Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 22, 2010 6:32:22 GMT -5
^^^ It is very tricky to do such assumptions without studying the history of Greece. Example : Everyone naive could conclude that we modern Epirots are the descendants of ancient epirots, right? (who were a tribe very close to the makedonians, dorian speakers, etc...) In most books among the ocean of info and chronologies, one can find one liners hidden somewhere with the content : "at 146 BC Romans devastated Epiros (who were in alliance with the makedonians) and took about 250,000 slaves to italy....." Modern epiros has about 300,000 ppl.... There are big chances that modern Epirots have nothing to do with ancient Epirots and it is very much probable that modern makedonians (greek speakers, vlah speakers, slav speakers) do not have anything to do with ancient makedonians. PS Pontians from Asia Minor, have more chances of being connected with ancient makedonians than the old locals. yes and after Romans took all that slaves captives from Epiros established there Etruscans and Gauls and gave them CDs like "Learn Greek, in the Epirote way, easy and fun", "Prrrrr, hej hej...learn how to talk to goats in the Greek Epirotan way" etc etc and thats why in the medieval period people there spoke Greek.. ;D malaka...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 22, 2010 10:01:20 GMT -5
Animal, your idiotic explanations is not my problem. I just to interpret facts. not delusional fiction like the one you described.
If, Epirotans were the same with the Ancient ones, they would know where exactly the Dodoni theater is and they would maintain it properly. However, not only the stadium and theater were completely forgotten, but, after the restoration, the locals seemed to come in contact with smth completely new.
plain fact albanian....
BTW, i can hardly imagine the Epirotan population of 146 BC to be any larger than 250,000.
Now, who are we? Who are you the peloponesians?
You gotta try harder albanian to find the truth.
When you find it you will have become Greek again.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 22, 2010 12:36:39 GMT -5
BTW, i can hardly imagine the Epirotan population of 146 BC to be any larger than 250,000. has it ever passed from your mind( ;D) that most numbers quoted by ancient authors are usually an exageration... 250.000 Epirotes in Rome would make Rome a Yiannena, Argyrokastro looking place... ;D ;D with fat short bald Epirotes playing the clarino and talking about money... while the lamb is turning in its souvla...
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Dec 24, 2010 19:20:31 GMT -5
Other sources : (pre-DAI) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_MonemvasiaMiracles of St Demetrius I Miracles of St Demetrius II The siege of Thesaloniki is very informative about Sagudates, Vojnici, Dragocevci, etc... (Serbian tribes), many references to women fighting, first accounts of migrations of slav families, in the the greek penisula, etc... The Dragovits were not Serbs, unless slavs stem from Serbs. The Byzantines note two Dragovits, one in Bulgaria and one in Macedonia. Both obviously related, but split in their migrations. In Bulgaria, next to Dragovits are the Severians. Both these tribes come from east slav territory. Dregovits from Belarus and Severians from Ukraine, and adjacent to eachtother. So Dragovits were more similar to Antes which Bulgarians absorbed. Serbs, Croats and Abordites come west Slav territory, see the map to find identical names north of Danube.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 25, 2010 1:36:20 GMT -5
^^^ Facts:
a) Antes are seen last time 534 AD. b) "Drugubites" are mentioned for the very first time in "Miracles of St. Dimitrios II" and to my knowledge nothing "bulgarian" and antes-related is mentioned about them, but only that they came from the vicinity of Thesaloniki. (aka solun).
C) There are two theories (conflicting with each other) : That Slavs stem from Serbs (deretic) , and an other one that Serbs was formed IN the balkans (which i believe).
D) the ekavica speech of western bulgars should trigger more investigation on the matter (for the ones who seek smth more than cliches)
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 25, 2010 1:47:44 GMT -5
The "ΔΡΟΥΓΟΥΒΙΤΕΣ" are also mentioned in 9/18 of DAI, as being (just) tributaries to the Russians. I cannot assume that they were speaking "Yakavica" or anything similar and sound enough to tag them as (future) Bulgarians.
We have two problems for this approach : a) It is hypothetical and arbitrary b) The point that Bulgars would slavicize them selves later after 800 AD pose another problem in this approach
The serbian version would pose only problem a).
Please feel free to add/correct.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 25, 2010 8:06:18 GMT -5
^ Pyrro, l cannot believe some here are saying BS like this:
"So Dragovits were more similar to Antes which Bulgarians absorbed."
First of all their slavic name is Dragovichi, not Dragovits. Secondly, the BuLgarski Turks arrive in the LATE 7TH century at modern Pliska (Northern BuLgarska), serbian slavs, a related tribe to the Dragovichi, arrived 150 years before these Turks and mingled with the Dragovichi, Brsjachi, Timochani, Branicevichi etc....
Porphyrogenitus states that serbs without any opposition came to Thessaloniki and settled in a district that was to be called 'ta Serblia'.
J.Mikotcy states that the serbs spread *FIRST OVER ANCIENT MACEDONIA*, THEN INTO ILLYRIA!.
Pyrro, how many times do we tell these people, but they keep on persisting with everything as Bu-L-garski Turkish!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 25, 2010 8:14:50 GMT -5
Pyrro, did you notice the embarresment known as Ioan spewing the Kuber garbage, again!. IOAN: There is no Turkish blood in the veins of Vardarians, get that in your thick wooden head!. Once more for the nth time: Hugo Grothe states that as late as the NINTH CENTURY (850AD and UP) BuLgarski inroads into unconquered Slav territories "WERE UNDOUBTEDLY RAIDS CARRIED OUT BY MARAUDERS, WHICH COULD HARDLY LEFT ANY ETHNIC TRACES ON THESE TERRITORIES". PS DO YOU UNDERSTAND IOAN WHAT I WROTE?
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Dec 25, 2010 8:48:52 GMT -5
no, because what you post is 1) just oppinion of Grothe, not fact known from a source from that time; 2) on the other hand the settlement of Kuber Bulgars in central Macedonia is extensively described in the Miracles of St Demetrius, which indeed is a source from that time. if you cite truthfully his oppinion (which I doubt) "as late as the NINTH CENTURY (850AD and UP) BuLgarski inroads into unconquered Slav territories "WERE UNDOUBTEDLY RAIDS CARRIED OUT BY MARAUDERS, WHICH COULD HARDLY LEFT ANY ETHNIC TRACES ON THESE TERRITORIES", it means that after that date the bulgars left their ethnic traces in Macedonia, because at this time Macedonia was officially included in Bulgaria and became inseparate part of the state just in time for the formation of the Bulgarian ethnicity. So I m fine with the his interpretation because it doesnt exclude Bulgar thraces in the most important time - after 850 when the ethnicity emerged on the historic scene.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 25, 2010 9:52:34 GMT -5
^ Pyrro, l cannot believe some here are saying BS like this: "So Dragovits were more similar to Antes which Bulgarians absorbed." Oopss Novi, i hadn't really noticed the idiocy in the above statement. More *similar* to a dead slavic tribe, a portion of whom the not yet slavic bulgars would absorb after 200 years. TOTAL RETROSPECTIVE RECURSIVE RELATIONAL LUNACY!
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Dec 25, 2010 23:34:31 GMT -5
500 AD 600 AD 700AD From the maps, including the ones previously posted, it is quite obvious that many tribes such as Moravians, came from Moraves(Czech rep.), Abodrites from Obodrites(north Germany), Serbs from Sorbs on the German-Czech-Polish border, Croats from Croats in southern Poland. These people came from adjacent areas, so they were related and eventually formed to Serbian-Croatian people. Dragovites obviously come from Dregoviches in BELARUSSIA, thus cannot derive from Serbians. The Drougoubitai, also Drogobitai or Dragobitai (Greek: Äñï[õ]ãï[õ]âῖôáé/Äñáãïâῖôáé)[1], were a South Slavic group (Sclaveni) who settled in the Balkans in the 7th century. Two distinct branches are mentioned in the sources, one living in medieval Macedonia to the north and east of Thessalonica and around Veroia (in modern Greece), while the other lived in Thrace, around Philippopolis (modern Plovdiv in Bulgaria).The 7th-century Miracles of St Demetrius, which chronicle the Slavic invasions and settlement in the Balkans, list the first branch of the Drougoubitai along with four other Sclaveni tribes living in the vicinity of Thessalonica. According to the Miracles, they were led by kings, and were tributary allies to the Byzantines.[2] The Miracles also record their participation in two unsuccessful attacks by Sclaveni coalitions on Thessalonica in 617/618 and 677.[3] By 879, a bishopric of Drougoubiteia (Äñïõãïõâéôåßá), suffragan to Thessalonica, had been established. N. Oikonomides has suggested that at about the same time, the tribe was placed under a military governor with the title of strategos. In the late 10th and 11th centuries, Drougoubiteia is attested as being united with the themes of Thessalonica and Strymon into a single province.[4][5] In the early 10th century, John Kaminiates speaks of the Drougoubitai as living around Veroia, while in the 13th century, Demetrios Chomatenos mentions them as "ruling" all the land from Veroia up to Skopje.[6] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drougoubitai
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Dec 26, 2010 1:15:55 GMT -5
Tnx Babylon, interesting info... So they were from the eastern slavic group and were settle in both modernday Bulgaria and Macedonia.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 26, 2010 1:41:05 GMT -5
Babylon bro,
you cant expect us (me,Novi) to have worked our asses off reading books, to stick some wikifabrica page and some nice maps designed in year 2010 into our face.
pls show some respect man.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 26, 2010 5:24:27 GMT -5
The arbitrary mixing of Drag(=dear, beloved) and Drug (=next, friend) is also laughable.
Also, a source about the "mysterious" belarussian tribe of "DREGOVITS" would also be welcome. ;D
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 26, 2010 5:26:24 GMT -5
Do we smell a pro-bulgo stance here by Babylon or is it my impression ?
loads of arbitrary assumptions, invention of new correlations, retrospective analysis of recursively deterministically predictive history, invention of new tribes : e.g. "DREGOVITS", what the hell is going on around here?
Babylon, have you ever done any studies on the greek Slavic toponyms?
Over 90% (at least Epirus, Peloponese, south Greece) they show rather YUGOSLAV (meaning Bosnian-Stokavica Croatian-Serbian) affinity rather than Bulgarian.
I can confront any one wants some kind of a serious competition on this matter.
(excluding Ioan the absolute moron who thinks that SMOCHEVO is closer to SMOKOVO than SMOKOVO itself, only to cry like a b1tch in the end that alright its ok as long as its not in Serbia proper LMAO)
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Dec 26, 2010 14:01:33 GMT -5
Dregovichs The Dregovichs (Belarusian: дрыгавічы, dryhavičy, [drɨɣavʲiˈtʂɨ]; Russian: дреговичи́, dregovichi; Ukrainian: дреговичі, drehovychi) were one of the tribal unions of Early East Slavs, and inhabited the territories down the stream of the Pripyat River and northern parts of the right-bank Dnieper river (more exact extents of the tribe's domain are still unknown). The name of the tribe probably derives from the Old Ruthenian word дрегва or дрягва (drehva, or dryahva, which means "swamp") because the Dregovichs used to live in the marshlands. The first known reference to Dregovichs is in the Primary Chronicle, where they are listed among the twelve nations. By the 12th century they were assimilated into the main East Slavic peoples. The chronicles do not tell historians much about the Dregovichs. We only know that they had their own princely rule in the city of Turov. In the 10th century, the lands of the Dregovichs became a part of Kievan Rus and later—the Turaw Principality. The northwestern part of the land of the Dregovichs became a part of the Polotsk Principality. The Dregovichs left some archaeological monuments of the 9th and 10th century along the Pripyat, such as the remnants of agricultural settlements and kurgans with incinerated bodies (unlike the kurgans of 11th–12th century with intact bones). There are sepulchral structures that look like small wooden houses with span roofs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_ChronicleDregovichs are not recorded by Byzantines but by Kievan Rus, while the dragovits are recorded by the Byzantines, which might explain the slight differential in the name, but I'm no linguist. However the name parallels between the various Slavic tribes in the south to those in the north cannot be a coincidence. Moravians are from Moraves, this would make Torlaks most similar to Serbs, cheer up.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Dec 26, 2010 14:07:46 GMT -5
Another tribe that migrated into the Balkans from the north. This one, a neighbor of the Dregovichs, settled in Bulgaria, and one branch in Banat. Severians. The Severians or Severyans or Siverians were a tribe or tribal union of early East Slavs occupying areas to the east of the middle Dnieper river around the rivers Desna, Sejm and Sula on the territory of the archaeological Romny culture. The Etymology of the name of Severians is controversial. Though it is similar to the Slavic word for "north" (s¨§ver), the Severians never were the northernmost tribe of Slavs. More probable is that the name is of an Iranian (the Sarmatian tribe of "Seuer", from Iranian "seu" = black) or Turkic origin (a part of the Huns). Alternatively, the name may be derived from a Proto-Slavic word for "family member", compare Serbs. The modern names are §³i§Ó§Ö§â§ñ§ß§Ú in the Ukrainian and §³§Ö§Ó§Ö§â§ñ§ß§Ö in the Russian. Their neighbours were the tribes of Viatich and Radimich in the north, and the Derevlian and Polian tribes in the west. The eastern and southern borders of the tribe's habitat were never permanent and would sometimes reach the upper reaches of the Seversky Donets. Their existence as a political unit can be proven for the 8th to 11th century and thought to be sprang from the Krivichi[citation needed]. They had to pay tribute to the Khazars in the 8th and 9th century, were annexed by Oleg of Novgorod to the Kiev state together with the Polans in the late 9th century, and participated in Oleg's campaign against Constantinople in 907. Finally they became part of the Grand Principality of Chernigov. The last reference to them stems from 1024. For subsequent history of the region, see Severia (whose name is derived from "Severians"). They are mentioned especially by Geographus Bavarus (9th century, "Zeriuani"), by Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos, by the khazar khagan Joseph (c. 960) and by the Primary Chronicle. The principal cities of the Severians were Chernigov (modern Chernihiv), Kursk, Novgorod-Seversky (modern Novhorod-Siverskyi) and others. Archaeologists also found numerous rural settlements of the 8th - 10th centuries, inhabited by the Severians, and burial mounds with cremated bodies. The Severians were mostly engaged in agriculture, cattle breeding and different handicrafts. Part of the Severians also migrated to the south-west and settled in the areas of the southern Pannonian plain (the Banat region) and southern Carpathians. The Severin region of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary situated in south-eastern Banat was named after Severians. Another branch of Severians also settled in the territory of present-day north-eastern Bulgaria. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeveriansI don't know why no one is digging up Byzantine sources, find out all the tribes that were mentioned and start comparing them with those recorded to the north.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 26, 2010 16:05:34 GMT -5
This whole plethora of tribes are irrelevant if the theory that "Serb" was the original name Slavs called themselves is accepted.
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Post by ulf on Dec 26, 2010 16:09:16 GMT -5
What I know for Berziti(south/central-western part of Macedonia) is that they came from Bautzen - Erfurt - Krakow - Prague circle, which makes them "closest" to the Serbs
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Post by ulf on Dec 26, 2010 16:10:14 GMT -5
dont know for others, but they probably has less to do with Serbs And now that you mentioned Belarus, check this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brest,_Belarus (founded by Berezites) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosova,_Belarus (old name Kossovo, thus the name of Serbian Kosovo were given by these people) Both of the two places are found by part of Berziti tribe that didn't inhabited Balkan but Belarus
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