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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 25, 2011 13:31:35 GMT -5
i.e. almost all of Serbia's neighbors occupy some part of Serbia that actually isn't Serbia today and that they are all Serbs..  Bad analogy. More like Serbs were known as a people either running their own Serbian states not called Serbia (eg Rascia, Duklja, Montenegro, Bosnia at one time) or living in states not run by Serbs (eg Bulgarian Empire, Croatia, Bosnia at one time). Serbian ethnogenesis is not linked to statehood like many other ethnicities are. Are the Jews, Palestinians, Kurds not ethnicities because they do not have states? The Serbian name is used ethnically in many contexts eg language (Srpsci, Srpski), titles(King of Serbs - eg Stefan Dusan, Jovan Vladimir, Stefan Kotromanic), and simply as an ethnic name (eg Serbi, Serbski, Srbi) all outside the context of a Serbian named state! The Serbs had an independent church practically before their own state called Serbia. All this is testament to a strong ethnic consciousness. And certainly not as superficial as peoples who try to tie in identity simply with statehood - Bosniaks being the worst culprits of all though Croats do it a bit as well as can be seen in your analysis here and Croat claims of Serbs such as Orthodox Croats. Serbs do not think so much of their country/state so much as they do of their people which is why the word Srpstvo is used so much where others might use the name of their state. It makes ethnic identity more tangible. The nation state is so much more superficial in comparison to having this identity concept we have. |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2011 23:58:13 GMT -5
Byzantines called Serbs among other things as Σέρβλοι (Servloi/Serbloi). Now lets look at curious similarity  After antiquity: Greek language, myth, and metaphor - Google Books Result Margaret Alexiou - 2002 - Literary Criticism - 567 pages Page 99... one of his letters to Nikephoros Servlias as an example of how easily praise
... a rhetorical manner, I say that Servlias is descended from the Servilii ...
books.google.com/books?id=Dsa0OP8V3nUC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=Servlias+is+descended&source=bl&ots=0K6ocT0O3S&sig=E7FLsxZ3c0PfIQmpOhAEBu11kLk&hl=en&ei=0zxGTZvNMsWt8AaOp9SZAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Servlias%20is%20descended&f=falseData on Servi lia (compare to Σέρβλοι (Servloi/Serbloi)) Servilia (gens)
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The gens Servilia was a patrician family at Rome. The gens was celebrated during the early ages of the Republic, and the names of few gentes appear more frequently at this period in the consular Fasti. It continued to produce men of influence in the state down to the latest times of the Republic, and even in the imperial period. The first member of the gens who obtained the consulship was Publius Servilius Priscus Structus in 495 BC, and the last of the name who appears in the consular Fasti is Quintus Servilius Silanus, in AD 189, thus occupying a prominent position in the Roman state for nearly seven hundred years.
Like other Roman gentes, the Servilii of course had their own sacra; and they are said to have worshipped a triens, or copper coin, which is reported to have increased or diminished in size at various times, thus indicating the increase or diminution of the honors of the gens. Although the Servilii were originally patricians, in the later Republic there were also plebeian Servilii.[1][2][3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servilia_%28gens%29 |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 0:11:26 GMT -5
Hmmm... So Servilia was a patrician (original aristocratic families of Ancient Rome) Roman family clearly existent in Balkans as well as existent during the relevant time frame during which Serbs appeared and centuries later. Serbia was Moesia Superior which was loaded with Roman settlements and which produced numbers of Roman emperors. The name was spelled Servlias by Byzantines while Serbs were called Servli by Byzantines.
Majority of Serb gene pool is native which could only mean slavized Vlachs who were in turn romanized Illyrians. It is a top aristocratic family that would have been likely in the forefront of historical events. This insofar appears to be the most logical connection of the true origins of the Serb name as far as our region is concerned (even the spellings match as well as location and time frame).
Just because we are slavophones by no means does that mean that our name is Slavic in origin (Rus is Scandinavian, Bulgar is Turkic, Croatian is Iranian while Polish aristocracy in late middle ages prided themselves with Sarmatian name).
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 0:51:55 GMT -5
Even found toponym "Pons Servilii" (Servilian Road or Bridge) or full name "Pons Servilii et Claudanum Tie Drin" which appears to be located by what is now Struga in now FYROM which would have been Via Ignatia area.  Serbs are first recorded in area just south of that and that is Servia in Macedonia near Olympus. This (according to Goodle map) is a mere 1 day walk or 3 hours in a car (one of the roads even todays called "Egnatias Odou") from Struga to Servia and distance is 200km or 125miles).  |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 1:01:17 GMT -5
" The next point of importance is Pons Servilii, which lies some distance to the west of Lychnidus. There is a strong probability in favour of this being the bridge over the Drin at Struga, which must always have been an important position. The only other place between Lychnidus and Trajectus where there could have been a bridge is the crossing of the upper stream of the Skumbi near Kukus, and the river there is of no great size. Tafel, 7 indeed, prefers the latter position, and there is this in its favour, that it places Pons Servilii at a greater distance from Lychnidus, 19 miles being given as the distance between them in the Peutinger Table ; whereas, if Pons Servilii were at Struga and Lychnidus at Ochrida, the distance would be only 9 miles. In order to rectify this, Hahn proposes to correct the Table by ..."
Livy, xliv. 30. 6 ' Reise,' p. 237, note. 7 ' De via Egnatia,' p. 31.
368 On the Egnatian Way. 'app. D. webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ghPE76vnmLoJ:www.archive.org/stream/researchesinhigh02tozeuoft/researchesinhigh02tozeuoft_djvu.txt+Pons+Servilii+Struga&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com  |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 1:49:14 GMT -5
Very interesting read AAdmin. This source suggests that the Latin Servilii are from Alba Longa. It then proceeds to give a list of surnames. I think also interesting note though maybe unrelated is the Serdi tribe to the north east. |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 1:50:27 GMT -5
Note: Came across 'Serblias' as I was researching on Normans in Albania Byzantium's Balkan frontier: a political study of the Northern Balkans, 900-1204
By Paul Stephenson books.google.com/books?id=eaq90_BOvqIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Paul+Stephenson,+Byzantium%27s+Balkan+frontier&hl=en&ei=ADhGTa7aCMrYgAestMnmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=Serblias&f=false |
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 1:53:16 GMT -5
Surnames of the Servilii
Article by Nephele
The Servilia gens, while counted among the gentes minores and consisting of both patrician and plebeian families, nevertheless was one of the most prominent gentes of the Roman Republic in its production of magistrates.
The three princely clans of the Aemilii, Cornelii, and Fabii considered the clan of the Servilii to be of equal birth with them, and the Fabii had adopted a Servilius (Q. Fabius Maximus Servilianus, consul of 142 BCE) into their clan. The adoptive Fabian father of this Servilius, Q. Fabius Maximus Aemilianus, in turn had originally been an Aemilian who had been adopted into the Fabii.
The Servilii were of Alban origin, as Livy tells us (The History of Rome, 1.30) how they, along with the other notable houses of the defeated Albans -- the Julii, Quinctii, Geganii, Curiatii, and Cloelii -- were enrolled among the patricians of Rome by King Tullus Hostilius. The first of the Servilii to obtain the consulship (495 BCE) was Publius Servilius Priscus Structus.
I have attempted here to list and define the various surnames used by the Servilii of the Republic, particularly those who served in magisterial positions during the time of the Republic as noted in Broughton's Magistrates of the Roman Republic. For the purpose of this list, I have included cognomina, adoptive cognomina, and agnomina under the collective term of "surnames."
Surnames of the Servilii
Ahala - From the Latin ala, literally meaning "the wing of a bird"; in reference to a human, meaning the upper and under part of the arm where it unites with the shoulder. This surname figuratively referred to one with a prominent shoulder, or it might refer to the armpit.
Axilla - An alternate surname for Ahala, with the same meaning. (see above) The Latin ala is a contraction of axilla.
Brocchus - Indicating one with large or projecting front teeth. The ancient Roman equivalent of the modern-day nickname: "Bucktooth".
Brutus - This surname appears only among the Servilii in conjunction with the purported adoption of the late Republic's Marcus Junius Brutus (a plebeian, noted for his role in Caesar's assassination) by his mother's brother, Quintus Servilius Caepio (a patrician). This resulted in Brutus having styled himself, for a time, as "Quintus Caepio Brutus", as opposed to the customarily expected form of adopted name: "Quintus Servilius Caepio Junianus".
Münzer offers an explanation for this odd, temporary choice of name on the part of Brutus: "When the ancient patrician house died out with Q. Caepio in 67, one of his sisters had a son who was fatherless, the young M. Brutus; all parties involved would gladly have regarded and claimed as the clan's heir this sole boy in whose veins on the mother's side flowed the blood of the Caepiones, and found some way to realize this. The unusual form of the name in itself arouses the suspicion that Q. Caepio Brutus did not acquire it through one of the legal forms of adoption, but by some kind of fictitious adoption... The testamentary adoption by women of a child reveals that the practice among the high aristocracy in Rome at that time had possibilities... Perhaps the death in childhood of the small daughter whom Q. Caepio left behind and of whom there is nowhere further mention caused the family subsequently to raise up a son [M. Brutus] for the father, who had become childless, as it were, after his death, to prevent the complete extinction of the name; the fictitious adoption, then, would have taken place between 67 and 59." (Roman Aristocratic Parties and Families, pp. 309-310.)
The surname Brutus means "dimwit," and Livy relates in his History of Rome (1.56) that the original member of the Junii to bear this surname -- Lucius Junius Brutus (consul of 509 BCE) -- pretended to be a harmless idiot in order to avoid the same fate suffered by the chief men of the city, as well as his brother, who had been put to death by Brutus' uncle, Tarquin the Proud.
Caepio - It has been suggested that, because this surname bears a similarity to the Latin word caepa (meaning "onion"), this surname indicated one who cultivated or sold onions. However, Kajanto and W. Schulze (Zur Geschichte lateinischer Eigennamen, Berlin, 1933) are of the opinion that this surname is actually Etruscan in origin, and may have first been an ancient praenomen which vanished from use so early on that the original meaning of the name is now lost.
Casca - A surname of a plebeian branch of the Servilii, derived from the Latin cascus, meaning "old-fashioned".
Longus - An additional surname of at least one member (Tribune of the Plebs in 43 BCE) of the plebeian Servilii Cascae, indicating a tall individual.
Fidenas - A victory surname that became hereditary, said to have been bestowed upon the Servilius who defeated the Veii and captured the town of Fidenae in 435 BCE. This agnomen replaced the earlier agnomen of "Structus" in this branch of the Servilii gens. (see also Structus)
This victory surname is said to have also been bestowed upon a member of the Sergia gens -- Lucius Sergius Fidenas (consul of 437 and 429 BCE), for having served in war against Fidenae in 437 BCE. Another Fidenas of a different gens -- Manius Largius Fidenas -- is similarly mentioned by Livy as having participated in battle against Fidenae.
It must be noted that Kajanto takes a skeptical view of many of these oldest victory surnames of the 5th century BCE, such as Regillensis, Coriolanus, and Fidenas, stating that they are "of dubious authenticity, for the stories of the victories may have been fabricated to explain cognomina which really denoted native places."
Geminus - Meaning "twin." This hereditary surname of the Servilii was first bestowed upon Publius Servilius Geminus (consul of 252 and 248 BCE) and his twin brother Quintus, due to the famous resemblance of the two.
Glaucia - Derived from glaucus, meaning "bluish-grey or greenish-grey" and possible referring to the color of the bearer's eyes. This was a surname of a plebeian branch of the Servilii.
Globulus - Meaning "morsel of food; dumpling." This was a surname of a plebeian branch of the Servilii.
Isauricus - A victory surname which became hereditary, conferred upon Publius Servilius Vatia, a member of a plebeian branch of the Servilii. Vatia received this surname in 78 BCE, in recognition of his conquest of the marauding inhabitants of the country of Isauria, located in a mountainous region of Asia Minor.
Priscus - Meaning "ancient," and appropriately borne by an ancient branch of the Servilii most noted during the early years of the Republic. (see Structus and Fidenas)
Pulex - Meaning "flea," this was an additional surname borne by the consul of 202 BCE, Marcus Servilius Pulex Geminus, a member of a plebeian branch of the Servilii.
Structus - Meaning "built up," and referring to the character of the individual. Kajanto, however, is of the opinion that this surname may have been originally an ancient praenomen of obscure origin. This was an additional surname borne by the Servilii Prisci, and was later supplanted by the additional surname of Fidenas. (see also Fidenas)
Rullus - A surname of a plebeian branch of the Servilii, meaning "uncultivated, boorish" or "beggar." P. Servilius Rullus, the father of that Rullus who was Cicero's contempory, is related by Pliny (Naturalis Historia, 8.51) to have been the first Roman to have brought to the dining table an entire roast boar (the various cuts of wild boar meat having been popular dishes and dimly viewed by the ascetic Cato the Censor).
Tucca - Of Etruscan origin, the meaning lost to history. Kajanto notes that "the influence of Etruscan nomenclature was most marked among the republican and senatorial aristocracy, for a considerable number of their cognomina were Etruscan."
Vatia - Meaning "bent outwards" and referring to one with his legs bent outwards; bow-legged. Borne by a plebeian branch of the Servilii.
References
Broughton, T. Robert S. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic.. 2 vols. New York: The American Philological Association, 1952.
Chase, George Davis. "The Origin of the Roman Praenomina." Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 8. (1897), pp. 103-184.
Kajanto, Iiro. The Latin Cognomina. Helsinki: Keskuskirjapaino, 1965.
Lewis, Charlton T. and Charles Short. A Latin Dictionary: Founded on Andrews' Edition of Freund's Latin Dictionary. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1879.
Livius, Titus. The History of Rome: The First Eight Books.. Trans. D. Spillan. London: Henry G. Bohn, 1853.
Münzer, Friedrich. Roman Aristocratic Parties and Families. Trans. Thérèse Ridley. Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1999.
Plinius. The Historie of the World: Commonly called, The Naturall Historie of C. Plinius Secundus. Trans. Philemon Holland. London: Adam
Islip, 1601.
Schmitz, Leonhard. "Isauria." Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Volume II, edited by William Smith. London: Walton and Maberly, 1857.
Smith, William, ed. Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology. Boston: Little, Brown & Co, 1867.
www.unrv.com/culture/surnames-of-the-servilii.php |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 2:04:34 GMT -5
^^ I modified my post , it's Alba Longa.
Aadmin how does all this square with what was written in the De Administrando Imperio about the Serbs? It almost speaks of a different people supposedly called Serbs though it does give an obscure reference to the Roman origin of the 'Serb' name. What's even more strange is that Porphy suggests the Serb/Serv name is a designation for slaves and servants yet we see here clearly that gens Servilii were patrician ( i.e. nobility and high standing.)
Any theories?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 2:05:45 GMT -5
Serdi is just remote similarity.
Byzantines write Servlias and call Serbs Servli and this is by far more simular.
Going to some of the last names of the Servilii I noticed some similarities with words used in our speech etc even today that , amazingly enough, have clearly related meanings.
Priscus (Ancient) -----------------------> Pristina?
Rullus (uncultured)---------------------> Rulja (uncultured people)
Tucca ('lost to history')----------------> Tuka (student who is a failure)
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 2:08:39 GMT -5
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 2:12:23 GMT -5
True but he seems to give a definition of the meaning of Servli that is almost opposite of what the gens Servilii were. Being originally patricians they were noble and high standing.
And if he is talking about the same people ( somehow?) why are their origins completely alien?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 2:21:11 GMT -5
Actually your earlier post , the link to Paul Stephenson , seems to offer some insight to my question. Stephenson seems to think that in the DAI the Serbs are 'substituted' for Croats since the descriptions in 31 and 32 ( Croats and Serbs respectively) are almost identical and similar. Perhaps they really meant Croats ( or at least the name 'Croat') in both cases since the growing evidence seems to suggest an alternative origin of the Serb name.
Add to this that the first Serb settlement in the Balkans ( or at least place where people are called Serbs tribally) even the DAI talks about is down towards Macedonia and Greece ( areas not remaining under Avar occupation) and that there is no record of the DAI's Serbs being in a confrontation with the Avars like the DAI's Croats.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 2:37:07 GMT -5
Aadmin how does all this square with what was written in the De Administrando Imperio about the Serbs? It almost speaks of a different people supposedly called Serbs though it does give an obscure reference to the Roman origin of the 'Serb' name. What's even more strange is that Porphy suggests the Serb/Serv name is a designation for slaves and servants yet we see here clearly that gens Servilii were patrician ( i.e. nobility and high standing.)
Any theories? De Administrando Imperio was written between 948 and 952. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_ImperioThis is written whole 300 years after the coming of Slavs in Balkans and it has to be take with the salt of grain to say the least. -Illiterate Slavs came and devastate Roman provinces of Balkans. -Then they become influenced culturally by Romans. -They become Christianized and orient themselves wither west or east. -They assimilate massive numbers of 'Vlachs' Any stories that have to do with something that can not be proven has to remain questionable at best. Such is the story of so called Bojka (sound similar to Celtic tribe Boii) which could be fully fictitious place made up by someone or misnomer by the writer. Albanian Hodja made up Pelazgian theory which later Albanians took for granted while Ataturk made up Sun theory of Turks and their descend from no less then Sumeria. Partizans in Yugoslavia gave a huge emphasis on their Partizan offensive during 2WW while almost ignoring anything else and fully ignoring pre slavic history of Balkans. So Balkans has a tendency of exaggerating things to say the least (look at you and 90% of forum participants who are clearly nationalists and imagine after 3 centuries what kind of stories your descendants might be saying to outsiders who will end up writing them). Analysis: What I believe makes sense insofar is that some Slavs came from Boika (from Bohemia or Czech republic which was previously Celtic land of Boii tribe hence the name Boika persisted when Slavs settled it) and they slavized 'Vlachs' or romanized Illyrians. Rulers of the Vlachs were more interested in maintaining some control at least versus what language will end up as main language. Perhaps Servilli clan were their leaders and with time the Vlachs become slavized and Servli becames their name that further mutates into Serbs with time. 300+ years later the guys writes the story of people with already established name Serbs and earlier legend of Boika. Most logical explanation for Boika |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 2:44:37 GMT -5
I agree , the information must be taken with a grain of salt as there are clear exaggerations in it even visible to the untrained reader. Honestly , I think we are dealing with misnomers probably due to a lack of sufficient knowledge which was common place in many ancient documents especially if the information is third or fourth hand.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 2:45:55 GMT -5
Sometimes I am in my element and on the point like today it seems. ;D
Wish I had more time today to dedicate to Normans in Albania but this guy comes up that seems to explain enigma behind Serb legends and Serb name so at least something was accomplished I hope.
But I give my word I will not forget about Normans in Albania.
(I will crack that historical nut also)
;D ;D
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jan 31, 2011 2:51:14 GMT -5
Well its never going to be settled. I think people will stubbornly hold on to their pet theories so long as it suits their view of things.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162 
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Post by ioan on Jan 31, 2011 2:53:21 GMT -5
However this is the typical archaization of the Byzantines... For a long time the Bulgarians (including those in Macedonia) were reffered to as Moesians, Vlachs etc., especially in the Second Bulgarian Kingdome. But again, this could mean that in the medievil times the romanized natives were still not assimilated fully by the Serbs/Bulgarians and this process was taking place at those times.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 2:57:43 GMT -5
There is logic and then there is emotions radiate.
What do you think prevails at the end, clearly logic.
I am not after nationalist fantasies but I am interested in what appears to be the most logical assessment of what occurred in our history. Most of them if not all are following what they read from some source and since they read it a while ago they thing of it by now as gods gospel. But once they see something repeating itself for a while then they will start doubting what they think they know.
Romans knew of this human mental inconsistency due to their emotional side. 'Repeat a lie 100s of times and it becomes a truth' they said. That is what occurred to them on larger or smaller scale. Everything we are though is product of recent nationalistic myths that have been take as absolute truth. These myths were written by someone and for specific reasons.
Progress is not one of the reasons behind such myths. Progress can not be achieved by delusion but by understanding reality for what it is. Nationalism is a paralyzing parasite that keeps Balkans behind. It feeds on heightened emotions and thus, by default, by delusion
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Post by terroreign on Jan 31, 2011 3:01:36 GMT -5
However this is the typical archaization of the Byzantines... For a long time the Bulgarians (including those in Macedonia) were reffered to as Moesians, Vlachs etc., especially in the Second Bulgarian Kingdome. But again, this could mean that in the medievil times the romanized natives were still not assimilated fully by the Serbs/Bulgarians and this process was taking place at those times. It's mainly the former Ioan. +1 for your input though. |
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