Real Illyrian(6/1/03 12:17 pm)
Dijedon (Pseudon)
" Ellinida, you base your "arguments" on architecture and myths!? "------
As opposed to Albanians who base their "facts" on some "concrete" facts such as what Britanica states "Albanians are believed to..."
"This is not enough. Let me remember you that the romans adopted greek architecture and mythology. Does this make them greek? "------
Romans in their early history recorded only in Greek while Latin was used later on. As you stated they adopted (in modified form) Greek religion and culture in general. They can be called (at least) semi-Hellenic people.
" No! They didnt spoke ´greek, they spoke latin and they werent greeks but a mixture between italics and etruscans!"---
Wrong again Pseudian. Early Romans spoke Greeks while later on Romans also had a tremendous influx of Greek blood from Magna Graecia in southern Greece which was believed to have had even a bigger number of Greeks than Greece itself. Etruscans appear closely related (racially and culturally) to Minoans (the base from which later Greek civilization and most of Greek race in Greece was influenced by).
"The dardanians in the "Iliad" of Homer are mentioned as the allies of the trojans whom according to the greeks were "barbarians" i.e non-greeks!"----
Barbarians doesn't necessarily imply not Greek just of more primitive matter or behaving in undesirable fashion. The fact that Athens addressed Spartans as barbarians doesn't imply for one-second that the latter were not Hellenic. Dardanians were Phrygians (one of the early Greek nations) while Dardania (today's Kosovo) was the among the starting points from which Phrygians moved from towards Illyria (southern Illyrian nations such as Daorson, Ardidei and certainly Encheleans were more than likely Phrygian and this would explain why they spoke Greek and "adopted greek civilization and greek language so fast even without any greek force at the time to assimilate them), Paeonia (another Phrygians region), Macedonia and later on to Thrace and western Anatolia.
The racial similarity between Dorian tribe of Sfakia and Montenegro can be now explained with Phrygian elements within invading Dorians since it is know that Dorians sometimes incomporated Phrygians within their movements as in the bellow link
life.bio.sunysb.edu/ee/msr/Ethno/ethno4.html"The ancient greek word "barbaros" meant "those whom do not speak greek" i.e non-Greeks. The greeks continuously referred to the illyrians as barbarians. Everyone agrees on the fact that the illyrians weren't Greeks! "According to my Langenscheidt's dictionary of ancient Greek language (this is the official explanation);
barbarous, non Greek, foreign, outlandish;
rude, uncivilized, cruel.
Thus the term barbarian has two meanings and the second half would explain why Athenians would have called Sparta Barbarians EVEN though they were Greek.
This is info summary from the article written by Enver Imamovic.
referring to
www.iis.unsa.ba/prilozi/pii_30.htm llyrians weren't a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of unrelated (linguistically and culturally) regions and nations. Thus the (greek) name Illyria denotes ONLY a geographical location inside which southern or Phrygian Illyrian nations have no unity with northern Illyrian nations such as Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians or Iapodes for example.In the South Illyria there were Phrygian derivatives of tribes such as Daorson, Encheleans (Montenegro, North Albania) and the mightiest of all late Ardidei (they were the first to be called also an Illyrian kindgom by Romans, kind Argon, center today's Montenegro).
More to the South you have (fully Hellenic) Chaones, Molossians. (the fact that Phrygian or southern Illyria as only Hellenic speaking can be concluded that EVEN THOUGH they had a written language, as it can be attested to the fact they have Greek inscriptions on their money for example they NEVER WROTE anything on a "Illyrian language").
All of them were Greek speaking and practically as Ellinida wrote can be classified as part of the Hellenistic world.
Anyone who understands Serbo-Croatian after reading Enver Imamovic's article will conclude this!!
Info on Enver Imamovic
linkOnly existing records of those people are in Hellenic (example their money inscriptions as other inscriptions as well as the known terminology that they were using even their kings about their country names, examples
"koinon ton Paionon", "basileus ton Illyrion", etc).
Southern Illyria was, at the time of Roman expansion, relatively advanced (do to the heavy Greek influence according to to Enver Imamovic's article) especially when compared to much more primitive Dalmatians and Pannonians and northern "Illyrian" tribes in general.
Contrary to them Dalmatians, Pannonians were primitive tribal people. This part of Illyria has remains of language associated with it (Venetic and Messapic), both of which are classified as Italic languages.
Also the Greek culture was almost only present in the Greek colonies like Apollonia (Pojan), Epidamnos (Durrës), Byllis etc.
"In the villages and other cities the culture was aboriginal. "
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According to the article it was fully Hellenic-like if not outright Hellenic which is especially visible with regions close to Greece but with even cities like Daorson (north of Montenegro, in delta of Neretva river). Phrygian Illyrian kings (according to the article) maintained close contacts with Greece and its cities (especially Athens, their ally against Macedonia) but also with others, imported many laborers from Greece. Daorson (today's city of Stolac in southern Hercegovina) is even by site of (city of) Stolac called hellenised (although there is no records of who would have hellenized them and the option that southern Illyria is in fact Phrygian populated mainly is ignored)
"Ošanjicka gradina je bila akropola glavnog mjesta Daorsa, koji su bili helenizirano ilirsko pleme"
www.stolac.ba/daorson.htm"Just because greeks have adopted some albanian dances like the "tsamiko" and the albanian drss "Fustanella" doesnt mean Greece is albanian!? "
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Fusta is a Greek word for skirt and
Greek language, history and even VERY PRESENCE WITHIN WESTERN BALKANS VASTLY SUPERSEDES that of Albanians which EXTREMELY D.W.A.R.F.S. in comparison.
Not to mention that Albanian nation is more than OBVIOUS an INTRUDER in this region (at least its identity and language) which has been ONLY Greek speaking for at least 2 if not 3 millennium (2000-1000BC - 1500AD) when Turks () brought in Albanians from Romania. shpata
thats what i thought to. than i actually clicked on the link and saw the site. it was in serbian!!!!!!!! you tirane know serbian so you tell us what was the authors purpose of writing such article.The site is written by a Bosnian Muslim with no political agenda (contrary to Albanian sites which in every second sentence input "We are direct descendants..", "Albanians are direct ...,," etc.)
personally i think he is another addmin or "real illyrian" trying to prove dorians=illyrians BECAUSE Paranoia at its best. Here is where you can find some info on the writer
link1)on ellinidas link it says "words searched google for daorsi spoke greek" Daorson were speaking Greek and fully lived as Greeks lived at the time.
2)the article seems to mentions dorians awfully allot (in serbian of course).I don't recall any mention of Dorians (unless it was very sporadic).
" ALSO Enhelian were a phrygian tribe not illyrian. they became illyrinised after the great migrations of the 1200B(sea peoples). they were left over phrygians that became illyrians so at the time of the trojan war they were not illyrians thus no proof the greek influence on illyrians in the begining of the first millenium BC. same thing with paeonians, they were thracians, and never became illyrian."There is no such thing as being Illyrianized as there is no Ilyrians or Illyrian language since Illyria was not a body of uniform people but conglomeration of unrelated people where south and north have very little if anything in common. This propaganda crap has to stop.
Dijedon
Tirane: It is you whom failed to understand. This article is about the "illyrian-greek" connections! Our beloved "Real Illyrian" or more correct "Real Slav" has tried to link the illyrians to the greek. Well everything points ut to that the illyrians were to the greeks "barbarians" i.e non-greeks! Real Slav: you cannot claim beeing the descendants on the simple claim that you´ve absorbed alot of illyrian blood. Then you´re just as much turkish as illyrian!My dear Pseudon, everything points out that there is no Illyrians for they were not a uniform body, south Illyria is a Phrygian/Brygian territory thus fully Greek in nature. Also name Illyria is of Greek origin and given by Greeks so by no stretch of imagination can you claim it as yours only you can claim Shqiperia.
The Upper Palaeolithic race of the borreby/afalou has left little traces among modern balkanian nations, thus beeing an evidence itself that this type was uncommon, or at least in the minority in ancient Illyria.Yet numerous enough to make the link between Montenegrins and Sfakia thus about Montenegrins (Slavized "Illyrians" or Phrygians) and Dorians.
AFTER AN ARTICLE LIKE THIS (BY ENVER I. AND WITH ALL THE REFERENCES) ALBANIAN PROPAGANDA IS OFFICIALLY D. E. A. D. AND TRUTH CAN COME TO LIGHT!