Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 18, 2011 10:38:21 GMT -5
As far as I know, the Serb population in Gordoservon has been estimated at about 30,000-50,000. 1st. Your original Turkic Bulgars reaching the balkans were even less than that. And secondly i hope you are not serious about drawing conclusions about populations from observing color densities on recently designed maps. Please Asen.... You see i refrain from insulting you, but i dont think i can hold on for ever...
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jan 18, 2011 10:57:25 GMT -5
This is false. Old communist propaganda used to claim that the ancient Bulgars numbered 10,000-15,000 and were assimilated by the more numerous Balkan Slavs. However, contemporary research has concluded that the number is significantly greater than that. The Bulgars that settled around the Volga are estimated at about 400,000. The Danube Bulgars are estimated at slightly less than the Volga Bulgars.
Pazar accepts this as a valid source, he posted it, I got it from him. The map is very clear. And honestly, I haven't seen any sources to dispute it. In fact, the sources I've read barely make any mention of Serbs in Macedonia.. past and present Serbs have NEVER been a majority in Macedonia. Serbs have never even come close to being a majority in Macedonia.
Please what? You are a pathetic clown bro, ain't nothing much to it.
Bro, don't worry about insulting me.. it takes quite a bit to do that. Next time you're in Bulgaria share your views with the locals, share them with those same locals that you think are "Serbs".. see what happens. Remember, don't hold back, tell them everything you write here.
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Post by ulf on Jan 18, 2011 12:36:35 GMT -5
asen, thats map from 7th century. God knows what happened until late 19th(period of uprisings in Ottoman Empire)
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jan 18, 2011 13:31:43 GMT -5
Ulf, you're right.. God probably knows exactly what happened. But, there're plenty of scholars, sources, and authors who have written about the region, the populations that lived there, and how they identified.
I've read a decent amount of authors from different nationalities, and I've never come across any source that mentions Serbs as a significant ethnic group in Macedonia. From the 7th century to the early 20th century, Serbs have always been documented as a minority in Macedonia.. and a relatively small minority at that.
There's only one single international source that I know of, which in the late 19th c. had concluded that Macedonians are actually Serbs and not Bulgarians.. however, the findings of this source are widely disputed and wouldn't be taken serious in academic circles. Actually, the only sources that I've seen in support of it are late Serbian ones as the early Serbian ones were firmly settled on the conclusion that Macedonians are in fact Bulgarians.
And of course, we have the odd three or four sources that are usually posted by Pazar, which merely demonstrate that there was a Serb presence in Macedonia.. but never discuss the overall character of the region, or the way the average person identified ethnically.
The sources are there, the author/scholars/travelers have spoken, their findings throughout the years (or centuries even) are well known, and there are plenty of other facts and physical evidences (churches, flags, pictures, primary documents etc.) that support their findings.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 18, 2011 18:08:49 GMT -5
asen, like ulf said - that map is about the population in the 7th century....migrations, wars and population exchanges have occured since then.
Again, I ask you, is there any evidence that specifically indicates the size of the Serbian population in Macedonia?
What I'm trying to get at, is that if there isn't then this topic is moot. Because you have no evidence to back up who the Serbs were in Macedonia, which makes the Bulgarian argument, no matter what source, biased in appearance if you catch my drift.
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 18, 2011 19:26:41 GMT -5
The fact they were not dense in any specific area would have made them easy targets for assimilation by a wide variety of ethnic groups.. most notably East Romans and Bulgarians, as well as other Slavic tribes present in the area. Had Romans kicked all the locals out and learned Greek? Who are those "East Romans"? ;D
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 18, 2011 19:40:54 GMT -5
"1st. Your original Turkic Bulgars reaching the balkans were even less than that. And secondly i hope you are not serious about drawing conclusions about populations from observing color densities on recently designed maps."
You see Pyrro, Asen is very selective on the map he chooses because he can use this to play with some ignorant serbs and say, "see, eastern torlak serbs arn't serbs, because the original german serbs didn't settle there." Its funny that the Morvaljani and Timochani never accepted the BuLgari (BuLgari are foreign) ruling empire because they felt Serbs were their Slavic kin, and integrated with them.
PS Poor Asen, the Serbs had settled right down the GUTS of vardar, 150 years before these mauraders (BuLgari) pillaged and looted the southern balkans. Again, there is nothing BuLgarski with vardar, l say this with infinity certainty ;D
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 19, 2011 0:36:26 GMT -5
eastern torlak serbs arn't serbs, because the original german serbs didn't settle there. the serbs were never german, they were iranian. the claim on torlak is based on some sources and mostly on their language. lies. Timochani rebelled against the Bulgarian empire and joined... THE FRANKISH EMPIRE (deffinately NOT slavic) and not the supposed "serbian state" which wont appear for some couple of CENTURIES. So they had nothing to integrate with to the west, except the Franks. 632- serbs settle on the Bolkans. 681 - Bulgars had their STATE officially recognized (serbs will have their state centuries later).
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Post by ulf on Jan 19, 2011 1:37:41 GMT -5
eastern torlak serbs arn't serbs, because the original german serbs didn't settle there. the serbs were never german, they were iranian. the claim on torlak is based on some sources and mostly on their language. Serbs weren't Iranian. You got this idea from some vague source. Only people that support the idea that you stand behind are Arsenije and Krivosanin. We're Slavs from Germany/Poland/Czech that settled Balkan, and normally absorbed some of the locals here. That's it.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 19, 2011 1:50:48 GMT -5
the serbs were never german, they were iranian. the claim on torlak is based on some sources and mostly on their language. Serbs weren't Iranian. You got this idea from some vague source. Only people that support the idea that you stand behind are Arsenije and Krivosanin. We're Slavs from Germany/Poland/Czech that settled Balkan, and normally absorbed some of the locals here. That's it. Most historians agree Old Serbs were Iranic...please don't fight history ulf
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 19, 2011 3:14:09 GMT -5
Serbs weren't Iranian. You got this idea from some vague source. Plinni the Elder is hardly a vague source. He is actually considered very reliable. The same conclusion (Serbs = Iranian) we find in greek/roman authors.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 19, 2011 3:21:53 GMT -5
PS Poor Asen, the Serbs had settled right down the GUTS of vardar, 150 years before these mauraders (BuLgari) pillaged and looted the southern balkans. Again, there is nothing BuLgarski with vardar, l say this with infinity certainty ;D Not only Vardar Novi. The tallest, strongest and highest monastery (which looks like a fortress) in Meteroa (Thessaly - central Greece) was built by Jovan Uros. You still see names like Dupjani, Babitsas, Nikolitsas, Plavos, in the area....
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 19, 2011 3:28:12 GMT -5
I guess Aziz had an operation, and now is the happy proud mother of genuine BULGAR!! enjoy!! PS MOROOON !!! did you solve the "average-joe-certificate" exercise? still struggling with it moron?? ha ha ha ha Even Patrinos found a simple solution... IDIOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 19, 2011 3:31:28 GMT -5
asen, like ulf said - that map is about the population in the 7th century....migrations, wars and population exchanges have occured since then. Again, I ask you, is there any evidence that specifically indicates the size of the Serbian population in Macedonia? What I'm trying to get at, is that if there isn't then this topic is moot. Because you have no evidence to back up who the Serbs were in Macedonia, which makes the Bulgarian argument, no matter what source, biased in appearance if you catch my drift. The question is also a matter of time. In a (rather long) period Serb domain reached down to southern Greece. I cannot see how Serbs could dominate in Greece and in Serbia but not in the middle (Makedonia). It just dont make any sense. And only complete rotten vegetables like Aziz the sodomite would accept such a lunacy. Skoplje was also the Serbian capital.
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Jan 19, 2011 8:53:30 GMT -5
The question is also a matter of time. In a (rather long) period Serb domain reached down to southern Greece. Yeah, no, that period was extremely short, actually.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 19, 2011 10:07:29 GMT -5
The 500 (i guess +1000 pre 1926) toponyms in Peloponese say another story. Those people were not under any Serb king, but they were practically 100% Serbs.
Does the name "Strelitsas" (the person who founded the great Cretan school of painting - the one who produced El Greco) say anything to you?
PS
So are you saying that Serbs were capable of building so many things in such a short period?
Your logic is self-contradictory by any view.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 19, 2011 10:17:20 GMT -5
Does the name "Strelitsas" (the person who founded the great Cretan school of painting - the one who produced El Greco) say anything to you? strelitsa means small arrow in Bulgarian, so this name is not typical Serbian or to put it mildly: it is as serbian as it is bulgarian.
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Jan 19, 2011 10:17:40 GMT -5
You're conflating various periods and phenomena in your mind. Vasmer found 400-something btw (and Slavs =/= Serbs). Not to mention that the study of surnames and toponyms is a bit more complex than "find slavic etymology, done". You should read Vasmer sometime and you should stop serbianizing everything while getting indignant about "Bulgarians bulgarizing everything".
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 19, 2011 10:33:11 GMT -5
i am not "conflating" anything body. I have done my own research on the issue. I am not waiting from no_vasmer or falmerayer or some other stupid phil-ellen to tell me about anything.
I have read all of Vasmer's work regarding toponyms, and i found serious holes in it. At least in Epiros, there are *many* Slavic-Serbian toponyms still in use, which are not included in his work. PS It was not 400, it was some 450 IIRC. (and it was written after the 1927 renamings)
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 19, 2011 10:39:15 GMT -5
Does the name "Strelitsas" (the person who founded the great Cretan school of painting - the one who produced El Greco) say anything to you? strelitsa means small arrow in Bulgarian, so this name is not typical Serbian or to put it mildly: it is as serbian as it is bulgarian. We already know that Bulgarian is a slav language. (It could be considered a dialect of Serbo-Croatian). But the issue is the name. Do you have any people with surname "Strelic" or "Strelica" in Bulgaria?
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