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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 5:37:59 GMT -5
I already covered the topics as far as lack of substantial Greek influence on Albanian language which itself suggests non-illyrian origin. Nothing can say anything conclusive about Albanians cause they are an enigma and their origins remain an enigma and appear associated in a great way with Normans. It appears that you didnt looked at my sources, wich clearly mentioned that majority of Albanians must have lived north of the Jirecek line, where Latin influence was biggest. here it is again: BIGGER IMAGE---------->http://i56.tinypic.com/b3mxih.jpg SOURCE:books.google.se/books?id=5pCBRsfJMv8C&lpg=PA102&dq=doric%20greek%20albanian&pg=PA102#v=onepage&q=toponyms&f=falseSo you know better then historians/linguists familiar with the subject who has come to these cunclusions? Again: "First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.)" www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachswww.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.htmlNo absolutely not, not even your own source state it is, but what they are questioning is the name "Albania"(wich is a Latin word). My friend, in order for us to have this discussion we both must agree on simple facts. One of these facts is that Albanian is developed from a paleobalkan language wich i clearly have proven for you. Most historians/linguists agree that Albanian is developed from Illyrian, however a minority claim Albanian is developed from either Dacian or Thracian. You can not escape from this facts. You say we have words that are similar with words from Asia. Do i have to enlight you that Albanian have loanwords from Turkish(wich it self have loanwords from other asian languages), wich is a country in Asia? i mean, no wonder we have loanwords after 500years of Turkish ruling. Any one can understand that. Not only that, did you know that having similarities dont automatically means you have the same origin. After all, its not cognates you are talking about.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 5:45:07 GMT -5
Also you dont seem to understand one thing, these cognates with proto-romanian(dacian) are not LOANWORDS but ORIGINAL Albanian words.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 31, 2011 6:33:52 GMT -5
Admin has just an amazing amount of ignorance. You can retype the same point over and over clear as day and yet he'll just ignore it over and over. Ignorance is bliss Admin that applies perfectly to you.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 10:56:23 GMT -5
Indeed, i haven't seen any academic source presented yet, wich state that Albanians have their origin outside of the Balkans. The only thing that have been presented here is wikipedia quotes who question the name Albania, wich isn't even an Albanian word, but a Latin.
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Jan 31, 2011 10:57:57 GMT -5
A Dreamer ....
he tries but no ill intentions
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 12:01:35 GMT -5
LOL. So many emotions here. Waves keep on coming. Reminiscent of a pond where a rock was dropped into.
I need to be scholar to say what I am saying? Are you guys serious!
Do you have any ounce of logic contained within you or are you just capable of regurgitating info that you have read by others?
If the second is true then I am obviously talking to a wind.
What will happen, ...you geniuses you... , is that real genuine scholars will come across what is written and access what does and what does not make sense and center their focus on what does make sense.
These real scholars are genuine only if they do not follow someones propaganda so it is best they are independent. So what if someone has a degree when he has to be politically correct about certain historical subjects versus about writing his or hers genuine logical deductions using available historical data. Thankfully I am no historical scholar or a professor of history (nor trying to be one) in some renown University so there is no one to address to stop this research from being given some real attention in the future.
Whatever I posted was written by several different writers in regards to Normans while Albanian origins do remain an enigma and while no separate remains.
This is the data that appears to remain true or is true
01-Normans come full force in Albania. 02-Normans set sights on the city (Constantinople) itself. 03-Normans were active in Armenia and 'blanketed' some natives. 04-Blanketed natives were at least part of the Normans. 05-Albanian has a surprisingly noticeable Persian influence 06-Armenia was and is area of strong Persian cultural influence. 07-Normans gave Albania its name. 08-Normans gave Albania its feudal system (unique in Balkans). 09-Some major leading Albanian families are Norman in origin. 10-Albanians appear on historical scene at the same time as Normans. 11-No remains of Albanians before Normans exist in Balkans. 12-Normans appear and remain as the most strongest connection.
I have read the Latin words in Albanian and they do appear in Montenegrin speech as well. Our presence is more noted in meaning we clearly predate you (as far as historical records go... you know... logic) and you have assimilated many in northern Albania (Scodra was our capital until the coming of Turks). So we could easily be the source and or Albanized local Vlachs.
First Illyrian was attempted to appear as connection by whatever politically motivated establishment (that since the days of Austro-Hungary) which wants to make you appear as native to the area. Then later it became clear that there are no remains of separate 'agreeable' Illyrian language to compare Albanian to. Greek influence on the area was staggering and Phrygian can be connected but neither one works for you as neither do Venetic or Messapian.
Second, only briefly, Thracian was attempted but remains from Bessi do not fit either. Greek influence on the area was staggering and Phrygian can be connected but neither one works again.
Third, Dacian seems more agreeable on the surface (for those asleep at least) since it is more north and thus more isolated. But Dacia was region that was chronically unstable and where some obscene tribe (too small to be recorded by historian!?) survived Gepids, Lombards, Maguars, Bulgars, Pechenegs, Cumans, various Slavs, Avars etc and these are just names of more known people who invited the area. The area proposed is NE Serbia and NW Bulgaria today. This is area that was attached by all of these plus by Serbs (who slavized Vlachs) yet Albanians remained?
Norman is the only theory that clearly explains Albanians on many levels.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 12:26:52 GMT -5
I dont know if you are illiterate or just are unable to read in English, but i have presented ACADEMIC sources wich clearly disprove all of your statements.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 12:32:48 GMT -5
I responded to them and they are as solid as they come especially without no Dacian, Illyria or Thracian to compare them to and no records of Albanians before coming of Normans lol. Comments contained within them such as : "No consensus regarding its origins"; "probably";"then we suppose" (regarding Romanian connection) ; and many more all speak for themselves as far as how solid of an argument they really are. In addition Praevalitana ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praevalitana ) was later slavized and had various names such as Dioclea, Zeta and Serbia before Albanians were ever recorded in history and Serbs assimilated massive amounts of romanized Illyrians.
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Post by drinus123 on Jan 31, 2011 12:39:53 GMT -5
Its funny how Aadmin accuses other people of emotions. When his post was full of it. Now we are normans? oh well they have a glorious history. perhaps albania could join francophone alliance.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 12:41:23 GMT -5
If you read carefully you will see that whats being discussed is from where exactly in balkans Albanians have their original home. However, the source CLEARLY states that "While it is considered established that the Albanians originated in the Balkans" followed by "The exact location from where they spread out is hard to pinpoint. Despite varied claims, the Albanians probably came farther north and inland than would suggest the present borders of Albania, with a homeland concentrated at the mountains.
Again, your reading comprehension in English appears to be insufficient, since you keep drawing wrong conclusions.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 12:53:18 GMT -5
Drinus Decrease emotions (full breaths in and out lol ) and reread again what i wrote (ushtari I doubt can even do that ;D ). I didn't say you are Normans but that Normans complete the puzzle that are Albanians in a major way. I thing the people are native but the name and most likely the language appear to be Norman derived (Albanian name certainly) that might have included some people within them derived from Armenian vicinity which explains the Persian influence. "While it is considered established that the Albanians originated in the Balkans" followed by "The exact location from where they spread out is hard to pinpoint. Despite varied claims, the Albanians probably came farther north and inland than would suggest the present borders of Albania, with a homeland concentrated at the mountains". So on one side location of something which is established to be true and on the other side that same something is unclear in terms of even its own exact location which is hard to pinpoint yet , one more time, its location is established ---> ; ;D Compare to:Accused guy come in the courtroom and judge says to the prosecutor to state his case. Prosecutor says that the guy committed the crime and that he is certain of this. Judge asked why. Prosecutor says that although his exact location in the building during the crime is hard to pinpoint he remains sure that the guy is guilty and that he was in the building. Judge says "Good enough for me, lets grab a coffee". ;D
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Post by drinus123 on Jan 31, 2011 13:07:20 GMT -5
Follow your own advice aadmin and take deep breaths. Abdominal breaths not the shallow kind to reduce your emotion levels. Not that there is anything wrong with being a norman. Your connection is very weak based on assumptions. there is no language connection as well. Just because you own this forum. It probably gives you a sense of superiority does not exclude you from own stupidity.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 31, 2011 13:11:25 GMT -5
I dont know if you are illiterate or just are unable to read in English, but i have presented ACADEMIC sources wich clearly disprove all of your statements. You either don't read your own sources, or can't fully understand them. Because they're anything but established or concrete. Try thinking with your own brain, argue AAdmin's points, point by point.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 13:21:46 GMT -5
One more time, lets try a little but more simplified Compare to: Accused guy (compare to "Albanian presence in pre-Norman times") come in the courtroom and judge says to the prosecutor (Germany) to state his case against the guy. Prosecutor says that the guy committed the crime and that he is certain of this. Judge asked what makes him so certain that the guy is guilty. Prosecutor says that although his exact location in the building (Balkans) during the crime (pre-norman times) is hard to pinpoint he remains sure that the guy is guilty and that he was in the building. Judge (Austria), friend of the prosecutor, says ... hmmm..... I can not argue with reasoning so sound as yours (lol) . Then he points to the defender (actual history) and defender says "But, judge the accused was not seen in the building during the time of the crime or before it and there are no witnesses nor proof his client was there or is guilty". Judge point to the prosecutor and prosecutor restates that accused is guilty. Judge says "Good enough for me, case closed and tells to the prosecutor ...lets grab a coffee.... ;D Is it registering or are the emotions still too strong?
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Post by drinus123 on Jan 31, 2011 13:34:27 GMT -5
haha your knowledge of how legal system works. It is about as strong as your historical conclusions. whats this obsession with oppressing emotions. perhaps you excpect us to be sociopaths. lol
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 13:37:58 GMT -5
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 14:10:10 GMT -5
Decrease emotions (full breaths in and out lol ) and reread again what i wrote (ushtari I doubt can even do that ;D ). I didn't say you are Normans but that Normans complete the puzzle that are Albanians in a major way. I thing the people are native but the name and most likely the language appear to be Norman derived (Albanian name certainly) that might have included some people within them derived from Armenian vicinity which explains the Persian influence. Again, the word Albania is a proto-indo-european word wich refers to snowy mountains, in Latin. As you probably saw in my source(academic) it clearly states that some historians/linguists agree that Albanian is developed from illyrian while others believes it is developed from Thracian. Also, how do you explain the fact that the Albanian language share cognates with paleo-balkan words? Again, ORIGINAL ALBANIAN WORDS WICH ARE COGNATES WITH PALEOBALKANWORDS, IE NOT LOANWORDS. It appears you do not comprehension English, since my source CLEARLY states that it is established that Albanians have their origin in BALKAN, but its not known from what location exactly in BALKAN. Its not only that source wich claim Albanians have their original home in the Balkan, but this source also. [/IMG] SOURCE:books.google.se/books?id=5pCBRsfJMv8C&lpg=PA102&dq=doric%20greek%20albanian&pg=PA103#v=onepage&q=doric%20greek%20albanian&f=falseHahaha i dont understand why you keep babbling about your nomad theory wich my sources clearly disprove?
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 14:17:26 GMT -5
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 14:24:59 GMT -5
It appears you do not comprehension English, since my source CLEARLY states that it is established that Albanians have their origin in BALKAN, but its not known from what location exactly in BALKAN. So it is established they are from Balkans but they just don't know what part of Balkans ;D ;D ;D looooooooooooooooooooooool Lets look at the word established and what it means as it related to above text; 1a. To set up; found. 2a. To place or settle in a secure position or condition; install: They established me in my own business. 5. To prove the validity or truth of: The defense attorneys established the innocence of the accused. www.thefreedictionary.com/established Now lets see how applicable is the word here 1a. They are found in Balkans just not in any part of it in particular 2a. They can not be more secure since noone knows where they are ;D ;D ;D 5. It has been proved valid that Albanians were in Balkans in pre-Norman times only no one knows exactly where ;D ;D ;D Must say that we are witnessing some solid reasoning here ;D
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 14:32:21 GMT -5
some relevant info References to "selling the Brooklyn Bridge" abound in American culture, sometimes as examples of rural gullibility but more often in connection with an idea that strains credulity. For example, "If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you."[citation needed] References are often nowadays more oblique, such as "I could sell you some lovely riverside property in Brooklyn ...".[citation needed] George C. Parker and William McCloundy are two early 20th-century con-men who had (allegedly) successfully perpetrated this scam on unwitting tourists.[47] The 1949 Bugs Bunny cartoon Bowery Bugs is a joking reference to Bugs "selling" a story of the Brooklyn Bridge to a naive tourist. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge#Cultural_significanceThe betting on the bridge is about to start, get your seats! Do I hear 10 grand, 10 rand do I hear?
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