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Post by PrijesDardanian on Feb 25, 2011 21:33:16 GMT -5
Oh you guys still don't get point?
Krivosin and Aadmin both are by albanian tribes origin, they are trying in every way to represent as Slavic their origin (except krivosin who claimed once albanian, montegrin, croat and now serb/sarmatian origin lol), they have almost 5 years do same thing using articles without any scientific basis for everything related to history.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 25, 2011 22:07:23 GMT -5
No Albanians till 100 years ago as an identity but Albanophone did exist centuries ealier. Speaking a particular language doest make one belong to a particular identity. Normans came and named the area Albania and became the ruling class that introduced their own form of feudalism (unique in Balkans) in Albania after what Albanophones appear on the scene with perhaps Normans introducing another element with them that finalized the touch on Albanophones. It is clear that they assimilate local population with time and increase the numbers. Late 1800s sees Austria having designs in Balkans and she sees interest in promoting separate Albanian identity derived via language and myths to counter Serbs and Greeks .
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 25, 2011 23:29:24 GMT -5
^ You and Krivo are two confused Albano-Slavs. Moreover you both have a serious problem with objectivity. The Albanian/Illyrian issue is just one thing you guys can't get around. And we can see it bothers you guys more than the other Serbs here, its no coincidence you both also stem from Albanian derived clans. You guys keep coming here with these wacked out theories that go contrary to volumes of already established scholarly work. You guys do it seemingly to convince others of your views but are obviously driven by the need to convince yourselves. Man up and quit debasing yourselves.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 26, 2011 8:35:36 GMT -5
Its true that Greeks from all over the empire were put in seats in all over the Empire, since we find seals of officials in all over Balkans , south Italy and even in Ukraine. In political and ecclesiastical seats. They were what the locals called "Magnates Graecorum". Surnames like Arianitis(that specific Greek surname was mentioned before the Albos even mentioned in texts...), Spanos, Kastriotis, Kabasilas, Progonos, Sgouros, or Uranos(cont Urani). Just like Nikiforos Vasilakis ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikephoros_Basilakes) , and Ioannis Doukas en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doukas_(megas_doux) who where governors of Dyrrachion(in a time when the city had no or few albanians in it), many other magnates probably stayed there and mixed with the local population. illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=29360
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Post by eaglesson on Feb 26, 2011 10:01:37 GMT -5
You know plispardhi in our language we have a saying, If a dog doesn't eats in his dreams he would die.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 26, 2011 10:29:00 GMT -5
Patrino Don't mind them. On one side there are southern Illyrians whom are infused only with traceable Hellenic cultural and linguistic footprint and the only people who come from he same general area speaking another language are Phrygians (and even they speak language that is very close to ancient Greek). Romans come later and latinize area north of it while existence of Hellenic Dyrrachion proves that area was firmly Hellenic until Crusader times which is the time frame Albanophones appear. On the other side Dyrrachion was one of the major cities and these primitive mountain tribes (lets give their fantasies a benefit of a doubt), that were untouched by Greece or Rome , would have been miniscule in comparison to urgan population of local major center such as it was Dyrrachion. Therefore, by default, if the population of one of the Hellenic cultural centers such as Dyrrachion was to gradually spread across Albania it would be population of Greeks spreading across the area only later to be linguistically assimilated by these tribes (which happened except they are not local mountain tribes but some sort of linguistic remnants of Norman invasion).
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Post by plisbardhi on Feb 26, 2011 13:31:28 GMT -5
Patrino makes a historical point, but its irrelavent concerning the Dukagjini. First of all the Dukagjini ruled over a rugged, inhospitable mountain zone of northern Albania which still bears the name of them. More importantly Lek (Albanian name) Dukagjini, Scanderbeg's contemporary, lived at a time when royal/dynastic connections where noted and given much importance. Yet there is no surviving evidence that he was non-Albanian.
Its not our fantasies, Admin, its yours. We are actually supported by academia, you are not. If you actually had a real point about any of your unique theories you would rush to have them published and in turn become immortalized for making the discovery. But the truth is your are just comforting yourself and seeking approval.
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Feb 26, 2011 14:02:42 GMT -5
these historians here are just appeasing the wife
just like Pyrros does
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Post by socio on Feb 26, 2011 15:46:28 GMT -5
Both, but especially 'EmperorAdmin' hasn't got a clue what he's talking about ! No grasp whatsoever on nation, nationalism or nation-state as subjects ... Moreover, his English remains poor as ever. Despite advising him to get a proper teacher and improve it he still brings up quotes from wiki which he cannot understand, and misinterprets them accordingly ! What a time-waster ...
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 26, 2011 19:03:50 GMT -5
Wow, emotions can really block someone from grasping what is being said (I guess the hyperventilation doesn't help ) but once words are typed at least we are feeling better aren't we? ;D
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Post by jonleka on Feb 26, 2011 22:14:55 GMT -5
Whats Albanophone?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 26, 2011 22:32:29 GMT -5
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Post by socio on Feb 27, 2011 5:25:21 GMT -5
'Albanophone' ... ;D Lere, mik se ky Admini eshte nje tokmak axhami pa dy lidhje me kry ... Shiko sa ja kap ketij truri: E bjer kete nga Wiki, se pari: "Because of religious ties of the Albanian majority of the population with the ruling Ottomans and the lack of an Albanian state in past, nationalism was less developed among Albanians in the 19th century than among other southeast European nations. Only from the 1870s and onwards did a movement of ‘national awakening‘ (rilindja) evolve among them - greatly delayed, compared to Greeks, Serbs.[1]" dhe pastaj keshtu e interpreton i gjori: Posted by Aadmin: 'So until late 1800s Albanians don't even exist as an identity. Therefore centuries earlier could not have been different.' Cka ti thuash ketij tash ... Autori me larte, ne asnje moment nuk thote se nuk ka pasur identitet kombetar shqiptar ... ai nuk e mohon identitetin kombetar apo kombin shqiptar, ai thote se sikur tek kombet tjera te ballkanit ashtu edhe te shqiptaret kishte 'ZGJIM KOMBETAR' - 'NATIONAL AWAKENING' dhe me kete Levizje Nacionalismi. Kjo ndodhi tek te gjitha kombet ne shek 19. Para kesaj periudhe natyrisht qe ekzistonin kombet, poashtu edhe kombi shqiptar, po cka mungonte ishte nacionalizmi, mungonte ndjenja e superioritetit kombetar dhe me kete edhe ideja nje komb - nje shtet. Tipat si admini 'NATIONAL AWAKENING' e kuptojne si 'NATIONAL CREATION' ;D Ja ketu e ke, poashtu wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_nationalism_under_the_Ottoman_Empire#AlbanianNdersa ketu poshte, kjo Tara Ashley O'brein eshte nje STUDENTE , budallice qe nuk di cka shkruan ... 38 a b c d Tara Ashley O' Brien. Manufacturing Homogeneity in the Modern Albanian Nation-Building Project. University of Budapest, 2008, p. 4-5 "Even after Albania became independent in 1912, Albanian national identity was fragmented and possible non-existent in much of the new country.[38]"' Possible non -existent' ? ;D Menjehere shihet se ketu nuk kemi te bejme me nje veper te nje Akademiku por me nje punim te pjeserishem te nje teze te magjistratures te nje Studenteje naive te Arteve te Bukura ;D ... Tara Ashley O' Brien. 'Manufacturing Homogeneity in the Modern Albanian Nation-Building Project' Submitted to the University of Budapest, 'IN PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF MASTER OF ARTS' Ma thesis Ketu: www.etd.ceu.hu/2008/obrien_tara.pdfNuk e di a e ka mar masterin der tani kjo bukuroshja e re, ndoshta edhe po se njeri prej mentoreve ishte Grek, Jorgaci ;D Eshte bere cdokush dhe secili keqdashes i kombit tone te merr materiale nga cfardo burimi sado qofte i dobet e jo serioz dhe ti qet ne Wiki ... ;D
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 27, 2011 14:25:16 GMT -5
I am an individual Shejtani and I am expressing my opinion and I am not stating anything new that has not been stated by others already as I have showed. I do not need to have countless shinny diplomats in particular fields to state some observations that in my view a 10 year old child can notice.
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Post by jonleka on Feb 28, 2011 0:05:20 GMT -5
Socio e di ky qe eshte trap po me shkoi nerva kur tha eshte term gjeografik. Ky i kupton senet shum mire qe kemi pas idntitet edhe ma te fort se gjith komshit se nuk jemi asimilu sikur fiset tjera ilire a thrake po per ata i perdor ato terma me na shku nerva. Thote qe eshte term gjeografik a kur nuk i konvenon na qon ne daci. Imagjinoe kejt princat shqipetare kokan ka te huaj sllav dhe grek ahhaha that a fucking gjoke sidomos per dukagjinet se aty i dhem kti.
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Post by Duke John on Feb 28, 2011 19:45:55 GMT -5
1000 - 1018 Anonymous: Fragment on the Origins of Nations
What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century. It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers. Though the Serbs go unmentioned, the Albanians, still a small conglomeration of nomadic mountain tribes at this time, find their place among the nations of half-believers. If we accept the dating of Grujic, which is based primarily upon the contents of the text as a whole, this would be the earliest written document referring to the Albanians as a people or language group.
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.
Arbanasi were mentioned 63 years before Normans stepped into Albania.
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Post by Duke John on Feb 28, 2011 19:56:02 GMT -5
1081 Normans!.
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Post by Duke John on Feb 28, 2011 20:12:04 GMT -5
Admin now take your gusla and sing this for us!
Kosovska bitka (guslarski tekst)
Oj Slobodo junačko imanje Gusle moje moje radovanje Kad vas čujem sebi preko krila Glas mi dođe durmitorskih vila
Laki prsti kad dodirnu strune Glas Lazarev čujem đe još kune Bez vašega jeka i leleka Ej Srbin nema ranama lijeka
Od kako vas moja ruka uze Koliko sam puta otro suze Spominjući rane roda moga Ni sam ne bi izbrojiti moga
Iako me rane roda bole Ej zapjevaću kad me braća mole
Ej diže vojsku na Cara Lazara Turski care Amurat Agapa Sin Orkanov na Kosovo hita I za vojsku Lazarevu pita Komanduju vojskama istoka Muratova dva sina visoka Bajazita janičari paze Suva trava kuda oni gaze Ejub vodi akindžije ljute Koji pale sijeku i mute Murat vodi vezire i paše A za njima po Azije jaše
Da Srbima zada veću muku Vodi Murat tuku i mandžuku Ej srpska vojska iz Kruševca kreće Prati cara mrtve ratne sreće Jezdi Lazar ispod časnog krsta Nosi svoje nebo na tri prsta Dan mu vidi oči suza pune Žuri Lazar Kosovu i kune Ko ne došo u boj na Kosovo Za presveto ime Isusovo I s narodom junački ne pođe Za slobodu zlatnu da se bije Ej suze svoje đece neka pije
Ko ne došo od srpskog plemena Kapala mu rđa sa šljemena Stidio se majčinog mlijeka Od ljudi se krio dovijeka Ko uteče iz svetoga boja Trag mu klala vječno suza moja
Kad sjeknuše Lazareve kletve Carski sebri ostaviše žetve Podiže se motika i kuka Neko jaše konja neko vuka Prvi sebri što velmože hrane Potekoše da slobodu brane Vuci viju gavranovi graču I đedovi s unucima kraču Da Kosovo kostima bijele Đe će carstvo sablje da dijele Ej sve čestito na Kosovo ode Časni sebri i časne vojvode Sve se muško na oružje diže I Lazaru na Kosovo stiže Zlu noć prije Vidovoga dana Ej da boj bije i dopada rana
Kad na konak srpska vojska pade Na mekane kosovske livade Konak dalje od Novog Pazara Bojna svita banu kod Lazara Uza noćni lahor sa glečera Poče kleta Kosovska večera Drhtala je Lazareva ruka Od pogleda Miloša i Vuka Dok zdravicu besjeđaše svoju Čelnicima u Kosovskom boju
Reče da će pehar onom dati Za kog zbore da će ga izdati A kad pruži vino Obiliću Miloš baci pehar Brankoviću I ljutito car Lazaru reče Ako bude živih sjutra veče Viđeće se ko je izdajica Ko klevetnik a ko uzdanica Carska riječ kao sablja reže O izdaji drugom zbori kneže
Kada mi je bilo sedam ljeta Ovu sablju koja Vuku smeta Svojom mi je rukom darovao Silni što je silno carovao Sablja moja od silnog Dušana Sto puta je krvavo kušana Vid bijeli sjutra neka vidi Aj čije sablje Srbin da se stidi
To progrmi Obilić i ode Za njim gorde odoše Vojvode Lazar otrov zdravice uviđe Kad Kosančić s Toplicom iziđe Tri vojvode s večere odoše U noć bojne konje obodoše
Aj prije sunca Lazar diže vojsku Da je sredi za bitku kosovsku Prvo razvi oklopnike carske A za njima strijelce sebarske Pa pred slavne oklopnike stade Desno krilo Jug Bogdanu dade Jugoviće prate koplja tanka Kopljanika Jurišića Janka Dade Vlatku bosansku konjicu Sa njim posla Relju Krilaticu Dodade im Živka od Homolja Za njim krenu strijela najbolja Ej ovčar Janko povede ovčare Sa Kablara Ovčara i Šare Da pomožu oklopnike teške Ko ne jaše vuka stupa pješke Za konjicom hrvatskoga bana Mačonosca Paliže Ivana Čelnik Musa mače vojsku Zete Da arapsku konjicu presrete Za barjakom iz Svete Tronoše Mače Đorđe s Cera mačonoše Ej Gračanici krenu od Zvečana Mačva iza Iguman Stefana
Starac Kuzun Janjoš sa istoka Od Resave i zlatnog Timoka Pred sebrima krenu kaluđere Oj zatočnike slobode i Vjere
Ban Strahinjić s Kosovcima ode Da boj bije kraj Sitnice vode Kad jeknuše zvona sa Dečana Pusti Lazar u pravcu Čečana Dukađince Leke kapetana
Prije kneza i prije ikoga Krenu Miloš ne pita nikoga Vodi Miloš u panciru borce Dušanovu Gardu Černogorce Obilića prati Zlopogleđa Musić Stevan pokriva im leđa Dade zetu Brankoviću Vuku Oklopnika dvanaes hiljada Da u sječu pusti iznenada Kad najgušće bude i najteže Čekamo te Vuče, reče Kneže
Krajimiru vjernome Vojvodi Dade bojne jedeke da vodi Orloviću naredi da pođe Čim Knez Radič od Zahumlja dođe Od Komova krenuše vukovi Saviše se ovčarski lukovi Zasijaše srpovi i kose Orni sebri da žanju i kose Da Kosovo široko raskose U krvave i crne otkose
Podigoše koplja šake grube Zaječaše rogovi i trube A car Lazar mač diže visoko Krst načini i kliknu ko soko Ej za krst časni vitezovi krasni Pa zagazi u sami cik zore U duboko Muratovo more
Ej kad se prve sudariše ljese Od sudara polje se zatrese Zajauka zemlja od kopita Poče vriska konja i koprita Zastenjaše kosovski bregovi Poviše se koplja i stegovi Zarežaše mačevi na đorde Smiješaše zube dvije horde
Konji konje zubima kidaju Ranjenici zgaženi ridaju Izlijeću rebra iz dolama Oj kuda topuz ore i prolama
Vade oči ubojne strijele Lete ćurci i čalme bijele Gasnu oči odsječenih glava Miješa se krv crna i plava
Srbi kliču Turci halakaju Bezglavi se trupovi jakaju U očima rasutim po polju Aj krst i luna na nebu se kolju
Ej srpska teška oklopnica stupa Turska laka konjica odstupa Krv ustavi sunce na istoku Da razgleda klanicu žestoku Obrete se klin srpske gvardije Usred turske srdite ordije Probija se kroz ljese leševa U panciru pratnja Miloševa Miloš s gardom starih oklopnika S kojom zgazi Turke kod Pločnika Banu kroz krv do Gazimestana Na kopljomet Muratovog stana
Kada Murat teški prolom viđe Sa kurgana visokoga siđe Te na paše i vezire viče Ej kad iz mrtvih krvav Miloš niče Sa handžarom blistavim ko voda Bačen s konja Obilić vojvoda Gazi kana viđe oro suri Pa u njega bistri handžar sjuri
Pa Murata do grla raspori Pade Miloš kad cara obori Turska sablja kad Miloša šinu Ej duša mu se u nebesa vinu I Lovćenu poleće u podne Iz ključeva krvi blagorodne
A kad začu Bajazit Agara Turska sila da osta bez cara Brzo prizva svog Ejuba brata Pa ga srete sabljom iza vrata Diže krunu iz očeve krvi I postade car Bajazit Prvi Pa halaknu rezervnu konjicu Na umornu srpsku oklopnicu Turske horde kivne i odmorne Kidisaše na Srbe umorne Janičarske đorde zalajaše A vranovi poljem zagrajaše Kad Bajazit munja silu krenu Viđe Lazar kako u tom trenu Poče bijeg bosanske konjice Za vojvodom Vlatkom put Drenice Tad Lazaru klonu morna ruka Pa se ranjen ponada u Vuka Da rezervne oklopnike pusti I ustavi živi stijan gusti Koji obruč oko Srba steže Aj zalud češće pogleduje kneže Kolju sablje a kolju mačevi Sijeku se krici i plačevi Oklopnici krvavi padaju Još se Srbi u Vuka nadaju Koji bješe turski rob postao Krst izdao što je živ ostao Brane kneza motika i kuka Ranjen Lazar prokle zeta Vuka
Krvav vitez viteza klikuje Stari Bogdan đecu dovikuje Barjaktara Boška i Damjana Milutina Stefana Jovana Andrijaša Vojina Komnena I najmlađeg nejačka Ognjena Jugovići kriju ljute rane Muški oca i svog cara brane Kako Srpska sablja ljuće reže Tako Turski obruč jače steže Pod nogama crna krv klobuča Traže Srbi izlaz iz obruča
Brane kneza od krajina bani Škrguću im mači kovrdani Kuda kolje Musa Arbanasa Krvava će šenica da klasa Srdit Srđa Zlopogleđa huče Brani kneza i topuzom tuče Ban Strahinjić Turke presijeca Sabljom krivljom od mladog mjeseca Aj kliče Boško osam svojih Brata Otvorimo Srpskom Caru vrata
Sveti vide i Bogorodice Kako snaga jedne porodice Boško Jugov i njegova Braća Srpsku nadu iz ponora vraća
Teški Alat po mrtvima gaca Pjenu i krv preko sebe baca Iz nozdrva Jugovinom duva Gospodara od sabalja čuva Pred kopljima sliježe kurjački Po njem Boško polego momački Krstaš mu se po Kosovu vije Janičare razgoni i bije Sja čelenka plavokosog vojna U ruci mu bljeska sablja bojna Plave oči sijeku strahotom Plače nebo za muškom ljepotom Nad kojom se vazdugi dan vrti Crno oko ljubomorne smrti
Musić Stevan siječe i pjeva Za Krst Časni đeco Vasojeva
Krilatica Relja od Pazara Ćera turske đorde od Lazara Presijeca čalme sablja tanka Iz desnice Jurišića Janka Turski jauk dopire do Meke Od topuza kapetana Leke Ovčar Janko strijelama bira Zlatne čalme paša i vezira Brani vjerni Krajimir jedeke Janičare zbija u jendeke Crkavaju konji pod Lazarom Bije kneže krvavom gadarom
Krstaš barjak Pavla Orlovića Brane koplja Janka Jurišića
Kroz krv sebri do pojasa gaze I Lazara od Tatara paze
Gleda Lazar preko crnih šuma Iščekuje Radiča od Huma Zadnja kaplja srpske nade kanu Kad u sječu dosta pozno banu Kao vihor od oblaka grada Pod komandom Oblačića Rada Tri hiljade lakih konjanika Da izbave kneza mučenika
Aj poče sjeći janjičare ljute Krči Rade do Lazara pute No uzalud i sječa i treska Zalud kaplja u moru pijeska Malo bješe uz Lazara ruku Da nadkolju Tuku i Mandžuku Zalud sebri i žanju i kose Kolo srpske sreće rasulo se
Na zalasku Vidovoga dana Krv istoči Srbima iz rana Turci ljuće crn obruč stegoše Najljepši se otkosi slegoše Junačkoga srpskoga cvijeta Krasni momci ovoga svijeta Pade srpskog carstva kruta međa Đe pogibe Srđa Zlopogleđa Kada krstaš Orloviću klonu U krv Janko Jurišić potonu Kad se sruši Živko od Homolja Zajecaše zvona s bogomolja Poče zemlja krvava da jeca Što padaju uz očeve đeca Pored sina Toplice Milana Ej pade lauš Kosančić Ivana
Još se jedan krastaš poljem vije S Boškom brata ni jednoga nije Bez braće mu konji prolijeću Sokolovi bratski nadlijeću Krvav barjak u Boškovoj ruci Arlauču azijatski vuci Još se nada sili da odoli Kliče braću brani život goli
Teški kamen u srce mu siđe Kad bez braće osam konja viđe Bez Damjana kad viđe Zelenka Poleće mu sa perjem čelenka Pa se prosu duga kosa plava Po očima ranjenoga lava
Bratsko srce u junaku svisnu Kad Ognjenov krvav soko pisnu Al još jednom ko bez krila soko Aj srpski barjak podiže visoko
Sunce u krv kad poče da pada
Viđe Juga među devet nada Jugovića pao bor do bora Oko mrtvog borja mrtva gora Dan krvavog oka gleda s Koma Teški polog Jugovića doma Krvave se suze još cijede Starcu Jugu sa brade sijede Iznad djece mrtve ruke širi Otac što se sa smrću ne miri
Krilatica Relja kad poginu Još Strahinjić bješe na đoginu A kad njega kraj Sitnice vode Dohvatiše žedne turske đorde Te se mrtav povi preko konja
Srpska sablja sijevnu potonja
Pošto primi Bajazit Agara Časnu glavu slavnoga Lazara On s Kosova Jedrenu požuri Kad nikoše kosovski božuri Crvenije od srca cvijeće To je zemlja zaždila svijeće Junacima kojima i sada Zmaj Obilić za oblakom vlada
Ej svakog ljeta kad božur iscvijeta Miloš slazi i Kosovom šeta S junacima bez mane i straha Što s Kosova kroz oblake praha S Obilićem sa krvave njive Otidoše da vječito žive U pjesmama koje kraj vatara Aj poju strune Srpskije Guslara
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Post by Duke John on Feb 28, 2011 20:14:03 GMT -5
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Post by terroreign on Feb 28, 2011 21:01:20 GMT -5
I'm waiting for a shqiptar to nicely explain what dukagjin means in the shape language.
Meanwhile we know this: Dukagjin = Eugeanios Doukas
The dynasty dissappeared in the 12th century and immediately reappears as noble land owners in northern Albania/Kosovo. Surrounded by the raiding Albanians they were albanized, of course.
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