ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Jan 7, 2010 13:26:32 GMT -5
This book was published in London, more than half a century before the Bulgarian Exarchate was established.
Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly . by F.C.H.L. Pouqueville (London: Printed for Sir Richard Phillips and Co, 1820)
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 7, 2010 22:36:54 GMT -5
Asen, l know what the answer is and before l do give it, l want you and some other readers to ponder for a moment why did the Bulgars have to go through all that trouble to create an Exarchate 50 years later when they were described by Pouqueville as Bulgars?
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 8, 2010 0:40:28 GMT -5
Because it was natinal evolution. We were religious back then, we wanted the church deal to be executed in bulgarian, we wanted high positions for the ethnic bulgarians in the church and to stop hellenization of the bulgarians executed via the patriarchate.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jan 8, 2010 0:55:43 GMT -5
Because if you belonged to the Greek Patriachate, you were considered an ethnic Greek. You discuss Paisij Hilindarski, but you know very little about the topic, as usual. He speaks of that exact Hellenization process of Bulgarians and Macedono-Bulgarians that Ioan mentioned above.
This is the correct answer to Captain Kangaroo's question, but I'm sure his one brain cell will have trouble comprehending it.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 8, 2010 6:18:45 GMT -5
Russians did the wrong thing by giving the idea of a Bulgarian Exarchia...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 8, 2010 20:00:16 GMT -5
This is from the southern Albanian region of Korca... we live next to 'Macedonians', they are the only Slav group. However in this quote:
Αλβανοί, Βλάχοι, Βούλγαροι, Αλλόγλωσσοι, χαρείτε, κι ετοιμασθείτε όλοι σας Ρωμαίοι να γενείτε. Βαρβαρική αφήνοντες γλώσσαν φωνή και ήθη. Ξυπνήσατε απ’ τον βαθύ ύπνο της αμαθείας. Ρωμαίικια γλώσσα μάθετε. Μητέρα της Σοφίας…
Aπο τοτετράγλωσσο λεξικό του Δανιήλ Μοσχοπολίτη (1802).
It would have been better for both the Ottomans and the non-Greek Christians if the Patriarchate had been destroyed from the beginning. However the Turks didnt want to deal with the small issues of the Christians and wanted a center from which all the millet could be controlled. A place close to the Sultan and a place inevitably loyal to him as well.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 8, 2010 20:19:48 GMT -5
"Russians did the wrong thing by giving the idea of a Bulgarian Exarchia"
Thats right Patrino, Russia was sympathic with the Bulgars, they wanted to create a super Bulgarska. The Russian were poisoned by Venelin, Verkovich and from the Bulgars who lived in Russian then.
I'll tell Asen soon a reason for this frenchmens assesment ;D
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 10, 2010 8:14:03 GMT -5
In a day or two, l will explain why this happened ;D
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 10, 2010 9:58:02 GMT -5
please dont no one is interested in your serbian propaganda.
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Post by rusebg on Jan 10, 2010 19:05:43 GMT -5
Russians probably did the wrong thing by helping you to get rid of the Ottomans as well? I never knew Russians were supposed to help Greece only. Since when is that?
That said, the Bulgarian Exarchate was a Bulgarian movement, Russians had nothing to do with it.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 10, 2010 19:28:43 GMT -5
^ yes it was a movement with its main purpose of converting serbs into BULGARS!.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jan 10, 2010 20:13:26 GMT -5
Dear Captain Kangaroo,
while you are at it, see about explain why practically all western scholars and/or travelers through Macedonia have found that Macedonians are Bulgarians.
The purpose of the movement was to counter-balance the Hellinization process undertaken by Greece.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 10, 2010 23:55:07 GMT -5
^ Asen, l'm not talking about modern Bulgaria, but regions that were never Bulgarian.
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Post by rusebg on Jan 11, 2010 7:55:06 GMT -5
The movement was started in Skopje by Bulgarians. Period. Now go and castrate some kangaroos, so they don't smell when you slaughter them for Gyro's steaks.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Jan 11, 2010 10:27:45 GMT -5
Only accoridng to your sources that heavily seem to rely on referencing professors from the University of Belgrade.
And we are mainly discussing that Macedonians were NOT Serbs, and never were Serbs. Any Serb influence prior to the early 20th c. was negligible. And in more recent times, the Serbian influence is/was linguistic and political alone.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 11, 2010 19:08:54 GMT -5
First off, l'm going to post the main reason why the vardarians were called BULGARS by the confused travellors prior to the establishment of the Turkish backed Bulgarian Exarchate. Later, l will link this to Pouqueville.
Read the following:
There are many unsolved mysteries in the Balkans, some of which no doubt are abused by nationalists to spread confusion and cause tension. Take for example the dual meaning of the word “Vulgar”. Before nationalism became widespread in the Balkans, “Vulgar” was a word that described the lower class of people, a certain segment of the Byzantine and later of the Ottoman population in the Balkans. “Vulgar” is believed to be a derivative of the Latin word “Vulgaris” which roughly translates to “common” or “everyday”. With time “Vulgaris” evolved to “Vulgar” meanings “lacking of manners”, “uneducated”, “of low class”, “dirty” and so on. In the hands of the Koine speakers the word “Vulgar” became Βολγαροι. When transposed to the medieval languages Βολγαροι became Bolgars. In Koine there was in fact another Word, the “ethnic definition” of the Βονλγαροι or Boulgaroi (Bulgarians), a people who once built an empire in the Balkans. The word Βονλγαροι (Boulgaroi) is derived from the word Βονλγα (Voulga). Βονλγα is the Koine name of the river Volga where the Proto Bulgarians originated. When the written form of the Koine word “Βονλγαροι” was transposed to the modern languages, it became Bulgars. The close spelling and pronunciation of the two words “Βολγαροι” and “Βονλγαροι” in Koine became confusing, misleading and for the most part, indistinguishable to non-Koine speakers, particularly to foreigners who were not familiar with the Balkan cultures. Outsiders (non-Balkanites) who lacked knowledge of the meaning of the two words “Bolgar” and “Bulgar” used them interchangeably as if they were synonymous until the word “Bolgar” was eventually dropped in favour of the word Bulgar. During the 19th century after the formation of the new Balkan States, Bulgaria began to deliberately misuse the word “Bolgar” to mean “ethnic Bulgar”. By claiming all “Bolgars” in the Balkans to be “ethnic Bulgarians” it began to make claims on Macedonian territories under the guise that the peasant population of Macedonia was actually ethnically Bulgarian. Evidence of the widespread use of the word “Bolgar” can be found not just in Bulgaria and Macedonia but in other parts of the Balkans. The Russian traveler Simeon Lehatsi, who traveled through the Balkans in 1608 and visited Sarai, a region in Bosnia which exists to this day, commented that “the Bosnian population does not speak the Turkish language, it speaks Bolgarian”. From the Bosnians he learned that in Rumelia, outside of the larger towns, there were “80,000 Bolgarian villages which were of the Greek Orthodox faith”. He also says that many Bosnians [note he calls them Bosnians and not Bulgarians] because of the Harach [taxes in blood] changed their religion into Moslems. On the issue of languages spoken in Bosnia he says “all people in Bosnia speak Bolgarian”. What exactly did Simeon Lehatsi mean when he called the Bosnian rural population and their language “Bolgarian”? Did he mean “ethnic Bulgarian” or did he mean something else? You can ask the Bosnians if they feel as Bulgarians. And I can assure you they do not feel as Bulgarian exactly as Macedonians do not feel so. Bulgarian monk Paisiy Hilendarski, wrote in his Book “Istoriya Slavyanobolgarskaiya” (History of the Slavobolgarians) “why are you ashamed to call yourselves Bolgarian?” The answer he was usually receiving from the people was : “The Greeks [merchant class] are wiser and more cultured, whereas we the Bolgarians are simpleminded, unintelligent and have no refined words in our language.” Here one can see that even many Ethnic Bulgarians were confused by the two different but very similar words. They were ashamed to call them Bolgarians, or people with lower culture. The Bulgarian Monk also wrote: “I have witnessed many Bulgarians behave in this manner”. So if I may be allowed to say, we have no idea how many of these people were actually ethnic Bulgarians. It is impossible to tell. But what we can tell is that the word Bolgarian was understood as designatio of people of lower class.
Further evidence of the existence of the “Bolgar” class can be found in Serbian and Croatian epic folk songs called “Bulgarshtitsa” (Bulgarian folk songs). “Bugarshtitse” were most common from the 16th to the 18th century and could be found near the Adriatic Shores from Zadar to Perasta and Kotor. Similar folk songs have also been found to exist in Italy but in an earlier period. The oldest Serbian or Croatian “bulgarshtitsa” dating back to 1497, in the Neretva dialect (a region of Dalmatia), was found in southern Italy. From the evidence given above and given that nationalism and ethnic distinctions did not exist until much later, it is safe to assume that the word “Bolgar” alluded to a certain social class of people. In 1861 the Brothers Miladinovi published a collection of songs which they called “Bulgarian Folk Songs”. Like those originating in Serbia and Croatia this particular set of folk songs also originated outside of Bulgaria; in Macedonia. Like the “Bugarshtitse” which belonged not to the Bulgarians but to the Serbians and Croatians, this particular set of folk songs belonged to the Macedonians. Why then are the Bulgarians laying claim to the works of the Brothers Miladinovi belonging to the Macedonians and not to those belonging to the Serbians and Croatians? Why is the “common” class of people in Macedonia considered to be “ethnic Bulgarian” by the Bulgarian State and not those in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia? Could it be because Bulgaria has territorial claims on Macedonia?
Do you readers see the reason why the vardarians were called Bulgars?. I will further this either tomorrow or the day after tomorrow ;D
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 12, 2010 0:30:00 GMT -5
The above is the worst etyomological show ever... and it isnt a surprise since Pouqueville was not a historian not etymologist but a diplomat and traveler. But ofcourse it makes to different to Novi since he doesnt know how to tell the difference.
There is absolutely no connection between the Latin word vulgus (as in vulgar) and Volga/Bulgarian...
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Post by rusebg on Jan 12, 2010 2:58:02 GMT -5
When the Miladinov's brothers published their book, there was no Bulgaria. It was the Ottoman Empire. The same case with macedonia. Go on, Novi, show us once again you don't read the stupidities you post.
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 12, 2010 3:10:53 GMT -5
Why is the “common” class of people in Macedonia considered to be “ethnic Bulgarian” by the Bulgarian State and not those in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia? Could it be because Bulgaria has territorial claims on Macedonia? No man!!! its just your impression ;D ;D Anyway, fine, well put and detailed arguments from your side Bro. Novi you know, some Croats/Bosniaks/South Serbs/Slavomakedonians say -l instead of -o in the end of masculin words (stol vs sto, rekal vs rekao, kisel(i) vs kiseo, bijel(i) vs beo etc... the -o ending is 100% Valjevo-Sumadinski influence in the whole Serbo-Bosnio-Croatian language) Brate, you'll see one day the mongols will discover that and start claiming the Kajkavians the Cakavians, the Stokavian Croats and all of Bosnian muslims as well.... (not to mention that Slovenes say: Vranec, Smetana, etc... just like the FYROMAKS).... But i'll stop here, i dont wanna put ideas into their empty heads!! ;D PS Greeks called as Bulgarians ALL slavs, because our simplistic view thats what it wanted to/could see. Till 1850+ in Greece there have been only generic Slavo-Greek dictionaries and not particular Serbian/Bulgarian/Russian/Czech/Slovak/etc... If we were neighbors with BijeloRussians then we would call Bulgarians as BijeloRussians as well.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Jan 12, 2010 6:01:45 GMT -5
Why is the “common” class of people in Macedonia considered to be “ethnic Bulgarian” by the Bulgarian State and not those in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia? Could it be because Bulgaria has territorial claims on Macedonia? Could it be because we have: 1) same origin; 2) same history; 3) same language; 4) same culture. etc.
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