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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 8, 2011 16:21:10 GMT -5
How many of you believe in a literal or semi-literal interpretation of the Bible/Quran?
Do you find a conflict between reason and faith? If you don't can you explain how you see reason and faith as compatible?
If you are a Christian or Muslim , what do you think of other Christians and Muslims and do you think their faith is wrong? Why?
Did you willingly convert to your current faith or were you born into a family of Christians/Muslims?
What do you think of atheism?
Does Darwin scare you?
What do you interpret as the soul?
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 8, 2011 17:57:05 GMT -5
I think like 90% of people here are atheists with little to no love in their life. btw I believe God is Love... and it's even more ridiculous to believe in love if you don't believe in God btw. ...anyway my answers... How many of you believe in a literal or semi-literal interpretation of the Bible/Quran? I've tried to read it a few times but find it difficult. I know a few stories and what the priest says at the end of liturgy, and it always rings extremely relevant, relatable & true with a great message. Essentially it's a long story. People who don't know think it's a list of commands but that's not it. Being that it's majority a story describing events means that it's not something you can really even apply a literal interpretation to in order to derive meaning. Just as in life you will find contradictions to everything, so to will you find them in the bible so you shouldn't underestimate peoples capacity to think laterally. You can say it's a requirement... I attend church maybe 10 times a year now. This question sounds stupid to me. I think atheists tend to oversimplify and underestimate human capacity. I've stated earlier that I think we believe in the same God. I have a stronger spiritual connection to Muslims then to atheists that's for sure. Well I was Christened but never attended church regularly until the last few years. I'm kind of disappointed my parents did not teach me more about it when I was younger but the discovery process is perhaps better this way. I was a big atheist for about 4-5 years. What I've discovered I just love it. I could say it saved me. I think it is epically depressing. It leads to or is synonymous with nihilism, misanthropy, deconstructivism and all sorts of other nastys. I dont think atheists realize how utterly morbid they are. If you really have faith then you really have no fear. Those who fear any scientific truths I think probably do not have the strongest faith... hmmm These questions require much more consideration then I have time for... don't expect me to elaborate lol.
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Post by uz on Mar 8, 2011 18:00:37 GMT -5
Great knowledge can be found in the bible, even in the qu'ran, for sure. It all depends on how one inteprets it. Reading a "holy" peice of litterature from a Humanistic perspective, and not a religious one, opens other realms of possibilities.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Mar 8, 2011 18:21:56 GMT -5
I've been taught the Kuran has an individual message for each of its readers. I haven't read it start to finish, I have read parts of it, not enough to say I know it well... I guess it matters more what u have inside of you, than what it written in words. After all Gods message isn't just in one book for me. At times I do see a conflict, at this point it is is again up to the individual to try and find the right way. It doesn't interest me what others do. Each to their own. I was born into a so called muslim family... although I assume any real muslim family would read that statement and laugh... nobody prays, nobody goes to the mosque, everyone drinks alcohol, everyone is free to live as they wish..etc.. Think its sad. Glad that I believe there is more to life than what we see. Not really.. An individual piece of universal energy. In the most basic terms.
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Post by rusebg on Mar 8, 2011 19:01:40 GMT -5
I am not a religious person. Therefore, I don't belive in the ten commandemnets. I mean, they are all right but you don't have to be religious to follow them. You should simply be a good and normal human being with inner values.
Both religions have brought enought death and hatred among people. Which one is the more responsble is just a matter of interpretation. But what I trully disagree with is the way in which Muslims treat their women. This is totally wrong.
I was baptised at the age of seven. In some sort of secrecy because my grandfathers were absolutely against it and my female relatives did that without their knowledge.
I don't know. really. I do believe that there is some sort of power but it has nothing to do with Christ or Allah or Buda or whoever. In which category I fall?
No at all. The problem is that even today there are plenty of people who still live in the top of the trees in terms of mentality.
The best question so far in this forum. In Bulgarian we have the expression 'boli me dushata', which means my soul hurts. Personally I interprete this as the biggest pain one can suffer because it is connected with his feelings and state of mind, and they are the most difficult to cure.
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Post by nilofer on Mar 9, 2011 3:54:57 GMT -5
How many of you believe in a literal or semi-literal interpretation of the Bible/Quran? I don't. Verses from the Bible and the Quran were revealed over a long period of time in connection to certain events and situations. I believe that you can't just read a verse and apply it to anything you want - you need to understand in which connection the verse apply and use it in the same connection. To some extend, I do, yes. I think it's really hard to explain faith, especially to someone who lacks it. The best way I can explain my own is that maths and numbers don't explain things like which morals and values are right and wrong to live by, and why. I mean, you can look at the bad consequences of some morals, but people don't necessarily see them as bad morals - despite their devastating consequences. Nor do maths and numbers explain why we're born, why we die...what happens when you're dead...how big the atmosphere is, and so on. Looking past religion completely...it's really hard for me to not believe there's something more than what meets the eye. I can't make myself believe that we're born for no reason at all, and when we die that's just that, and for no reason, too. I can't make myself believe that people who do bad things, and get away with it in their lifetime, just gets such a free pass. I can't help but believe that eveyone will answer to their deeds... I'm Muslim, and I don't get along with other Muslims at all. It's not up to me to decide who's got the "right" or "wrong" faith, but...I just don't understand the closed-mindedness and the blindness of a lot of Muslims. I don't like how you, in the Muslims community, aren't really allowed to question scholars, discuss them and their conclusions on things...how no one is open to discuss a conclusion that does not make sense. For instance, I had a discussion with some Muslims and they kept saying that it's haram (forbidden) to cut contact with your family members. I asked them, "well, what if there's a good reason for cutting contact with your family? Like, if a child has been sexually molested by its' father...which happens to a lot of kids, actually". I couldn't understand why they kept telling me that a person must still keep in touch with their molesting father. So I asked them the question in another way: "if your sister was raped by your father, would you like for him to be near your sister?" (I asked some guys this question). I swear, they all ignored my question until I got mad and asked them to just answer my question with a yes or a no...finally, ONE guy said, "well, I'd ask a scholar if it'd be okay, in this situation, for my sister to not have contact with my father". Me: "and let's suppose the scholar says no...you would encourage your sister to be around your father who rapes her?". He just repeated what he'd just said: "I'd ask a scholar...". f**king robot. Unfortunately, a lot of Muslims are this way - not thinking for themselves - in regards to various things (if not all things). I find it extremely hard to be around people who just follow something without any thought behind it, or without any questioning. Not only because it makes conversation hard between us, but also because you have to be the one who limits yourself around them - because they'll get extremely mad and offended if you're not like them. I have lost count on how many times Muslims have questioned my Muslimness and even labelled me as a kaffira (infidel), because I dared to criticize something or someone I apparently wasn't supposed to criticize. Luckily, I don't believe that people filled with their own flaws can judge me or my Muslimness . It just bothers me that they even try... I was born into a Muslim family. Probably, that has something to do with why I'm Muslim myself, but honestly...Ithe decision has been my own. Faith has never been forced upon me...I've never had to be worried about what would happen to me if I chose to become a Christian, or something else. At a point in my life I did question whether or not I really believe in Islam and I felt like I didn't. It took me some years before I felt like Islam reflected my true beliefs. I can understand it, theoretically, to some extend. But in practice I think there's a clash between Atheism and Atheists; like, Atheists don't really "practice" what they (don't) believe in. I can't say much to it, because there's the same clash between religion and religious people. We're humans, and not all we do is right in accordance to our beliefs. No, lol. Angry, dominant, butch women scare me... I haven't thought about it, to be honest. I'll have to get back to this one.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 9, 2011 4:36:38 GMT -5
How many of you believe in a literal or semi-literal interpretation of the Bible/Quran? I take it all in figuratively. Not at all, you can have faith in reason, and spiritual faith possesses reason, as do all things. It's the same story in a different format. It's just their format may seem bizaare/imposing. Born into a family of Christians by name only, Capitalists by faith. Just another religion. Heard he was a nice guy. That thing that tickles you when you listen to good folk muzika.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 9, 2011 9:25:10 GMT -5
@ Arsenije 90%? Surely not. Simply browse over some of the common forum users here and you'll see a much more even distribution of believers and skeptics. God is love? Well , I guess that begs the question, what is love to you? If god is love then can you say , in place of love, that you 'god' your parents? Most people always pictured god as some kind of actual super human being ( for we are created in his image) that has male characteristics ( hence , his and father references) and not as an emotion. Furthermore, love has traditionally been associated with feminine characteristics has it not? I don't understand what you mean by human capacity. If anything I think religious faith has often hindered or stood in the way of human progress ( examples being Galileo and religion's general rejection or belated acceptance of scientific knowledge and method). A lot of Muslims still reject evolution and a significant portion of Christians still do and the Churches have only recently began to accept it . I guess 200 years to finally accept the evidence is better than never though. What do you find difficult about it? Don't you think an all-knowing god that went out of his way to inspire a holy book would make it easily understood to all its readers just as the New York Times makes every edition relatively easy to comprehend? One can say the same for almost any folklore as it is a subjective interpretation. However, does it confirm that the stories are actually true? But you just said your own knowledge of the Bible is limited and you mainly rely on a priest to interpret it for you so how can you make such a statement of knowledge like this? And this doesn't make any sense. I don't get what you mean by story and describing what events? Are they true or made-up events? In a book created by the greatest mind in the Universe ( god's mind) why must we apply a subjective interpretation to it in order to get any kind of meaning and , conversly , why when applying an objective/literal interpretation to it do we find it sounds like nonsense? Contradictions and everything? So...you find contradictions in everything? Sounds a bit like Hegel to me. So what contradictions do you find in science? What contradictions do you find in your parents love towards you? Are the frequency of contradictions in the Bible the same as in all other things?
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Post by SKORIC on Mar 9, 2011 9:26:21 GMT -5
I dont fully believe in a higher power but i am open minded to the possibility of one existing (though i do believe its definitely not a bearded man in the sky lol). I dont see why people need to label themselves to believe in one. A label that was created by humans and a label you only get by being born into a family who's ancestry goes back to a certain area that was conquered by certain people at a certain time before indoctrinating the population with the belief system your label today holds. Maybe im wrong but it seems to me most of the people who've answered this believe in a higher power but dont really follow or know much about their actual religion.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 9, 2011 9:29:23 GMT -5
Great knowledge can be found in the bible, even in the qu'ran, for sure. It all depends on how one inteprets it. Reading a "holy" peice of litterature from a Humanistic perspective, and not a religious one, opens other realms of possibilities. Can you give me an example of this 'great knowledge?' What have we discovered in these texts that A) Hasn't been proposed by religions predating these two in their literature and B) have had a net benefit on humanity ? ( comparable to science and engineering)
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 9, 2011 10:02:50 GMT -5
@nilofer
What do you mean by connection? I'm talking about applying the scripture to even its own context. When the Bible/Quran speak of their versions of a Garden of Eden , what connection am I supposed to be looking for?
This has been a failure of philosophers and the theologians haven't done well to cover their tracks either. Morality and ethics are not mathematical equations because equations do not describe things in the normative sense , that is , what things 'ought to be like' as in stating a preference. Mathematics applies to that which simply is. It is descriptive. However, we can use logical reasoning in the realm of ethics and morality and philosophers and theologians alike have failed miserably at this , unfortunately.
Surely there is more that meets the eye and that's what science is all about actually. Science dispels our immediate perceptions and humbles us to reality and to accept the counter intuitive. If we simply judged things on 'what meets the eye' then we might still be living in an age where everyone thinks the world is flat and that the entire universe orbits a stationary Earth and religious dogma was still supreme even in the West. As for some of these other things you mentioned. I sympathize with your opinions but that has no weight in terms of truth value regarding whether an afterlife or godly intelligence exists. If I wanted to accept a higher godly and probably benevolent intelligence exists , the first question I would ask is why does he permit so much suffering to go on?
Hmm, you don't sound Muslim at all. I'm almost certain that your 'Muslimness' is the result of you just holding on to a traditional faith label your family passed on to you. You shouldn't restrict yourself to a label that has nothing to do ( and is actually contradictory) with how you really see things.
Well , for an atheist , there's nothing to really 'practice.' Atheism is the skeptical position and actually a negative 'belief.' What I mean by that is an atheist is simply a non believer. Its sort of like an 'a-stamp-collectorist' That is someone who simply does not collect stamps. Most of us fall into that category. Another way to put it is that most of us here are 99% atheists in the sense that we don't believe in Zeus , Apollo , Horas , Aman Ra , and the countless other gods once worshiped by multitudes of humans. Some people just go one god further to include Yahweh ( Jehovah) , the god of the Abrahamic faiths.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 9, 2011 10:55:55 GMT -5
radiate, you have responded to me with a further 15 questions. I could have kept going and responding and you would continue to do the same thing over and over replying to any given response with further off-kilter questions with no attempt at looking for truth and answers of your own. It is a tactic. You're like ok I don't believe in anything so I'm invincible, now everybody tell me what you believe in and I'll just with some shallow contemplation sort of pretend I don’t understand & keep responding with apples and oranges questions over and over. You are just devaluing everything by playing with its relativity. It is pure deconstructionism and it is nihilistic. It is pretending that humans can not have the same or very close understanding. It's so easy to sit there as you have done and play that game... If you want you can tell me something you do actually believe (if you think you’re not a nihilist as I’ve been showing) and I’ll just deconstruct it using your tactics. Otherwise I’m out of this game. I’m quite happy with what I have given you in my initial response and I don’t think your responses are deeply considered... I don't have time to reply to 15 questions anyway.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 9, 2011 11:10:48 GMT -5
radiate, you have responded to me with a further 15 questions. I could have kept going and responding and you would continue to do the same thing over and over replying to any given response with further off-kilter questions with no attempt at looking for truth and answers of your own. It is a tactic. You're like ok I don't believe in anything so I'm invincible, now everybody tell me what you believe in and I'll just with some shallow contemplation sort of pretend I don’t understand & keep responding with apples and oranges questions over and over. You are just devaluing everything by playing with its relativity. It is pure deconstructionism and it is nihilistic. It is pretending that humans can not have the same or very close understanding. It's so easy to sit there as you have done and play that game... If you want you can tell me something you do actually believe (if you think you’re not a nihilist as I’ve been showing) and I’ll just deconstruct it using your tactics. Otherwise I’m out of this game. I’m quite happy with what I have given you in my initial response and I don’t think your responses are deeply considered... I don't have time to reply to 15 questions anyway. @ Arsenije Fair enough. Clearly the more in depth the this conversation goes your discomfort is all but evident. I do not wish to portray hostile intent only curiosity. Truth is often discovered through skepticism and questioning, don't you think? I am not a nihilist as nihilists believe that nothing has meaning , not even nihilism. Nihilism can be broken down to a simple tautology which is meaningless in itself. In other words , nihilism cancels out nihilism and you could never carry on a serious discussion of this sort with a real nihilist. I accept meaning in things and place different values on them. I think you are confused in falsely ( or ignorantly) conflating nihilism with atheism.
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Post by emer on Mar 9, 2011 20:24:38 GMT -5
Religions should remain personal beliefs today, but some religions like Christianity have had a lot of positive impact from its beginning. That's not saying it's 100% perfect, but it's better than a lot of other religions. Most of you here probably wouldn't be able to write on this forum or write at all, if it wasn't for Christianity, including you radiate.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 10, 2011 22:43:08 GMT -5
^No more Allah Akbar? : (
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Mar 11, 2011 15:39:25 GMT -5
I think that simple people blame religion for human errors, humans also manipulate religion in order to justify their own evil actions.
If we look at the very basics of most religions, there is no evil present, just a basic message to be good to others.
In Islam the one thing I am totally against is that, as Nilo said earlier, people turn to scholars to interpret what a passage i the Kuran means, whereas we have our own brains to interpret. In Turkey they call those people who believe what the imams say like the word of god "Yobaz" which means Bigot or uncultured and uncivilised.
A man a hundred years ago read a passage in the Kuran and interpreted it to the conditions of those days, today they are redundant, today we must re assess and apply according to our own lifestyles, many muslims find this concept too hard, perhaps they are just lazy or they don't have the capacity to understand and interpret.
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Post by uz on Mar 11, 2011 16:13:25 GMT -5
People who are religious extremists, are no different than present-day nationalists. They hang on to so dearly what they have been taught their whole life.
One point in my life, the “Christian” way was my only interpretation of life. For anyone who hasn’t past the slump yet, it is because they have been more affected by the conditioning in psychology. Their ego has grown in what they perceive is life. Unfortunately in some religions, deeper techniques in brainwashing influence it all as well
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Mar 11, 2011 16:25:09 GMT -5
You assume the "religion" is brainwashing. You assume the religion is "teaching"
This is my point.
Brainwashing cannot be done by religion, it is done by manipulative people.
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Post by uz on Mar 11, 2011 16:28:01 GMT -5
Yes, I agree. But religion is the tool, used by these manipulative people. If we stop recognizing the "tool", they have nothing.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 11, 2011 16:29:25 GMT -5
Yes, I agree. But religion is the tool, used by these manipulative people. If we spot recognizing the "tool", they have nothing. So is money
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