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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 12, 2011 0:14:39 GMT -5
Serbs don't see Byzantium when they see their flag. They see the flag that their leaders bore. Likewise Scanderbeg's flag represents to us that of the first completely independent Albanian principality/state. Wtf do you call it when the Serbs with their double headed white chicken started fighting with and conquering land from the Byzantines? You ignore the complexities and seek contradictions, its really your understanding thats superficial and biased.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Feb 12, 2011 0:52:57 GMT -5
On the scale of superficiality, continuity, and contradictory representation of who we are today regarding our flags, where you could put the Serbian flag at 2/10, the Albanian flag would hit 11/10. The spirit of Skanderbeg holds little relevance to todays Turkalvanos unfortunately.
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 12, 2011 1:13:02 GMT -5
^Ok bud tell that to the UCK..
Scanderbeg went from being Catholic.. to Muslim.. then apparently Orthodox. He switched alliegance back and fourth from Naples to Venice, whatever benefited his position. You don't know shit about Scanderbeg or his spirit.
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Post by drinus123 on Feb 12, 2011 1:16:50 GMT -5
Skanderbeg was a quasi nationalist during his time. In a letter given to tarantano italian prince. He takes offense at him insulting "his people", however you want to interpret that.
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 12, 2011 2:11:20 GMT -5
^True. Basically the prince of Taranto called Albanians sheep and Scanderbeg fires back calling his people puny fish-like men. Interestingly enough in Kosova during WWII an Italian was a 'zhabar' to the locals, meaning 'frog-man' and were looked down upon as effeminate.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 12, 2011 2:31:23 GMT -5
Serbs don't see Byzantium when they see their flag. They see the flag that their leaders bore. Likewise Scanderbeg's flag represents to us that of the first completely independent Albanian principality/state. Wtf do you call it when the Serbs with their double headed white chicken started fighting with and conquering land from the Byzantines? You ignore the complexities and seek contradictions, its really your understanding thats superficial and biased. You claim there to be complexities, yet your explanation is anything but complex. George Kastrioti was a religious man, this every historian will attest to. Furthermore he had public baptisms, baptising his children, nephew and closest knights. "Skanderbag now once more publicly professed the Christian faith. On Christmas Day his nephew Hamza and several comrades were baptized as Christians. Although in a predominantly Muslim Albania this sensitive conversion has been denied, a foremost authority on Turkey declared that Hamza "a Musulman like himself [Skanderbeg] became a Christian and was baptized on December 25, 1443" (Hammer-Purgstall 1835, 2:340-43. The principality was purged of the Turks and their religion."books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA180&dq=skanderbeg+beheaded&hl=en&ei=MidWTY2oEsO78gaxqOCSBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hamza&f=falseThe Albanian eagle represents Orthodoxy, Christianity, Gjergj's Serb roots, and opposition to Turks. Albanians to this day oppose each and every one of these things. Serbs fighting the Byzantines doesn't matter. People can battle whilst having the same values and generally respecting each other. What Skanderbeg was, was a devout Christian (like the Malesors today) and a f*cking badass, this noone can deny. If he saw you siding with Turks he'd spit on you, that simple.
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 12, 2011 3:27:02 GMT -5
In the end people are people. Albanians held out for 200 years after Scanderbeg's death before starting to convert, which even then nothing really changed. There was extreme poverty and chaos in the mountains, from Kruje to Mostar. This is just me.. but I'm sure if Scanderbeg was watching it all unfold from the clouds he'd understand.
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Post by socio on Feb 12, 2011 6:56:42 GMT -5
The double-headed eagle was not a symbol of orthodoxy. In fact it did not represent christianity at all. It was a pre christian pagan symbol. Hittite used it, Persians used it ... even the Seljuk Turks used it. Illyrians used it too ... It has been with us, Albanians, all along. Thus it is very naive to reduce the symbol to a particular period of history and say it represents christianity. __________________ Vellazen, mos i leni keta ardhacake Sllave me na ''majt lekcione'' per simbolin antik tonin qe e kemi trashigu prej te pareve, dhe i cili me se shumti na takon neve se cilido popull tjeter ketu ne Balkan. Kjo eshte kronika e Muzakes ku shqiptari Gjon Muzaka na paralajmeron mos ta harrojme origjinen e simbolit tone: [glow=red,2,300]'I am leaving you with this brief chronicle, so that when God in his mercy should deign to return you to your homeland, you will at least know some details of your country and of your forefathers ... From the start, it is important that you learn our family name, and what the reason was that we are called Molosachi. You should know that our family name comes from the land of the Molossi, known as such since ancient times. We were rulers of that land and thus they called us. The word Molosachi was then corrupted into Musachi. You should also know that the emblem of our dynasty since ancient times has been a flowing fountain which flows in two streams, one on each side. This is the fountain of Epirus about which many authors have written that it extinguishes a lit torch and lights an extinguished torch. Later, we also had a two headed eagle crowned with a star in the middle, and as you know, we have cherished this fountain ever since that time for undertakings and ceremonies. These arms of ours are ancient, and both the arms and the family name come from that country ...'[/glow] Source: John Musachi: Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty, year 1515www.albanianhistory.net/texts16-18/AH1515.html
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Why?
Membrum
I dunno!
Posts: 72
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Post by Why? on Feb 12, 2011 7:27:22 GMT -5
Skanderbegs flag has it's roots in Byzantium as does ours. You guys have an identity that completely contradicts Byzantium whilst the Serbian flag represents our identity, beliefs and pride in Byzantium going back in a long continuum. It is in no way a contradiction of our identity as the Albanian one is. I mean you have to be really stupid not recognize this. Once again it's easy to see how you can loose faith in ethnicity amongst all the superficiality & contradiction in the Albanian identity, the flag being here an absolutely prime example. Yes, even the Castriota's flag have origin in the Byzantine flag, but the point was different, the Albanians didn't borrow their flag from the Byzantines directly, but inherited that from the Castriotas, unlike what was claimed before that "It's a stolen Byzantine flag". And about the identity I don't think that the Albanians see themselves different from the Eastern Roman Empire, because even these days the Albanians call it the Illyrian Empire. ;D I'm not an ethnic Albanian. God idea. It looks like it's just the mixed people and the culturally-disenchanted that claim everyone's mixed and ethnicity is bullsh*t. Nobody cares about their origins here, get focused on the argument. If you don't have any proof to support the ethnicities, just shut up! You claim there to be complexities, yet your explanation is anything but complex. George Kastrioti was a religious man, this every historian will attest to. Furthermore he had public baptisms, baptising his children, nephew and closest knights. "Skanderbag now once more publicly professed the Christian faith. On Christmas Day his nephew Hamza and several comrades were baptized as Christians. Although in a predominantly Muslim Albania this sensitive conversion has been denied, a foremost authority on Turkey declared that Hamza "a Musulman like himself [Skanderbeg] became a Christian and was baptized on December 25, 1443" (Hammer-Purgstall 1835, 2:340-43. The principality was purged of the Turks and their religion."books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA180&dq=skanderbeg+beheaded&hl=en&ei=MidWTY2oEsO78gaxqOCSBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hamza&f=falseThe Albanian eagle represents Orthodoxy, Christianity, Gjergj's Serb roots, and opposition to Turks. Albanians to this day oppose each and every one of these things. Serbs fighting the Byzantines doesn't matter. People can battle whilst having the same values and generally respecting each other. What Skanderbeg was, was a devout Christian (like the Malesors today) and a f*cking badass, this noone can deny. If he saw you siding with Turks he'd spit on you, that simple. You don't have to prove anymore that you're a dumbass, I already know that. Gjergj Kastrioti(George Castriota) was a Roman Catholic fundamentalist and he was an Albanian nationalist, during his lifetime he killed many Eastern Orthodox Peoples as Slavs and Greeks, Serbs included. You live in a stupid ethnocentric imaginary world when the Albanian nationalists which are Roman Catholic fundamentalists looks "Pure Serbs" to you. You're a proof why I say that ethnicities are pathetic.
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Post by laughingriever on Feb 12, 2011 13:25:52 GMT -5
You're a proof why I say that ethnicities are pathetic. Could it be that you're shaping up to be just another divisive line, setting up your own "ethnic-less" tribe, ridiculing the other. Why? ( pun intended)
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Post by SKORIC on Feb 12, 2011 13:37:49 GMT -5
"Genetic accidents"
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Post by terroreign on Feb 12, 2011 15:17:50 GMT -5
Why? is just shaping up to be a anti-ethnicity bigot! lol
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Post by terroreign on Feb 12, 2011 15:24:38 GMT -5
The double-headed eagle was not a symbol of orthodoxy. In fact it did not represent christianity at all. It was a pre christian pagan symbol. Hittite used it, Persians used it ... even the Seljuk Turks used it. Illyrians used it too ... It has been with us, Albanians, all along. Thus it is very naive to reduce the symbol to a particular period of history and say it represents christianity. I hope you're not aware how stupid you're sounding. By the time the Kastrioti family used the eagle, it was already a long established synonym for Byzantine, and Christianity. Furthermore, Skanderbeg liked Slavs/Serbs, they were never his enemies. Rather, Skanderbeg was at least half Slav himself, so you retards waving the alb flag and yelling f Serbia are just proving your contradictory nature and fundamental lack of cultural values or integrity.
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Post by toskaliku on Feb 12, 2011 15:42:45 GMT -5
If people here can't process the idea that people, their values, and times change than you are truly morons of the highest caliber. If people can't understand the social/economic/political differences that define those changes then you its clear that what I said about Arsenije being an idiot stands as correct as ever before. For Albanians today Scanderbeg is not a relgious figure, he is an popular figure. He created a united stated, started a semi-national upheaval, and even undermined the power of the local nobility and defined himself as a popular ethnic champion. Im not interested in giving more here, if you want to understand it better, read "The Ottoman Invasion of Albania and the Albanian Rebellion" by Kurt Treptow or articles by the deceased Columbia University Emeritus Professor of Albanian and South Slavic Studies, Stavro Skendi: united-albania.blogspot.com/2008_05_25_archive.html But anyway, i wont get involved anymore. I see Zeitgeist was brought up now... so we are at conspiracy theories. Beautiful
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Post by terroreign on Feb 12, 2011 15:44:28 GMT -5
Proof of Ethnicity, being not just a social construct, but a blood matter. Let's take a look at the Greeks AAdmin is always fawning over: By the Athenian law a citizen was not allowed to marry with a foreign woman, nor conversely, under very severe penalties (Demosth. c.Neaer. p. 1350). However, proximity by blood (anchisteia), or consanguinity (syngeneia), was not, with some few exceptions, a bar to marriage in any part of Greece; direct lineal descent was.[5] Thus brothers were permitted to marry with sisters even, if not homometrioi or born from the same mother, as Cimon did with ElpiniceAnd this was in the 'civilized' society of the time At Athens, however, in the case of a father dying intestate, and without male children, his heiress had no choice in marriage ; she was compelled by law to marry her nearest kinsman not in the ascending line ; and if the heiress were poor (thessa) the nearest unmarried kinsman either married her or portioned her suitably to her rank.Sparta The same practice of marrying in the family (oikos), especially in the case of heiresses, prevailed at Sparta; thus Leonidas married the heiress of Cleomenes, as of anchisteia or next of kin, and Anaxandrides his own sister's daughter.A resemblance to the Athenian law respecting heiresses is also found in the Jewish code, as detailed in Numbers(c. xxvii. 1 — 11)So Jews did the same thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_marriage_law
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Post by terroreign on Feb 12, 2011 15:50:32 GMT -5
In the albanian case values didn't change...they just disappeared.
Values are something eternal....you opportunist scum
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Post by socio on Feb 12, 2011 16:06:18 GMT -5
The double-headed eagle was not a symbol of orthodoxy. In fact it did not represent christianity at all. It was a pre christian pagan symbol. Hittite used it, Persians used it ... even the Seljuk Turks used it. Illyrians used it too ... It has been with us, Albanians, all along. Thus it is very naive to reduce the symbol to a particular period of history and say it represents christianity. I hope you're not aware how stupid you're sounding. By the time the Kastrioti family used the eagle, it was already a long established synonym for Byzantine, and Christianity. Who said anything about Kastrioti family ?!! What an I...t NOW go back to the post, read carefully. I gave an excerpt and the source too. The eagle's origin is ancient. Epirotes (that is Albanians of antiquty) used it, and the symbol was passed by them to medieval Albanians ... to the Muzaka family. The star (hexagram) on the top represents the Sun (Zeus himself, the Pelasgian god). Nothing to do with Christianity. The only eagle of all others that remains pure and without any religious additives to it, is ours, the Albanian eagle, precisely as the ancients would have liked it, don't you think so ? Marin Barleti, in his history of Scanderbeg, argues that Scanderbeg even while fighting the Turks, had to hit and fight Serbs for purely national reasons. Give's you a hint on the great love he had for Serbs ... doesn't it ?! As for our values and nature they are unique like no other in the Balkans. And you would be the last person to be expected to understand them. So why bother !
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Why?
Membrum
I dunno!
Posts: 72
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Post by Why? on Feb 12, 2011 16:26:56 GMT -5
@krivośanin You don't want to have a logic dialog. You're claiming things like Castriota was pro Slavic, and you forget that he was anti Slavic, you forget that the Serbs allied to the Ottomans divided the Hungaro-Albanian alliance, and he didn't liked that. He was Albanian by both parents, and both his parents were Roman Catholic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo_(1448)#BackgroundBackground At 1448, John Hunyadi saw the right moment to lead a campaign against the Ottoman Empire. After the Defeat of Varna (1444), he raised another army to attack Ottomans. His strategy was based on an expected revolt of the Balkan people, a surprise attack, and destroying the main force of the Ottomans in a single battle. Hunyadi was totally immodest and led his forces without leaving any escort behind. The Albanian leader Skanderbeg and his troops moved to join the Hungarian coalition but they were intercepted and attacked by the Ottoman vassal Đurađ Branković of Serbia, and delayed from reaching the battlefield. Skanderbeg and his army ravaged Branković's land to punish Serbs for desertion of Christian cause.[5] Ethnocentric retard!
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Post by terroreign on Feb 12, 2011 16:41:40 GMT -5
Your 'source' is younger than the Kastrioti family itself. The albanian eagle is a rendition on the Christian, Byzantine eagle, which unsurprisingly probably adopted from some pagan people long before Albanians existed consciously or historically.
hahaha the star means zeus hahahaha go f*ck a donkey you shameless retard
He actually says they fought for christian reasons...against Brankovic, who is seen as a traitor by Serbs today for his cooperation with the Turks.
Serb principalities fought each other all the time anyway, so Skanderbeg (Serb prince) fighting the traitorous Brankovic (Serb prince) is not problematic in the least. In fact it illustrates Skanderbeg's Serbdom.
Unique for being sheep-minded revisionists, yes you're unique. You punks need another Hodza to keep your in line.
Skanderbeg being the bigger Serb here, bravo Djordje! ;D
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Post by la3ar on Feb 12, 2011 16:46:37 GMT -5
Would you care to elaborate as to how you have come to this conclusion? Quite often you come up with some very uninspired conclusions on things, no offense but you can come across as 2-dimensional here. Be more counter-intuitive with your approaches and probably people won't see you this way. Sorry, I'm blunt I know. Yes, like anyone here is going to take something serious from someone who has ethnic complex. Good luck ...lol
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