ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Feb 3, 2010 11:19:29 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with the settings. It's written using the Bulgarian alphabet, so you'd need to change the encoding of the page you are viewing to use 'Windows Cyrillic' or 'UTF-8' or something along those lines.
Here, I'll wrtie it in Latineca:
Pazareeee, tova ne e mojta logika, tova e logikata na uchenite, nauuchenite, i izuchinite.. no ne mislia che tvoia malak mozak niakoga bi go razbral tova.
Da vidim dali barem shte razberesh tova kadeto sam ti pisal. Ako iskash, kazhi na niakoj tvoj Makedonski prijatel da napravi prevod. Ili kazhi na niakoj istinski Torlak da ti pomogne s prevoda.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Feb 3, 2010 11:27:01 GMT -5
Ljubotan, good to read your input.. as you usually post intersting things. Do you speak Serbian as well?
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 3, 2010 16:05:34 GMT -5
I speak Serbian, but I can't hit the cases dead on; therefore, I would say I speak more the Torlak dialect then say Serbian from Beograd.
I think this dialect (Torlak) has unfortunately been neglected, and it should be made into an official dialect. There are many old words still used in this dialect that have ceased in both Serbian and Bulgarian official languages.
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
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Post by Nikola on Feb 3, 2010 16:48:14 GMT -5
I will admit, while I do speak a 'macedonian' dialect the language does sound stupid with its grammer. All the 'ta' endings etc; I definitely don't like speaking it! Serbo-Croatian sounds normal and smooth, while 'macedonian' sounds like something is wrong with the language. Sad to say but I guess its just the backwardness of the area and the low level of intelligence related to the inhabitants there. Oh wow, hahahaha. I can't believe you wrote that.  |
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 3, 2010 17:04:15 GMT -5
What are you 'wow' about? That is my opinion on it and considering I've heard other slavic languages its pretty dead on. The grammar is ridiculous and some words can take on 3 different meanings; that's how 'deep' the vocabulary is.
I've course I'm going to be a bit harasher because for a country of only 1.2mil Slavs they sure do manage to piss off all their neighbors, yet they're all talk and never action. Vardar has never had any significant person come out of the area (educator, warrior, politician, saint, inventor etc). Just a bunch of farmers and gossipy ladies; except of course for the Serb minority:)
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Feb 3, 2010 17:46:38 GMT -5
Uhhh, Ljubotan, I'd have to strongly disagree with your statements here. There have been many examples of the things you list, and have all originated from Macedonia. Regarding educators and saints, let's not forget St. Clement of Ohrid who is credited with the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet. Politicians.. well, I guess Lubcho Georgievski was pretty cool. And warriors.. I mean come on, the list here is so long, Todor Alexandrov, Vanche Mihailov, Dame Gruev to name a few. The only thing is that all these people only identified as Macedonians in the geographical sense, ethnically they called themselves Bulgarians.
I get the feeling that you are mostly basing your statements on recent events, which wouldn’t really be fair.
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 3, 2010 18:05:13 GMT -5
True Asen, as I stated I don't like the way they treat all their neighbors. Everythings about them, yet they've never given anything back to the Balkans.
Those you mentioned were not warriors but bandits, big difference. My bad, St. Clement of Ohrid is a honorable saint. I firmly believe the country needs to formly change its name completely or it should be divided. I cannot stand people there thinking they're ancient Macedonians and dressing up in ancient Macedonian costums. Its quite pathetic to say the least. They're politicans are weak and don't have any backbone, especially Ljupco!
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 3, 2010 19:59:28 GMT -5
"Why were the cases lost? There must have not been a very strong slavic presence in these areas to begin with, so the population was forced to learn slavic while keeping their grammer from the former."
Its because the language of the vardarian (Fyromian Slavs) evolved due to its position in the balkans. Slovene developed and evolved due to her position in the balkans also from a common language we all spoke 800 to 1000 years ago. I have a serbian source which mentions that during WW2 some of the slovenes in the serbian front conversed with local slavs of edessa etc...and these slavs understood the slovenes much more than either the bulgars or serbs. Some sources say slovene is most closest to proto-slavic and the linguistic oases that were found during WW2 prove that slavic evolved and developed due to its locality in the Balkans.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 3, 2010 20:14:09 GMT -5
"Pazareeee, tova ne e mojta logika, tova e logikata na uchenite, nauuchenite, i izuchinite.. no ne mislia che tvoia malak mozak niakoga bi go razbral tova." "Da vidim dali barem shte razberesh tova kadeto sam ti pisal. Ako iskash, kazhi na niakoj tvoj Makedonski prijatel da napravi prevod. Ili kazhi na niakoj istinski Torlak da ti pomogne s prevoda." Thankyou, if you are going to write to me in a slavic language do so in latinica. Asen, can you please stop twisting everything and excusing everything you say here. I'm telling the truth, l don't care what others think. Asen, its amazing you and the bulgars, due to Ruse's influence don't believe l have some knowledge in slavic Remember some of my relatives who used to live in south kosovo weren't far from a region known to you as Cerna Gora or Crna Gora in serbian/vardarian. I still cannot stop laughing over: "se izbugari" LMAO |
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 3, 2010 22:11:38 GMT -5
Luboten is right, Macedonian slavs are the definition of peasants.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 3, 2010 22:28:16 GMT -5
"I think this dialect (Torlak) has unfortunately been neglected, and it should be made into an official dialect. There are many old words still used in this dialect that have ceased in both Serbian and Bulgarian official languages."
I agree also ;D Ljubo, l hear there is a revival of the dialect in serbia with the printing of dictionaries etc...but, really, who knows?
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Feb 3, 2010 23:58:09 GMT -5
One man’s bandit is another man’s warrior.
Uhh you, ‘Slovene’ is not spoken in the Balkans as Slovenia is not in the Balkans.
Again with the Serbian source, huh? You really should set foot outside of your enchanted circle, see what else is out there.
Stuff like this is debatable and it depends on the sample of people you are talking about. Plus, some Slavic languages are more understandable to one party than another. I, for example, have never studied or learned Russian, but I can understand significantly more Russian than my Russian friends can understand Bulgarian. I can say the same about a few other Slavic languages that are nowhere near the Balkans.
This is possible as the Slovenes are probably much more pure Slavs than any Balkan Slavs.
I’m not excusing anything. The points that I make are not my own findings, I’m just reciting what I’ve read in a wide variety of independent, mostly western, sources.
You are only reciting the Serbian perspective of things, for everything and anything you post. If you want your posts to hold at least some credibility, I’d suggest looking around at some sources that are not directly linked to the region in some way or another.
So write back in Torlak then, or whatever Slavic dialect you’d like, I’m sure I’ll manage to understand you.
Come on guys, you are just hatin’ now. Macedonians in general are no different from any other population with respect to acting like peasants. There are those that fit this definition in every country. Hell, half the people on these forums act like ignorant peasants some of the time.. but we all ppl, we all cool.
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Feb 4, 2010 1:16:19 GMT -5
What are you 'wow' about? That is my opinion on it and considering I've heard other slavic languages its pretty dead on. The grammar is ridiculous and some words can take on 3 different meanings; that's how 'deep' the vocabulary is. I've course I'm going to be a bit harasher because for a country of only 1.2mil Slavs they sure do manage to piss off all their neighbors, yet they're all talk and never action. Vardar has never had any significant person come out of the area (educator, warrior, politician, saint, inventor etc). Just a bunch of farmers and gossipy ladies; except of course for the Serb minority:) Who are YOU to look down on me? What have you achieved in life that makes you so much better than me? All those Serbs who have achieved something are not you. You are just some worthless person with a false superiority complex, who spouts his racism on the Internet towards a bunch of generally friendly and hospitable people. What you wrote is incredibly stupid; from calling Serbo-Croatian "normal", and concluding that the Macedonian language is "wrong" because the inhabitants have low intelligence. Have you looked in the mirror recently? |
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Feb 4, 2010 1:26:04 GMT -5
Luboten is right, Macedonian slavs are the definition of peasants. Coming from a fellow Balkanian, this means a lot. |
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 4, 2010 4:06:49 GMT -5
Not just me, western travellers wrote a lot about this as well.
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 4, 2010 10:23:17 GMT -5
'Macedonians' are definitely one of the hardest working and nicest people of all in the Balkans; however, they're so prosti its beyond believe! Not every single person of course but as a whole compared to other neighbors they're not very smart, they're labor workers, and they have no backbone. They'll allow an ant to walk over them!
The name (Makedonija) has to be changed to reflect the reality of the population. Whether that's Bulgarian, Paeonia, Vardarija its needs to change. Vardar was never 'willingly' apart of the Macedon Kingdom! The Paeonians and Illyrian tribes fought against Phillip and did not want incorporation to his kingdom.
Geographically you're not even 'Macedonian', because geographically it always existed in N. Greece up to Bitola! Geographically you're Vardinac and ethnically a Bulgarian or Serb. Of course you have the right to claim what you want but history doesn't lie.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Feb 4, 2010 10:46:42 GMT -5
Nikola, what are you fuming about!? From what I recall, you claimed yourself to be closer to Serbs/Croats and different from southern Macedonians.
It's true that there were various travelers that had come to these conclusions, but it should be noted that they've made similar conclusions about people in Bulgaria and the Balkan region in general. However, from what I've read, the travelers who actually spent more than a few weeks in the area.. some actually lived there for moths, and even years, came to a different conclusion. That 'ignorant peasant' look was only based on surface impressions..
Now, before anyone makes any more such ‘surface’ conclusions I suggest you actually read up and assess the situation fairly. Consider that Bulgaria and Macedonia were last regions to gain independence from the Ottoman Empire. Consider that within the Ottoman Empire any sign of ‘wealth’ or generally attempting to better yourself or your property was put down in some way or another, unless of course you were of Muslim faith. If you had something ‘nice’ that would become the envy of some Pasha, it would likely be taken away.
Generally the comparisons I’ve read have been between Bulgarians/Macedonians vs. Albanians and Greeks. There was this one book that said it very concisely, and if I can find the quotes, I’ll post them. Either way, the point was that a Western traveler was ‘examining’ the region, mainly Macedonia. And his first impressions were much like yours, that Bulgarians(Macedonians) were ignorant, ugly, peasants. However, when you read on and get closer to his final conclusions he states that the Albanians were as they were mainly because they had mostly accepted Islam. This helped them enjoy a more elevated/respected status within the Ottoman Empire as opposed to Macedonians(Bulgarians). Most importantly, they had permission to bear arms.. which on its own was an incredible self-esteem and confidence booster as that traveler had concluded. Regarding the comparison with Greeks, well, there’s that ‘romantic’ notion in the west that the modern Greeks are exactly the same as the Ancient Greeks.. so the comparison begin to get skewed especially when they have that in the back of their minds.
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Nikola
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Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Feb 4, 2010 16:46:36 GMT -5
Geographically you're not even 'Macedonian', because geographically it always existed in N. Greece up to Bitola! Geographically, "ancient Greece" stretched much further north than Bitola, almost to Skopje.  |
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Nikola
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Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Feb 4, 2010 16:51:55 GMT -5
Nikola, what are you fuming about!? From what I recall, you claimed yourself to be closer to Serbs/Croats and different from southern Macedonians. I was talking about racially. But race doesn't matter in the Balkans. We are all mixed and displaced with one another. I still consider myself as the same culturally as a person from Bitola so I take great offense when someone talks down to my people. Especially when it's someone from the Balkans. We are all backwards people. Westerners make fun of all Balkan countries. To single out Macedonians is like the pot calling the kettle black. |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 4, 2010 18:58:39 GMT -5
Guys, please don't take it out on each other.
Nikola, look, please don't take it out on me but ancient macedonia *only* covered approximately 10% of slavic fyrom (Vardar). The ancient peoples who lived in todays Fyrom (Vardar) were the illyrians and thracians.
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