Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 26, 2011 16:30:08 GMT -5
tata, is used in Greek too. In ancient and modern. Not as dad, but daddy... this is from Liddell & Scott Lexicon of ancient Greek. I'm pretty sure that pyrrscko will say that its just a european antislavic conspiracy led by Liddell and Scott...
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 16:42:02 GMT -5
^It's just Indo-European commonality, but who did the Turks come in contact with first, Slavs or Greeks? That's the question.
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 26, 2011 16:42:55 GMT -5
Highly improbable. Even if a tiny amount of Serbs remained in Greece, since they were Slavs they would have been Bulgarized (or "taken on Eastern Slav charachteristics" for all you sensitive pus.s.i.e.s) instead of assimilating into Greeks. And where in the hell do you ever see any Muslim Ottomans ever assimilating into Orthodox Greeks??? The clearest possibility here is that you and pyrros are two Serboholic budallas.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 26, 2011 16:48:45 GMT -5
^It's just Indo-European commonality, but who did the Turks come in contact with first, Slavs or Greeks? That's the question. the word is too simple, and almost infantile, so maybe its just a coincidence existence of a similar word in turkish. Just like mom is ana(or ane) dad is ata.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 16:51:01 GMT -5
Plis Serbs were present there during Dusan's rule, after that it was never under the Bulgarians so why would they be "Bulgarized".
Many muslim Greeks after the fall of the Ottomans converted into Christians, ask any Greek here. Same thing occured with Serbs, thus you have "Hadzic" "Babovic" "Demirovic" "Alibabic" amongst orthodox Serbs.
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 26, 2011 16:57:52 GMT -5
I'm under the impression that most Greeks with Ottoman surnames where never even Muslim. Idk about Serbs, but a lot of Catholics Albs had Muslim first names but were never Muslim and today some still have Muslim last names.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 16:59:08 GMT -5
^It's just Indo-European commonality, but who did the Turks come in contact with first, Slavs or Greeks? That's the question. the word is too simple, and almost infantile, so maybe its just a coincidence existence of a similar word in turkish. Just like mom is ana(or ane) dad is ata. Thats true, in Linguistics one of the rules is that infantile words like Mom and Dad are similar throughout all languages. But just for funzies: "father" in Turkmen: "Kaka", "father" in Bologonese "Peder" ;D
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 26, 2011 17:02:24 GMT -5
If they did remain then they almost certainly were Bulgarized since all the Slavs of Greece were and are Bulgrian, Aegean Macedonian or whatever they hell you wanna call it. The point is no Serbs were found there in the 19-20th centuries, only eastern South-Slavs.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 17:04:22 GMT -5
^They wouldn't be Bulgarians today if they were all Grecofied now would they
Serbs were always closer to Greeks than the Bulgarians were anyways.
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 26, 2011 17:16:40 GMT -5
Right, they were more likely to drop their Slavic identity altogether instead of assimilating into the numerous Bulgarian Slavs. Just like Abdic was likely to be a Muslim Serb last name in Greece.
Now start searching Ottoman defters from Rumelia for a Fikret Abdic.
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Jan 26, 2011 18:47:45 GMT -5
Klisura is latin word that was accepted by BULGARIANS, Serbs and Greeks. I ve proven this in an old tread, but facts matter little to you I guess. Byzantine greek kleisoura was derived from latin clausura but the klei- was probably influenced by greek kleio (close); pyrros was wrong about the ultimate origin of the word but he detected the influence of the greek verb. So, the slavic word klisura must have come directly from greek rather than latin, as the passage you quoted also says.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 19:15:15 GMT -5
Right, they were more likely to drop their Slavic identity altogether instead of assimilating into the numerous Bulgarian Slavs. Just like Abdic was likely to be a Muslim Serb last name in Greece. Now start searching Ottoman defters from Rumelia for a Fikret Abdic. There was no "Slavic identity" to begin with, you have nobody in the world or throughout history calling themselves "Slavs". I think the FYROM fiasco highlights this.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 19:19:10 GMT -5
"Babo" is used solely by Bosnians to designate father. Proper Serbian word is "otac" or "tata" both proto-slavic of origin Tata is of Turkic origin almost certainly. The caucus Turkics use the word Ata or some derivative of it for 'dad.' It is also common in Turkey just as Baba is. Azeri : Ata , Ataciq think of our language for Tata and Otac. Turkmen : Kaka , Ata ( grandfather)Turkish : Baba , Ata , PederChuvash: Atte Tatar : Ata , Baba , AbaKazakh : AtaI can actually go on and on with all the Turkic languages but why bother. I think the evidence is in. It just so happens that nearly all the existing Turkic languages have Ata and Baba as their primary words to denote 'father' Balkan Slavs use 'Tata' most frequently in common speech although 'Otac' is still reserved formally. Baba is used by Balkan Slav speaking Muslims as well as some local dialects. The influence is all but apparent. Lets not lie to ourselves just to please some stupid agenda. ( And yes I am aware of the use of 'Caca - Chacha' 'Chale' ' Pape' but those are not use nearly as frequently as Tata or Baba ( among the Muslims) in common everyday speech. Maybe this is why a lot of Bosnians and Croatians use 'Baka' more than 'baba' ( Just speculation). If I heard 'Babo' I wouldn't think 'grandma' if I were among a bunch of Bosniaks.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 19:24:53 GMT -5
Plis Serbs were present there during Dusan's rule, after that it was never under the Bulgarians so why would they be "Bulgarized". Many muslim Greeks after the fall of the Ottomans converted into Christians, ask any Greek here. Same thing occured with Serbs, thus you have "Hadzic" "Babovic" "Demirovic" "Alibabic" amongst orthodox Serbs. Dusan's state may have expanded Serbia to the Aegean for a few decades but that =/= Serbs settled Greece at that time. Dusan called himself the ruler of the Greeks too. I'm not saying you're wrong but sounds like speculation to me. The Bulgarian Empire at one time stretched to Belgrade, does that mean that that area became a Bulgarian settlement?
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Jan 26, 2011 19:31:55 GMT -5
More than that actually, there was a time when Bulgaria and Croatia shared a border. All of Serbia was a Bulgarian province.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 19:41:52 GMT -5
radiate, read a couple posts up we talk about the Tata-Ata thing. It's nothing to base linguistics off of.
I dont know about the BG empire, but concerning Dusan's he had Serb rulers move to provinces and rule them. Along with these rulers came their Court and family-clan, who were all of course, Serbian.
Thus you have the Mrnjavcevic's who ruled the Macedonia region, Vukasin the ruler, came from Hercegovina, and brought with him his brothers, an entire Court and clan. The Kuci clan of Montenegro claims descent from Mrnjavcevic clan who purportedly fled Macedonia to Montenegro after the defeat at Maritsa.
All of the regions had the same set up, a Serb ruler his family and clan.
Now whether Serbs stayed or fled I can't say, all I can say is there was a population present during Dusan's rule.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 19:42:48 GMT -5
Ok fine , then how many words in the Turkish vocabulary are Slavic? I would bet pyrros' 10 euros that it's not very many. However , how many words in Croatian/Serbian vocabulary are Turkish in origin? Possibly thousands.
While Belarusian it is "Backa", Ukrainian "Batko", both of these languages use the colloquial "Tata".
These sound more foreign than the Turkic word for 'Tata' being 'Ata.' Furthermore Ata and Baba are a constant theme throughout all the Turkic languages denoting 'Tata' or 'Father.' Plus we have a completely logical and rational explanation on how the word was borrowed from Turkish ( i.e. Turkish rule for at least five centuries and the infusing of their culture in other aspects of our culture : Music , religion, art , craftsmanship , etc)
And "Tata" in Serbian is the colloquial form of "Otac", which is inarguably Slavic.
Ok , we're not talking about 'Otac' We're talking about the more common and informal 'Tata' and 'Baba' both of which seem to have non-Slavic roots.
Just for the record , it doesn't sound that common but Montenegro is a small place , who knows? I don't think its really disputed names of persons given to future surnames are overwhelmingly male in Slavic culture. Really, there is not reason to over analyze this.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 26, 2011 19:45:28 GMT -5
^It's just Indo-European commonality, but who did the Turks come in contact with first, Slavs or Greeks? That's the question. The common words in Turkish found for father are expressed in other Turkic languages just as commonly. Turkic penetration into Slavic vocabulary could have been via the Turkic peoples of the Caucus as well. However, in the case of the south Slavs , the vast majority of that influence was Turkish.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 19:47:12 GMT -5
Tata in Quechua (South Andes) Tatay in Tagalog (Philippines)
Turkish influence too? ;D
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Post by terroreign on Jan 26, 2011 19:50:09 GMT -5
^It's just Indo-European commonality, but who did the Turks come in contact with first, Slavs or Greeks? That's the question. The common words in Turkish found for father are expressed in other Turkic languages just as commonly. Turkic penetration into Slavic vocabulary could have been via the Turkic peoples of the Caucus as wellHowever, in the case of the south Slavs , the vast majority of that influence was Turkish. That's true, did you know that Knjige and Biser are of Turkic origin?
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