost, including the standard language.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 15:17:39 GMT -5
Insult edited outwe all have to live with, in these forums... Your essay contain one hole/flaw/inconsistency every half a word. first you pose the question (vlahs???) and later you came with a lecture on Vlahs. Insult edited outI was born in Ioannina, close to the capital of Greek Vlahs, (Metsovo) Insult edited outyou think i dont know how Vlah sounds like? You expressed a comparison (among the many other of yours) between the Hungarians, (which speak a non-slavic language) and the supposed Vlahs of your theory which, who at least today are 100% A LIVING SLAVIC population, and i doubt that there are indications that they ever existed with another name. Daorsi en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorsi in Bosnia remained, and no slavic "tide" changed it, and surprise its not dalmatia. Talking about Northern Serbia, Insult edited outen.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_and_Latin_place_names_in_SerbiaDo Semendria=Smederevo and Sirmium=Srem (Srijem) remind of something Insult edited out? I fail to see why being hinterland or not, why being in the south or in the north plays any difference. And since you want to prove something about Macedonia, Insult edited out in the case of Croatia/Bosnia/Northern Serbia please write down to us ALL CITIES/regions/countries which you would want to exclude from your Insult edited out theory. Then arbitrarily, you decided that this vlah "barrier" existed, and that south of it are todays Macedonia. Insult edited outPS Insult edited out Bulgarians are "proud" of their lack of declensions, and they portray this as a "trademark" of their language, plus, NO ONE, here could come with a date of when those declensions were lost, so you gotta do some homework with your bulgarian buddies on this issue, before you come back with more. PS2 Insult edited outPS3, if you had used normal language answering to me, , i would have responded more gently. SORRY
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 15:40:22 GMT -5
Insult edited out
Lets remember that the Insult edited out is trying to find out which conditions held between Serbs and Bulgarians in order for two distinct languages to be formed. Apart from the fact that the Insult edited out completely ignores the role of organized states, ministries of education, schools, committees which all pose an heavy impact on the formation of any language, lets ask "HOW KAJKAVIAN, CHAKAVIAN and STOKAVIAN were formed"? WHICH WAS THE BARRIER BETWEEN THEM? Or Kajkavian and Slovenian? Which was the barrier between them?
PS i bet the Insult edited out will respond: With bla bla and because of bla bla this bla bla is a different bla bla.
PS2 In short i am asking the Insult edited out to state IN WHICH CASES DOES A BARRIER NEED TO BE PRESENT BETWEEN TWO related nations IN ORDER FOR two distinct languages to be formed. Once he proves that at least Serbian-Bulgarian is a pair which belongs to the aforementioned class of languages that need to have a barrier, then we will search for the barrier.
And then, we will look for any possible Vlah theories, which would explain such a barrier.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 5, 2009 16:26:19 GMT -5
Gyros, it seems you dont even know what we're talking of here, like below;
I am speaking of toponyms that survived -- the Daorsi were an Illyrian tribe and their name did not survive/pass on! The same with your list. If anything, with the sole exception of Srem/Srijem=Semendria, you proved my point, i.e. that local toponymy did not survive but were fully replaced with new Slavic names, like Prokuplje which replaced Hammeum, or Golubac which replaced Cuppae and so on.
It doesn't matter, you said it was a Slavic language which means you know shyt. With this stupid comment you've fully discredited yourself single-handedly. It proves that everything you have said and say are the words of a somebody who knows nothing.
Amazing ... you write in capital letters in an attempt to make yourself understood, I presume, yet you're still making no sense ... nobody is speaking of today, I am speaking of 600 AD, when all Vlachs spoke Vulgar Latin or a Latin-derived local language ... understand now?
I dont understand what this even means ... what exactly is your point? Are you suggesting Bulgarian never had declensions ... that declensions are a uniquely Serbo-Croatian feature?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 5, 2009 16:35:02 GMT -5
The theory I presented, which is not mine at all but that of historians and linguists, aims to explain the divergence of Bulgarian from Serbo-Croatian and is, or perhaps you didn't catch that, a theory, a very plausible one at that. It doesn't aim to explain other phenomena within the Slavic speaking world, it aims to explain Bulgaria's unique development as a sole Slavic language to eventually lose its case system and develop an analytical character as opposed to the traditional synthetic languages of the Slavic linguistic family tree.
PS To any of the moderators, I'd appreciate if the remarks of Gyros in regards to my family were edited out -- there's no place for such undeserved disrespect and low attacks.
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Post by macmako on Oct 5, 2009 18:21:11 GMT -5
Pyrros, I will not edit insults from your posts any longer. There are too many. I will simply move it to its logical forum, and delete the entire post. Clean it up, Pyrros
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 5, 2009 19:59:26 GMT -5
^ o.k then, it seems that Bulgarian can't be used here since there is no bulgarian minority in vardar.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 5, 2009 23:25:28 GMT -5
Yes Novi use only SIMPLE BULGARIAN. OOOOOOOOps I forgot you speak neither Simple Bulgarian, nor Serbian. Well you dont have a problem: you can use the only language you know anything about: English. Donnie, you are very clever guy, I seen what you ve written in other posts, but I m not sure I get your idea: are you saying that where the Bulgarians live, the old toponyms survived, because the slavs encountered preslavic (probably romanised Thracian) people and got mixed with them and thus the preslavic elements of Bulgarian came into existance? Seems logical indeed.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 0:16:31 GMT -5
Donnie, you are very clever guy Donnie might seem clever to you, but for anyone with a Univ degree in natural/technical Sciences not so. In every counter example against any of his "theorems" he comes with an exception! Dalmatian coastline, then Smederevo, Then Daorsi, actually, the only non-exceptions for him is exactly the very target that he wants to prove. Is that for you ... clever? ;D ;D I would be interested to know Donnie's educational background/profession. I bet, he is not a natural Scientist nor an Engineer. Unfortunately people like him exist everywhere and have a loud vacant mouth. PS Actually i think there is chance for Donnie. He could present a map with the density of toponyms all over the balkans which stem directly from Greek or Latin ancient cities. But wait, there is another problem, in order to make such a map, a minimal amount of basic maths are needed ;D But then again, what can we expect from the guy who denied this map of SERB toponyms in Albania? www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_slavicnames2.gif
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 6, 2009 6:32:45 GMT -5
Gyros wrote
I wasn't complaining about your insults towards me, but those directed towards my mother. That just shows what a lowlife you are and that you have no dignity whatsoever.
Is that why you didnt/couldnt downsize that picture so one doesn't have to scroll sideways? LOL.
When did I deny/support this map?
The rest I will not even counter, because you're obviously to mentally disturbed to carry on a normal debate with real arguments ... i dont appreciate you twisting things around to prove smth false. You're all over the place, and everyone with the slightest knowledge in history is laughing at you.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 8:06:10 GMT -5
Pokemon, i had no intention to deal with you in the first place, i was not the one who started with the "illiterate weasels" and the "dimwits", remember? You are the most blatant hypocrite of the forums, and thats where actually your expertise ends. "I wasn't complaining about your insults towards me, but those directed towards my mother. That just shows what a lowlife you are and that you have no dignity whatsoever. " I dont give a damn about what you complained, fact is, that we both used similar terminology (WHICH YOU STARTED) and only my posts (as an non-albanian i guess) were deleted/edited. Now about your BS regarding image processing, digital signals, and the like, all i have to say is that i wrote my first digital image processing program in SunOS back in 1987, then sent my first Internet email in 1988, using the classic Unix (c) mail (1) command.... at a time when in your albanimalia i guess you were living in the caves together with your goats... Anyways, i just didn't feel i wanna resize and then host the pic by myself, you dimwit wanna apologize for it ;D Besides the toponyms are better seen this way, my dear pokemon. Free hint: Learn to use the <ENTER> key in order for your (stupid) text to be visible. ;D ;D
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 6, 2009 8:52:03 GMT -5
The tradition of namecalling was started by you. But that is besides the point, I dont get insulted by you when you verbally attack me personally. But involving family members is different, and I did not offend any of your family members.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 9:07:48 GMT -5
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 6, 2009 9:10:25 GMT -5
I did prove that alot of those toponyms arent slavic. But I didn't deny them in their entirety, obviously there is a presence of Slavic toponyms ... just that you guys like to exaggerate it,.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 8, 2009 12:59:42 GMT -5
What else it could be? Thracians do mixed with them. There's an etymological analysis of more than 60 Thracian toponyms, hydronyms and oronyms. Just an example, the hydronimes origin:
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