Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Nov 18, 2010 7:57:26 GMT -5
I don't understand your comment. In the initial stages of the IMRO, when it was still only fighting the Turks (or rather the Ottomans) there were Albanians, Greeks, Armenians, amongst other minorities that took part in some IMRO missions against the Ottomans. There were also some Turks who fought against the Ottomans as they were displeased with the Ottoman administration of the region. Are the pictures of the Turk and the Greek you posted such cases? The guy in the middle looks like an Aborigine from Oceania... What cases? The Turk must be an Arap and the Greek lady must be simply a Greek lady... Greek minority? Where in Macedonia? If you falsely call Macedonia the area from Olympos to Tetovo Macedonia then yes, so it would be if we call Macedonia the area from Olympos to Dunabe.... But if we see what was going on in the natural Macedonia, from Olympos to as far as Pelagonia, then Greeks were the majority, especially after the Ottomans were exchanged. And we all know what those komitadjis were doing...
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 18, 2010 13:54:21 GMT -5
Dusanov Zakonik!? This is a Serbian source friend, or did you not already know that?
Where did I say “all” sources!? I said ‘pretty much all sources’. I’ve broken it down for you people many times. About 95% of ALL independent sources state that Macedonians are Bulgarians, the remaining 5% are split between them being Serbs or some sort of unique group of Slavs different from both Bulgarians and Serbs. So yes, that’s pretty much all independent sources.. and there are some pre-propaganda Serbian sources that agree on the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia as well.
I’ve stated this many times before, if you almighty Serbs want to exchange source for source I’d be more than happy to do so. Though, your supply will get exhausted pretty quickly no doubt. And the most pathetic thing of all is that your “sources” only show that there was a Serb presence in Macedonia, but they never really discuss the identity of Macedonia and Macedonians as a whole as it/them being Serbian.
HAhahahhaha WOW, seriously, this is word for word Pazar’s statements from over a year ago. Anyhow, how do you explain that about 95% of sources have come to the same conclusions? How do you explain that Ottoman, Italian, Austrian, German, American, British, French, Greek, and Russian sources come to the same conclusions? How do you explain that there are Serbian sources that have come to the same conclusions, were they unable to tell a Serb from a Bulgarian as well? Or wait, could it be that they were actually recording the truth before their Serbian wide “let’s assimilate the Mecedono-Bulgarians” agenda came into effect?
Man oh man are you lacking on the matter.. it’s really becoming clear to me that you know very little of the history of Macedonia. First of all, yes, the Greeks were using their church to assimilate many of the people in Macedonia; mostly Bulgarians. The Bulgarian Exarchate was established to counter the Greek Patriarchate. During the Ottoman Empire many Bulgarians identified as Greeks because of the Patriarchate. Near the end of the Ottoman Empire, the activities of the Greek Patriarchate in Macedonia intensified and there were many people who identified as “ethnic” Greeks.. however, they didn’t even speak Greek. An others only spoke it in public, while speaking Bulgarian in their homes to their families.
And he’s not talking about the Greek population as a whole; he’s mainly referring to the ‘Greek’ population of Vardar Macedonia.
Yet about 95% of sources came to the same conclusions he did. This includes, as I’ve already mentioned, Russian, Ottoman, Greek, German, British, French, Italian, Austrian, and even early Serbian sources. Do try to explain this phenomenon to me, please put some effort into that. Pazar’s explanation is that Bulgaria, by using the Bulgarian Exarchate, was able to “fool” the world.. he’s saying that Bulgaria (even though at time it was quite impoverished, and not even seen on the map of Europe) was able to sway the opinion of all the world’s superpowers. And some of those countries were allies of Serbia. Hell, one of those countries was Serbia itself.
You are correct, I’m Bulgarian. By faith I’m a Bulgarian Orthodox Christian. However, aside from my own birthday on occasion, I don’t really celebrate any Bulgarian holidays. I don’t even think I celebrate Christmas as it’s meant to be celebrated. Who knows, maybe that’s because I’ve grown up in Canada. Though, as I said, from what I know Slava is not exclusively Serbian.
Pfff, of course you are not. The only thing you can do is COPY/PASTE the exact same 4-5 out of context quotes from books you’ve never read. And what happened with the IMRO discussions you were promising? I thought you were going to tell me all about the IMRO? I’m still waiting on that one.
Gyrro, my own opinion is irrelevant. The opinion of everyone else here is also irrelevant. What’s important is what the actual scholars, or the experts on the matter, have concluded. Their opinions are what counts, and for the most part (and this is an understatement) they all concur that the vast majority of Macedonians identified as Bulgarians until recently.
He can look like an alien for all I care. The important thing is that the pictures are of Macedonian patriots, and even today, many of these people are celebrated as such in both the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria; however, at the time these Macedonians lived, they all identified as Bulgarians.
Relax, no one is talking about ancient Macedonia or claiming it. The Greeks were definitely a minority in Vardar Macedonia. Aegean Macedonia, was populated by a mixed population, however there were parts where the Bulgarians were a majority. Though as you already stated, after the population exchanges occurred, the Greeks became the majority.
What they were doing was defending their own land the rights and freedoms of their people against the occupational forces of Turks, Serbs, and Greeks alike.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 18, 2010 15:09:14 GMT -5
So are you, as a Bulgarian, saying that you celebrate Slava? Eastern Serbs in Bulgaria (sopski tribe) used to celebrate slava and vidovdan. The bulgarian ruling elite (always) afraid of letting minorities to express themselves forbid the practice of such traditions. However, it is funny how this miserable snake Asen, changes skin according to the given situation : "PS. Slava is not isolated to Serbs alone." In some other context, we could use identical logic to prove that a certain population is Bulgarian. He is disgusting. Kosovo gypsies celebrate slava? ARE THEY SERBIAN TOO? If you claim depends on some custom (easily aquired from neighbouring serbs) and not on language, history and culture, its useless to have any discussion.
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Post by terroreign on Nov 19, 2010 13:46:30 GMT -5
^Gypsies do not practice Slava, if so they're at least mixed.
That's funny to imagine though lol
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Post by ulf on Nov 19, 2010 14:43:26 GMT -5
I always had sympathy for the VMRO fighters of Macedonia, and despite if you hate Bulgarians or not, you got to have respect as these guys often fought against all odds and in not few occasions all died for their goal.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 19, 2010 15:10:01 GMT -5
Yeah those guys were some tough bastards. As far as I've read, they had very little regard for their own lives and gave everything for the cause. I've also read that the casualties they suffered didn't affect the spirit of the general population and there were always more volunteers willing to join.
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Post by tsompanos on Nov 22, 2010 5:20:35 GMT -5
lol @ greeks where a minority in macedonia, maybe from the maps you bulgarians pull out of your asses they where but the greeks that kicked out the bulgarians where all native the greek army barely did anything in macedonia and i got to say its only funny when you pull out maps sometimes showing bulgarians beeing majority haha in villages and towns i know 100% where greek oh and to be fair yeah some of them might even have spoken bulgarian but if you asked them back them they would say there greek like kapetan kottas i just took kottas as example because in reality he actually was bulgarian but he realised what snakes bulgarians really where
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 22, 2010 11:11:46 GMT -5
Once more, the maps we post are from INTERNATIONAL sources that would be considered independent. These are NOT Bulgarian sources.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Nov 22, 2010 12:19:20 GMT -5
Once more, the maps we post are from INTERNATIONAL sources that would be considered independent. These are NOT Bulgarian sources. Presenting percentages about ethnic groups in "Macedonia" are totally useless and misleading...what connection could places like Tetovo and Olympos have? Its like presenting statistics about the population of Bulgaria-Kosovo-Moldova-Cyprous...all together...you can't get anything from this...
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 22, 2010 14:37:09 GMT -5
The maps are an illustration of the majority population within a given area within a given time period. That's all.
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