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Post by ulf on Oct 21, 2010 11:35:36 GMT -5
Slavic look is well known to people here I assume, but Slavs also have similar cultural and traditional values, apart from language. Gorani don't look Slavic at all or do they have similar traditional and cultural values. IMHO *many* Serbs from Serbia look more like greeks while e.g. Bosnian muslims from posavina look like germans. And in many cases *some* Serbs from south Serbia are even darker than Greeks. A comparison of the national teams (basketball/football) of Serbia/Croatia/BiH/CG/fyrMakedonia/Greece//Bulgaria/Turkey could serve as a first indication. So, i think that Slavdom is smth in the soul/mind/culture and not in the body. Hmm, sorry but those darker have less or maybe nothing, in genetic sense, with Slavs. I know there are ~20% of such "darker" people in Belgrade. But some 60-70% wouldn't have problem to fit in Czech or Slovakia, whereas 10% are "white aborigines" and even can look similar to as Fins or Estonians. Slavs that arrived in Balkan had neither black nor blond hair, so I guess everyone in this category fits in "Slavic look".
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Post by shejtani on Oct 21, 2010 14:42:33 GMT -5
how do you know they didn't have blond or black hair ?
We know nothing about the early Slavs and their look, because everywhere they mixed with other ethnicities (Slovaks, Pols, Czechs etc ... all mixed with others, so did Balkans Slavs).
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Post by ulf on Oct 21, 2010 15:01:15 GMT -5
how do you know they didn't have blond or black hair ? We know nothing about the early Slavs and their look, because everywhere they mixed with other ethnicities (Slovaks, Pols, Czechs etc ... all mixed with others, so did Balkans Slavs). "They do not differ even in shape from one another. All are particularly tall and stout; their bodies and hair are neither very white nor blond nor are they very dark, but all are ruddy." (Procopius, de bello gothico, III. 14.22-30.) Those are the Slavs that invaded Eastern Roman Empire in 6th century when the biggest wave inhabited Balkan, so yeah we do know.
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Post by shejtani on Oct 21, 2010 15:05:33 GMT -5
how do you know they didn't have blond or black hair ? We know nothing about the early Slavs and their look, because everywhere they mixed with other ethnicities (Slovaks, Pols, Czechs etc ... all mixed with others, so did Balkans Slavs). "They do not differ even in shape from one another. All are particularly tall and stout; their bodies and hair are neither very white nor blond nor are they very dark, but all are ruddy." (Procopius, de bello gothico, III. 14.22-30.) Those are the Slavs that invaded Eastern Roman Empire in 6th century when the biggest wave inhabited Balkan, so yeah we do know. yes but you should be very carefull with the descriptions of the antique historians ... But I would like to see how they were ! are they images made by computer of how they could have looked like ?
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Post by ulf on Oct 21, 2010 15:39:04 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 22, 2010 0:46:33 GMT -5
^ The original slavs were a pure nordic race, like the north germanics (Norweigns or Swedes). Sorbs (Serbs) of Eastern Germany have many individuals of Nordic characteristics. Skeletical remains of Slavs of eastern germany (probably of Sorbs/Serbs) are purely Nordic.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 22, 2010 0:53:32 GMT -5
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Post by plisbardhi on Oct 22, 2010 1:38:34 GMT -5
Ulf, are those pictures of Serb rulers supposed to be reconstructed after their actual remains? They look more like an artist's renditions to me.
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 22, 2010 1:53:04 GMT -5
IMHO *many* Serbs from Serbia look more like greeks while e.g. Bosnian muslims from posavina look like germans. And in many cases *some* Serbs from south Serbia are even darker than Greeks. A comparison of the national teams (basketball/football) of Serbia/Croatia/BiH/CG/fyrMakedonia/Greece//Bulgaria/Turkey could serve as a first indication. So, i think that Slavdom is smth in the soul/mind/culture and not in the body. Hmm, sorry but those darker have less or maybe nothing, in genetic sense, with Slavs. I know there are ~20% of such "darker" people in Belgrade. But some 60-70% wouldn't have problem to fit in Czech or Slovakia, whereas 10% are "white aborigines" and even can look similar to as Fins or Estonians. Slavs that arrived in Balkan had neither black nor blond hair, so I guess everyone in this category fits in "Slavic look". (we've been through this many times, i guess.) What makes you think that Czechs are "true" slavs? Even themselves admit, that a large portion of them are slavicized Germans. Big amounts of German (ostrogoth) blood (poland/russia/czech/slovakia/ukraine/yugoslavia/bulgaria), Celt blood (yugoslavia, czech,slovakia, bulgaria), Roman blood (Yugoslavia/Greece/Bulgaria), Greek/Thracian blood (bulgaria, serbia) was injected into the ranks of Slavs, for the simple fact that slavic culture (no matter how this fact is hidden in the mainstream literature) was practically sweeping all over the eastern/central part of europe. Slavdom was a cult, an ideology, a religion, someone might say. If you wish, you may search about the work of "Peter Charanis" on the subject. If you are interested i can give you all the material.
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 22, 2010 1:55:15 GMT -5
^ The original slavs were a pure nordic race, like the north germanics (Norweigns or Swedes). Sorbs (Serbs) of Eastern Germany have many individuals of Nordic characteristics. Skeletical remains of Slavs of eastern germany (probably of Sorbs/Serbs) are purely Nordic. but Novi, then again, this Sorb : looks more like yugoslav than swedish, right?
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Post by ulf on Oct 22, 2010 6:47:58 GMT -5
Ulf, are those pictures of Serb rulers supposed to be reconstructed after their actual remains? They look more like an artist's renditions to me. As far as I know all of the Serbian rulers from Nemanjic dynasty were buried in the monasteries they built, but I am not sure if this pictures were done upon their burial remaining
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Post by ulf on Oct 22, 2010 6:58:13 GMT -5
Hmm, sorry but those darker have less or maybe nothing, in genetic sense, with Slavs. I know there are ~20% of such "darker" people in Belgrade. But some 60-70% wouldn't have problem to fit in Czech or Slovakia, whereas 10% are "white aborigines" and even can look similar to as Fins or Estonians. Slavs that arrived in Balkan had neither black nor blond hair, so I guess everyone in this category fits in "Slavic look". (we've been through this many times, i guess.) What makes you think that Czechs are "true" slavs? Even themselves admit, that a large portion of them are slavicized Germans. Big amounts of German (ostrogoth) blood (poland/russia/czech/slovakia/ukraine/yugoslavia/bulgaria), Celt blood (yugoslavia, czech,slovakia, bulgaria), Roman blood (Yugoslavia/Greece/Bulgaria), Greek/Thracian blood (bulgaria, serbia) was injected into the ranks of Slavs, for the simple fact that slavic culture (no matter how this fact is hidden in the mainstream literature) was practically sweeping all over the eastern/central part of europe. Slavdom was a cult, an ideology, a religion, someone might say. If you wish, you may search about the work of "Peter Charanis" on the subject. If you are interested i can give you all the material. Pyrros that explains why some modern day West Slavs look non-Slavic, still this number is small, and I agree with Novi Pazar when he said most of early Slavs were Balto-Nordic, but just those at very north, in Baltic sea area and thereabouts. Moravians(Czechoslovaks) probably were looking like they do now, meaning darker then those northern Slavs but still with some brown/light brown hair at least. And that Sorb looks like gypsy comparing to other Sorbs in Germany
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 22, 2010 7:18:17 GMT -5
^^ That Sorb belongs to the Sorbian elite, as is a prominent politician. Here is another one: Pavle Jurisic:
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Post by ulf on Oct 22, 2010 8:55:21 GMT -5
^^ That Sorb belongs to the Sorbian elite, as is a prominent politician. Here is another one: Pavle Jurisic: I know who was Pavle Jurisic Sturm, what's the point?
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 22, 2010 9:03:38 GMT -5
The point is that the answer to our genetic questions is that we do not have a clue actually, and until God himself shows on earth with a set of requirements/prerequisites/conditions/specifications that can entirely describe the "perfect" slav (a reference *implementation* by His Greatness, God Himself), all we will be doing will be reading idiotic "genetic" "studies"/wikipedia pages. People seem to have adopted as a universal axiom that the more "south" one nation goes, the more "bastardized" it gets. That's 100% arbitrary.
To the best of my knowledge, currently there is no official authority which issues "slav" certificates, anywhere in the world.
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Post by ulf on Oct 22, 2010 13:02:33 GMT -5
No pyrros, you're wrong. Slavs weren't just traditions and belief system ideology, as you think, but a group of proto-Balto-Slavic ancient branch, and normally they looked different then modern Balkan Slavs(still do). Also, regions such as the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal have more non-European blood(except few isolated pockets), its a fact.
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Post by ulf on Oct 22, 2010 13:08:07 GMT -5
I already spoke here where was location of Slavic original homeland, so don't wish to be repetitive, but it surely wasn't Balkan
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 22, 2010 14:35:47 GMT -5
i have nothing against being wrong, but in this specific passage above it is absolutely impossible to have been wrong, since everything i stated is absolutely true, and of course no one can deny this. If you could study ancient slavic language and ancient greek, you would be struck, as to how two nations phenomenally 3000 km away, in an era when traveling was done on foot, had so much in common regarding language/habits/style/music. (hint: listen to some music from Zadar/Posavina(Brcko) and Crete island, and tell me what you think). Also, regions such as the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal have more non-European blood(except few isolated pockets), its a fact. re-read my post about certificates, reference implementations, etc... and tell me who decides who is european and who is not. "Europe" is such an hazy and fuzzy term anyways. PS provided you dont have in your mind some kind of a reference model of a super tall-blonde germano-slav which could explain your whole stance on the matter and the terms you like to use: "non-european", "gypsy", etc... PS2 Taking the writings of Procopios (the personal historian of Justinian) for granted, is like someone after 1000 years to try to learn history by studying the programs of CNN/BBC.
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 22, 2010 14:49:10 GMT -5
Anyway regarding music:
I'd like to hear your theory.
Hint: Crete was the least slavicized place of Greece, and of course far away from the slav strongholds in Greece.
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Post by ulf on Oct 22, 2010 15:50:55 GMT -5
i have nothing against being wrong, but in this specific passage above it is absolutely impossible to have been wrong, since everything i stated is absolutely true, and of course no one can deny this. If you could study ancient slavic language and ancient greek, you would be struck, as to how two nations phenomenally 3000 km away, in an era when traveling was done on foot, had so much in common regarding language/habits/style/music. (hint: listen to some music from Zadar/Posavina(Brcko) and Crete island, and tell me what you think). Also, regions such as the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal have more non-European blood(except few isolated pockets), its a fact. re-read my post about certificates, reference implementations, etc... and tell me who decides who is european and who is not. "Europe" is such an hazy and fuzzy term anyways. ok, so there were migrations in both South and North Europe, but for South at least we have it documented. For example, surely some dark Italian from south can't pass for German even if he raised as in German tradition, values etc. Not to mention the looks. What you are trying to prove me here is just not true Exactly, I don't have a blond Slav image, but you gotta know that Sorbs have Germanic mix and thus they have different look. I don't get you...I gave you some genetic studies - you denied; I gave you writing of some historians - and again you deny...So my question is what kind of proof would be good for you, if any? If you want some archaic Slavic sources about Slavs, then the most earliest is from 11th century done by Nestor the Chronicler
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