Heh, Nikola, first of all the “historyofmacedonia.org” site is a fairy tale. No independent scholar supports the views it publishes.
Second of all, you are right that the Macedonian identity existed before the Serbs occupied Macedonia, however, it only existed as a regional identity NOT an ethnic one. The regional Macedonian identity only became an ethnic identity during Yugoslavia, not before that.
Macedono-Bulgarians were persecuted for identifying as Bulgarians by both Serbs and Greeks. So their choices were to either declare themselves as Serbs, Greeks, or ‘Macedonians’. Using the regional identity of being Macedonian helped them avoid the anti-Bulgarian initiatives, at least partly.
Ruse, I’ve heard that the when you flush a toilet in Australia the water turns the in the other direction. May be the forces behind that phenomena have something to do with it. But then again, in the case of Captain Kangaroo exclusively, I think the reason for his retardation is that he was dropped on his head as a baby.
ROFL!
So true
If you read your own, or rather, our shared history you will find that the Macedonian identity gradually shifted from a regional one to an ethnic one. You should also know that when some immigrants from Macedonia came to the US and Canada, they identified as Bulgarians and were looked upon as some sort of spies of Russia, hence many chose to use the regional Macedonian identity. I’ve posted it before, but why don’t you do a research on Macedonian churches in Canada. All Macedonian churches that were built in Toronto, Canada prior to 1945 are known as Macedono-Bulgarian churches. And the people who built them, were proud Bulgarians mainly from Aegean Macedonia; hence the church designation of Macedono-Bulgarian. I have never hear, seen, or read about any Macedono-Serbian church being founded before the formation of Yugoslavia. Hell, I’m not even sure if any such churches were founded even during Yugoslavia. Do a quick Google search on ‘Macedonians in Canada’ or something of the sort.
What I’ve said is not an argument, but rather a statement that is supported by practically all independent scholars. If you choose not to agree with it, that’s your own choice. However, if you base your Macedonian history knowledge on what’s published on “historyofmacedonia.org”, then you really have no accurate knowledge of your own history. Or if you choose to base your knowledge on the propaganda that people like Captain Kangaroo are posting, well then you’d be Serbian.. it would be quite pathetic if you agree with this crap though, because it’s precisely this sort of pro-Serbian propaganda that your forefathers died for.
When you respond, try to get your whole story straight. If you pick up a book, read the whole thing. Don’t COPY/PASTE segments as Captain Kangaroo does, as his quotes are usually out of context.
Realistically we are not arguing anything; we are just making you aware of what practically all independent scholars think and have thought on the subject.
The fact that you have only read a narrow and distorted interpretation of history is your own fault. I bet you didn’t even know these sources existed until they were posted on this forum. Oh and BTW, you might also want to start by reading the full history behind Krste Misirkov; who was a proud Bulgarian at one point and a proud Macedonian at another. And even when he was a proud Macedonia, he still questioned whether a separate Macedonian nation would have a credible existence since your forefathers proudly identified as Bulgarians.
If you do make the effort to read Krste Misirkov’s full works instead of focusing only on the segments that the pro-Serbian, the Yugoslav, and the current Macedonian governments have emphasized/published you will find that things are much different than they are presented on ‘historyofmacedonia.org’.
You speak of arguing a point, or discussing a topic.. yet you are unfamiliar with more than half of the facts. A proper discussion would require both parties to be familiar with each other’s view points, and believe me, I’ve read the materials posted on ‘historyofmacedonia.org’ and they are filled with self contradictions.
Yup, a Macedonian identification was a regional-geographic identification, not an ethnic one. It only became an ethnic designation during Yugoslavia.
This is very true. Especially the things coming from Captain Kangaroo.. he’s not worthy of any sort of discussion. All he does is randomly COPY/PASTES text out of context, that usually is self contradictory and out of place. The rest of the time, he posts texts that are based on biased Serbian sources that come from the University of Belgrade, or quote an ex-Serb Prime Minister. Talk about biased propaganda.
Yet another ignorant statement from Captain Kangaroo.. the IMRO was a local Macedonian organization. The founders and leaders of this organization widely identified as Macedono-Bulgarians.
Dear Captain Kangaroo, you are rather stupid.. but we already know that. Read through the sources, some pre-date the foundation of the Bulgarian Exarchate. Others show that the Bulgarian Exarchate even encouraged Macedonian villages to accept the Greek Patriarchate in order to avoid persecution. But you are too stupid to read through them, either that or you are scared to read them because they clearly show that the things you base your beliefs on are propaganda.
Correction. We make you aware of a variety of different non-Bulgarian, independent sources, mostly western, that have reached the same conclusion; that Macedonians identified as Bulgarians in the past. The Serbs don’t even factor into the equation.
What contradicting Bulgars!? All the sources I’ve posted are not even Eastern European, let alone Bulgarian. The sources are Western European or American. How can the Bulgars be contradicting themselves if the sources are not Bulgarians!? Hah, Captain Kangaroo and his idiot remarks, he never fails to amuse and entertain. Poor ol’ confused, illiterate retard.
ROFL!
Again with Cohen? Hahhahahhaha that’s all you got eh? Nothing else. As I’ve mentioned before, Cohen is only one source.. and coincidentally all other sources who have published books way before him, have reached the same conclusions about the anti-Bulgarian campaigns that the Serbs initiated in Macedonia.
Nikola, during communism Russia wanted Bulgaria to join Yugoslavia in order to form a communist super state in the Balkans. However, Tito had a condition on having Bulgaria join Yugoslavia into 3 different states; Macedonia, Thrace, and Moesia. He also required Bulgaria to attach Pirin Macedonia to Vardar Macedonia and to refer to the Bulgarians from Macedonia as Macedonians on an ethnic basis. The Bulgarian politicians, as most communists, were only concerned about the well being of the ‘communist’ state and nothing else. So the Bulgarian politicians started changing the passports of Bulgarians in Pirin to say that they are Macedonians and not Bulgarians; all this was done to satisfy Tito’s demand and to have Bulgaria integrated into Yugoslavia. The demand that Bulgaria had, was if this union were to occur, that capital would be Sofia. Either way, it became evident that this Balkan communist state wouldn’t happen, so Bulgaria gave up on the Macedonism politics. However, as you mentioned, there are still some remnants in Bulgaria who prefer to identify as Macedonians ethnically rather than Bulgarians. This was the fault of the communist politicians, and it’s understandable that the Bulgarians in Pirin who identify as Macedonians felt betrayed by their country.
Regarding Aegean Macedonia, these Macedonians were influenced by the general notions inspired by the Macedonism propaganda.
If you remain objective, and search for sources that cover all perspectives rather than the narrow minded Balkan propaganda, you’ll be able to draw your own conclusions. Search for non-Bulgarian, non-Macedonian, non-Serbian, non-Greek sources. Read 5-10 books or so and things will start adding up.
That’s why we have independent sources that have recorded what has been the case in the region during those years. Just because the Yugoslav or even the communist Bulgarian governments have avoided these sources, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. How can you get a well rounded knowledge of history if you only view regional sources, and a select few non regional sources that are based on sources from the University of Belgrade for example?
In order to get closer to the truth, you need to address non-Bulgarian, non-Macedonian, non-Serbian, non-Yugoslav, non-Greek sources.
Toponyms alone are not a good thing to base your conclusions on. The fact that the toponyms are the same only means that the areas have been continuously inhabited, but not necessarily by the same populations.
Macedonism was a tool that the Serbs used only after they became aware that assimilating the Macedonians into becoming Serbs wouldn’t happen.
Ioan, Serbs tried to assimilate them, but when they realized that this task would be impossible to complete.. the next best thing was to try and de-Bulgarize the region. Serbia was afraid of Bulgaria alone, let alone if Bulgaria and Macedonia were on the same side. Back then, a union of Macedonia and Bulgaria, even in the form of a federative state, would mean that Serbia and Greece, and possibly even Romanian would be the underdogs in the region. Thousands of Macedonians died for Bulgaria and thousands of Bulgarians died for Macedonia. Hell, even when Bulgaria recognized Macedonia in 1991 under its constitutional name (btw Bulgaria was the first country to do so), Bulgaria declared to both Serbia and Greece that if they were to attempt and oppose the independence of Macedonia, Bulgaria would take it as an attack on Bulgaria and would defend the independent Macedonian state. In a similar way, the founders of the IMRO only saw two possibly futures for Macedonia; 1. A Macedonia united with Bulgaria, or 2. A Macedonia independent from the Ottomans, in the hopes of having it join Bulgaria at some point in the future. It would be good if all Macedonians acquaint themselves with the diaries of the founding members of the IMRO.
Captain Kangaroo doesn’t have the brain capacity to feed himself, let alone discuss history. His skills only go as far as COPY/PASTING out of context propaganda. I don’ t expect any showing of intellect from him.
The past in my opinion should be remembered, as it’s the purposeful misinterpretation of history that has lead to degrade relations between Macedonia and most of it’s neighbors.
Great job there little buddy!
Now why don’t you address the sources that have been published decades before the foundation of the Bulgarian Exarchate, and don’t give me that nonsense with Venelin as the sources I’m talking about are Western.
"Why are you ashamed to call yourself Bulgarian?" is the first line in Paisi’s book. Meaning that the Bulgarian identify was troubled even since his time, however, initially it was the Greeks that tried to assimilate Macedono-Bulgarians and later on the Serbs joined the ‘festivities’.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisij_Hilendarski