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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 19, 2010 14:43:29 GMT -5
we can quarrel all the time about several issues-serious or not so serious some times-and getting on each others nevres because of our balkan misery and inferiority complex... i have discovered this masterpiece and no balkanoid has bothered to comment...it's so sad to realise that some people come to the greek sub forum only because they need to satisfy their negative and primitive emotions...i find this behavior so cheap... illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=29695
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Post by Anittas on Mar 23, 2010 21:19:06 GMT -5
This behavior is not cheap. On the contrary, there was a high price to be paid. The way things are now is how Aadmin and Canaris envisioned them to be. Some 7 years ago, Illyria was frequented by many people from different backgrounds, sharing different ideas. Two of them--ApolloGR and Bibleriot--contributed to the debates with sources and rational thinking. They raised the bar and the expectations; they surrounded themselves with others who wanted to learn and to edify.
When the arguments got heated, Canaris would jump in and fullfil his admin role; when there was no hope for reconciliation, Aadmin would draw a parallel between being impulsive and emotional with total disregard to other people--simply put, a moron--and being Balkanoid. He made it to be a sexy thing.
That worked for a year, two; but they soon realized that a forum where intellectual discussion was present was a threat to their role. And so began the campaing of isolating the people that wanted a meaningful exchange of ideas and supporting the diaspora of different nationalities that used nationalism as their weapon. Why else promote the forum on white supremacy sites such as Stormfront? Aadmin was an avid poster in that forum and searched for minions that could spread their hatred on this forum instead.
When the issue was raised, the answer was usually a snort. On ApolloGR's departure, Canaris expressed his disdain by saying that Apollo was a bore. Aadmin explained that as with everything, people come and go. He made it sound as if everyone could be replaced. That may be the case with places that are highly sought after, but if the forum was having difficulties recruiting new members of quality, how much easier would it get when the few members of quality would leave?
To be fair, Aadmin did what he thought was best to keep Bibleriot and Apollo: he bestowed them with the status of moderatorship; then he promoted them to Senior Moderators. That was before half of the members were moderators and for a while it worked... it stimulated the ego of your online identity. Hey, it worked with me... for a few days! But in the long run, it devalued things, especially when new moderators were introduced to replace the goners. The new ones lacked class.
There were a few attempts to preserve the good stuff. Discussions were held and resolutions were advanced in order to restrain the chaos that some uncultivated members infested the forum with. Apollo opened a new forum that was frequented for half a year before it succumbed to inactivity. Canaris mocked this failure by pointing out that Illyria was the place to be... and all other attempts were a pipe's dream supported by some boring people.
Aadmin's vision of creating a powerhouse where his ideals would breed and start a new world order failed. His trickery of using philosophy and any thing worth knowing that was connected to the Balkan region as a coverup for anthropology discussions that favored the Balkans and condemned the rest, enjoyed moderate success. Instead, the small amount of intellectual presence in the forum took a socialistic turn. That was the opposite of what Aadmin wanted and Canaris felt threatened by it as well. To quote Albert Camus from The Fall:
"As a result of not understanding what is said in his presence, he has adopted a distrustful disposition. Whence that look of touchy dignity as if he at least suspected that all is not perfect among men. That disposition makes it less easy to discuss anything with him that does not concern his business."
And that's that.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 23, 2010 23:37:14 GMT -5
Just made this topic an announcement for two reasons. 1) The movie and its message are interesting in the least. 2) It was entertaining reading annitas remarks and it is always entertaining when someone else analyze you I guess (especially when you are made to look into a big bad wolf ;D ) . start a new world orderThese one is an absolute jewel. ;D ;D ;D Annitas thanks so much for this entertainment. (And by all means dont stop there lol )
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Mar 24, 2010 10:10:31 GMT -5
This forum used to be more popular because of the recent wars in the Balkan. People usually like to discuss wars more than they like to discuss peace.
Now war time is gradually getting to history (fortunatelly), so Illiria is getting "less inhabitted"
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 24, 2010 11:11:36 GMT -5
Anittas was the first asshat to cause most of the problems here with his constant meltdowns....
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 24, 2010 11:43:22 GMT -5
Anitta get a life....this forum is a pastime and no inch more. If you feel different about it this is your problem...and what you need then is a psychiatrist and no scientific debates in illyria forums.
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Post by Anittas on Mar 24, 2010 12:51:53 GMT -5
When I first found the forum, the problem was skyhigh. I merely become a reflection of the problem; but even then, my involvement was minimal. I questioned certain practices that annoyed certain key members, including Mr. Canaris. That was my downfall.
Mr. Canaris has in fact looked the other way when parties who supported his patriotic views went berserk while often sactioning their opponents. Since many moderators took his example of how to go about in dealing with these problems, bias became the norm. In fact, Mr. Canaris went so far as to post videos of women being grabbed on their private parts by strangers. This is not only immoral, but also illegal (consult the self-styled lawyer, Kastor, for confirmation). I mention this to offer a better perspective of the low standard that Mr. Canaris brought to the forum.
Whenever such issues were brought up, Mr. Canaris and his cohorts tried to play it down or laugh it off. They would attempt to discredit the critic by claiming that he was emotionally unstable or trying to cause trouble. I played along for a while... it's easy to adopt the role of the nimrod and see where it takes you. Others simply left. In actuality, I was very composed--as I am now--and found it intriguing how an old man could behave in such idiotic way. It has nothing to do with being emotional or seeking political correctness. All of that is irrelevant. I just couldn't swallow this manifestation of open corruption that many of us in the Balkans are familiar with and detest, in a forum where this arrogance and tribal culture was not needed. To be fair, Canaris was not the worst--but he was the Administrator and as such, he must be held to a higher standard. The same standard that he and Aadmin listed in the code of conduct.
I don't want to be misunderstood. The point of my post was not to fingerpoint and list all the wrongdoings that have been committed. I just shared my point of view by addressing the issue that Leandros brought up. I wanted to tell the other story of the coin... of what Illyria could've been and what it finally became. Illyria was hijacked by the likes of Canaris and Kastorianos and those that did not conform to their rules were locked out. It was a gangster operation performed online.
I remember Aadmin saying that he used the forum as an experiment. Well, after so long time has passed, what's the conclusion? That some people will adapt to tyranny while others will object to it? That some will profit from it while others will lose? I could've told you that directly. There was no need for this. Illyria is now a halfsunken ship: it can't be retrieved and you don't have the heart to give it the final blow.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 24, 2010 15:11:15 GMT -5
Kastor is right about this being here primarily just for entertainment purposes and there is some (like annitas) taking this way too seriously (he even remembers all the forum related details which is something that I have never bothered doing ). of what Illyria could've been and what it finally became.It became what people who frequent it made it into and I never restricted opinions only bad behavior. Each forum has been given almost complete autonomy and it is run by 'locals'. People interact much more civil and are far more composed then at the early part of Illyria. There were people like Bibleriot and Apollon who were truly forum jewels but who also felt left out as their views were much broader then those compared to majority of others who frequent Illyria while others might have seen them as a bit arrogant and could not relate to them. At the start I did recruit Balkan people from any site as to me they are Balkan people first and foremost (in most likely scenario just bunch of youngsters anyway without static opinion about anything). Just out of curiosity what exactly is it that Illyria could have become?Perhaps, Forum filled with likes of Bibleriots and Apollons?(Unlikely event since their views were to refined and de-localized when compared with average balkanite) PS: I expressed my views also at various times but never tried to superimpose them on others or restrict others from expressing theirs and that is all I did and not attempt to create a new world order ;D .
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Post by Anittas on Mar 24, 2010 17:40:15 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree. I don't know what you mean when you say that forums were given autonomy, but whatever the rules they chose to enforce and to abide by, those rules should've been equally enforced. This was not the case. There was a double standard in play. I repeat: the moderators backed by Canaris got away with murder; their opponents were punished. Civil opinions got deleted with the excuse of them being provokations.
I'm starting to doubt you even know what went down. You remind me of our senile dictator that was manipulated by his staff. Canaris pulled the strings in the Greek and the Albanian forum. At its peak, the Greek forum was the Acropolis of Illyria-- people would come to read and engage in discussions about any given topic. Some moderators took that for granted and started acting arrogantly. Some members were favored by these divine moderators and would influence their decissions.
You say I took it too seriously, but there were times when I didn't take it too seriously. There were times when I was playful and was in for the entertainment; but then I got censored and had my posts deleted: and no, it's not because my posts were outrageous. They were not any worse than the posts of some of the moderators. As for being emotional, to delete and to censor opinions because they don't adhere to your ego is not only a decission based on emotions, but also weak and destructive.
Why is it that when someone like me complained, we got stamped as being emotional and had our argument invalidated; but when Kastorianos deleted, locked and censored, his decission was not questioned?
This is not only about me. Look at Janissary aka Vizier of Oz: he can't post his opinions anymore without risking censorship, so he cares only for posting articles and links. That's how he communicates his thoughts: through subtle and cryptic messages; and even that practice was questioned by two moderators a while ago.
So when you say that the forum became what people made it to be I say, no: it became what a group of people wanted it to become. They steered it in this direction. Maybe you thought you were being tolerant when you granted forum autonomy and wanted to do the opposite of what the Serb leaders did to Yugoslavia. That don't matter. None of your principles were honored in this forum. Your mistake was that you played it down and remained apathetic to the cries for help. You empowered the wrong people.
Bibleriot and Apollo left the forum for different, yet common reasons. Apollo was busy with his career and private life and had to fit his timeschedule to make it as efficient and as productive as possible. The forum quality went down and it just wasn't good enough for him anymore. Bibleriot, on the other hand, invested a great deal in the forum and gave it many chances, but had to eventually give up on the same terms as Apollo. It had nothing to do with their voice being in the minority.
Like a business, a forum needs a foundation; like a garden, it needs to be cared for. It's not just about creating it and do nothing. Afterall, it wasn't the only forum on the internet. Illyria had a great start, but it was left out in the cold. The forum needed an environment that secured and encouraged meaningful discussion. To secure such an environment, one needs to strike down on the spammers, the trolls and redudancy. That's the price to pay and it's a price worth paying for. It got nothing to do with eliteness. It also doesn't make things boring; it doesn't counteract playfulness. It just restricts destructive behavior: not opinions, not playfulness. We could've had a seperate forum where idiocy could've taken place freely to make everyone happy.
I, and others like me, learned a few things from this forum: I was introduced to good books; I was exposed to interesting ideas; I learned new things; I interacted with interesting people. It all depends on what you choose to see. If you merely want to kill time by posting nonsense, it's no wonder you don't see good purpose in maintaining good order on the forum. The greatest issue this forum had was its dependency on conflict in order to strive. That needed to be fixed. Longterm, arguments for the sake of arguments never play out. There are tons of forums that are junk: here, we had the chance to make something unique--that chance was not taken.
Illyria has fallen to the point where we now have Kastorianos fulfilling the role of the logical and the intellectual gentleman. It's so superficial it makes it embarrassing to watch. It's even more tragic to see some buy into his image of the German school of thought combined with Greek passion. I suppose that's what you get when you cross Greek tragedy with Greek comedy.
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Post by redbaron on Mar 24, 2010 18:17:14 GMT -5
It is an internet forum man. Chill. If you don't like it find one that you like or open your own forum. This forum has an owner and he does whatever he wants with it.It doesn't matter if we like it or not. It is cyber space. Don't need to get all serious about it or loose sleep over it.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 24, 2010 18:38:41 GMT -5
now do finally some straight talking anittas...and tell us that this is just the introduction to your upcoming autobiography...
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Post by Anittas on Mar 24, 2010 18:47:34 GMT -5
It is an internet forum man. Chill. If you don't like it find one that you like or open your own forum. This forum has an owner and he does whatever he wants with it.It doesn't matter if we like it or not. It is cyber space. Don't need to get all serious about it or loose sleep over it. I will use this post as a prime example of the kind of inferior quality that was part of the problem and which helped ruin the whole concept of the forum. For me to do that, I must pick apart the post. It is an internet forum man.No one is misguided as to the nature of this place. If you don't like it find one that you like or open your own forum.Redherring. I could do that, but I could also raise some issues that pertain to this forum: especially when it's on topic and in context. This forum has an owner and he does whatever he wants with it.Aadmin is not the owner of this forum and he is not at liberty to do what he wishes. Apart from agreeing to follow the Terms of Service, he must abide by the law in the country that he resides. It doesn't matter if we like it or not.Well, it may matter to us. It may or not matter to Aadmin, but it is not necessary for his sake that I posted the initial post. The post that I followed up on was to reply to Aadmin's point of view and to answer to his question. It is cyber spaceYes it is and you made that clear when you said it was an "internet forum". Don't need to get all serious about it or loose sleep over itI'm not losing any sleep over it. Apart from the few posts that I made during these past two weeks, I haven't posted in over a year. I don't know why I shouldn't get serious about it. As I mentioned many times before: this kind of distraction is what ruined the whole concept. This is just one post, but multiply it with hundreds of such posts a week and it's not hard to understand why some people lost the motivation to engage in meaningful discussion. And that's the point I was making.
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Post by redbaron on Mar 24, 2010 20:42:52 GMT -5
[ I will use this post as a prime example of the kind of inferior quality that was part of the problem and which helped ruin the whole concept of the forum. For me to do that, I must pick apart the post.Oh so now we have a quality inspector teaching us the ropes of posting online. You are free to use my posts to show the inferior quality of the forum but just to be fair bring also some of the jewels that you have posted here in years so we would be reminded of the quality that you have brought to us. As for the concept of the forum nobody put you in charge to decide what the concept of the forum was or will be.AAdmin already replied to you very clearly about that. I will quote him for you again " being here primarily just for entertainment purposes and there is some (like annitas) taking this way too seriously (he even remembers all the forum related details which is something that I have never bothered doing".No one is misguided as to the nature of this place.You are but you don't get it yet. Redherring. I could do that, but I could also raise some issues that pertain to this forum: especially when it's on topic and in context.
Yes we offer that opportunity in this forum.People are free to raise their issues regardless of the difference of opinions. It is part of the qualities we have here. Aadmin is not the owner of this forum and he is not at liberty to do what he wishes. Apart from agreeing to follow the Terms of Service, he must abide by the law in the country that he resides.
What do the laws of a country have to do with the things you are complaining about? What law forbids him to change moderators, to delete posts, ban members, or favor one poster or another, or even don't care of what is going on in here at all ? Well, it may matter to us. It may or not matter to Aadmin, but it is not necessary for his sake that I posted the initial post. The post that I followed up on was to reply to Aadmin's point of view and to answer to his question.Once again he can do whatever he wants with this forum. Yes it is and you made that clear when you said it was an "internet forum".But you still don't get it. Go out in the real world and get some fresh air. You have a lot more choices than this forum. I'm not losing any sleep over it. Apart from the few posts that I made during these past two weeks, I haven't posted in over a year. I don't know why I shouldn't get serious about it.
As I mentioned many times before: this kind of distraction is what ruined the whole concept. This is just one post, but multiply it with hundreds of such posts a week and it's not hard to understand why some people lost the motivation to engage in meaningful discussion. And that's the point I was making.[/quote] [/i] Once again this forum it is not yours and it was not built on your concept. Open your own forum based on your own concept and keep people motivated and engaged in meaningful discussions. If you don't like it don't post here don't read here ,nobody is forcing you to do any of that.
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Post by Anittas on Mar 24, 2010 22:30:09 GMT -5
You're still missing the point, redbarron. It is irrelevant whether I have the authority to "decide the concept of the forum". I don't need to have the authority in order to share my view. One doesn't need authority for that. Your best shot would've been to question my moral authority, but even that would've been a long shot and you would require to have good debate skills, which you simply lack. Aadmin's reply, that you mention, has no connection to what you say. If I would've claimed authority over the forum you could've dismissed that by saying that I don't have it.
Then you continue to answer to things that were never claimed by me and contradict yourself when you say that "people are free to raise their issues regardless of the difference of opinions" only to deny me that privilage by bringing up the above-mentioned argument.
So what is the message that you are trying to convey? Is it:
A) I shouldn't share my criticism that I have against the forum ("If you don't like it don't post here don't read here"), or;
B) "People are free to raise their issues regardless of the difference of opinions"
These two statements are contradicting each other. You can't have both. Pick one and I'll follow up on that.
As a last twist, you are contradicting yourself once more by implying that one who wasn't granted authority in the forum should not excercise it; yet that is exactly what you do when you give out ultimatums.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Mar 25, 2010 3:00:58 GMT -5
In my opinion, Anittas raised valuable concerns related to this forum.
I hope respective parties would use his critics to reevaluate their views and behaviours.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 25, 2010 5:28:56 GMT -5
In my opinion, Anittas raised valuable concerns related to this forum. I hope respective parties would use his critics to reevaluate their views and behaviours. I agree,but he contributed the problem also.After my repeated attempts to make him stop.he just continually mocked me.IMO the bipolarity he exhibited back then is just back to kick some more sand in our faces.I don't believe his requests are genuine.
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Post by redbaron on Mar 25, 2010 18:35:35 GMT -5
You're still missing the point, redbarron. It is irrelevant whether I have the authority to "decide the concept of the forum". I don't need to have the authority in order to share my view. One doesn't need authority for that. Your best shot would've been to question my moral authority, but even that would've been a long shot and you would require to have good debate skills, which you simply lack. Aadmin's reply, that you mention, has no connection to what you say. If I would've claimed authority over the forum you could've dismissed that by saying that I don't have it. Then you continue to answer to things that were never claimed by me and contradict yourself when you say that "people are free to raise their issues regardless of the difference of opinions" only to deny me that privilage by bringing up the above-mentioned argument. So what is the message that you are trying to convey? Is it: A) I shouldn't share my criticism that I have against the forum ("If you don't like it don't post here don't read here"), or; B) "People are free to raise their issues regardless of the difference of opinions" These two statements are contradicting each other. You can't have both. Pick one and I'll follow up on that. As a last twist, you are contradicting yourself once more by implying that one who wasn't granted authority in the forum should not excercise it; yet that is exactly what you do when you give out ultimatums. Let the others decide on my lack of debate skills or your lack of common sense.I have no desire or authority to deny you or give you ultimatums on anything. Read again and you will see that A & B say that you have the freedom of choice to do whatever you want . I have critiqued AAdmin and moderators in the past and i will do it every time i feel like. So you are not doing something that wasn't done before. I am not contradicting myself anywhere. These are your words"that was part of the problem and which helped ruin the whole concept of the forum." You have the right to share your opinion on the concept of the forum, AAdmin has his own concept of the forum. This forum works based on his concept.The message that i want to convey is: Before you come and give as the pep talk of how the Aadmin.moderators and posters here have ruined the quality of the forum with their behavior or low quality posts. You should show us how you an old member of this forum have contributed to raise the quality of the forum. Show us your high quality posts.Until you prove that you are as low as us or maybe lower.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Mar 26, 2010 3:44:09 GMT -5
I agree,but he contributed the problem also.After my repeated attempts to make him stop.he just continually mocked me.IMO the bipolarity he exhibited back then is just back to kick some more sand in our faces.I don't believe his requests are genuine. Well, everyone has his/her style as a critic. Perhaps that is why, he kept on satiring you instead of following some bad examples. Nevertheless, he overall raised valuable points about the manners of certain moderators as well as Aadmin. I think you guys should think about those points.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Mar 26, 2010 8:07:20 GMT -5
Man Anittas has got free time on his hands again. Anittas how about when u attacked Ruse personally?... did anyone intervene then? did the mods act unfairly? Or when u would just sh.t stir for no reason. There are points that I agree with but this is a forum, the dynamics are likely to change according to the contributers its not a holy law system here, actually I reckon this forum is one of the most laid back i HAVE EVER SEEN, although we do have some pricks who try to act like big men when they are little boys, but nothing that can't be dealt with
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Post by Anittas on Mar 29, 2010 8:22:06 GMT -5
I'm sorry to see that many of you have gotten defensive over this. However, if you read more closely, you might notice that I never made any requests. I merely pointed out some faults and described how things could be better. There is therefore no need trust me in anything, with or without making requests; and evidently, I got nothing to prove. If I had requested the changes to be implemented by me, then and only then would my credibility have been relevant.
It's as if I were to say to a group of people in a park that it would be nice if China would drop the censorship and someone would come forward and question my credibility.
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