Which one is the oldest country in Balkans?

[terroreign]

Silly question; his empire was called the Macedonian Empire because of the region he descends - it was Hellenic in description because of his ethnicity.

[uz]

I guess the Greeks would say otherwise, lol.

[Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning]

Oldest settlement is in Turkey.

[terroreign]

uz you mean the Fyromacs...

and desire wrong, wrong wrong.

[Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning]

Well thats what the tour guide said

Golludag - Niğde - Turkey - Hittite settlement
The settlement dates to the end of 8000 BC

Pretty old right?

[ivo]

The Franks spoke a Germanic language and weren't from the Balkans lol

Well done Kriv, well done.. give yourself a pat on the back, as you’re absolutely on the ball with your assessment above.

Now, for the sake of putting this in the simplest terms possible this is how I’d categorize the Balkan countries:

- Oldest linguistic continuity: Greece and Albania

- Oldest Name: Macedonia

- Oldest Ethnic continuity (ie. with the least amount of contributions from other ethnicities): Albania

- Oldest Political Entity existing under the same name today (ie. given that we don’t take R. Macedonia into consideration, as Greece would have more of a claim on the Ancient Macedonians): Bulgaria

- Oldest settlement, if we consider all of Turkey as a part of Europe since Golludag seems to be in Anatolia (thanks to Desire’s tour guide): Turkey

- Oldest constitution (thanks to the cannon ball of truth): Croatia

- Oldest settlement, if we don’t consider all of Turkey as a part of Europe: Greece

[terroreign]

Continuity implies records, so erase Albania. Sorry, no pat on the back for you

[uz]

It comes down to Macedonia then. It was a political entity, regardless of Greek influence or not.

[ivo]

Continuity implies records, so erase Albania. Sorry, no pat on the back for you

Ahh.. but the records show us that all nations in the Balkans are mixed. The greater the empire the greater the mix.

When we speak of Albania, there may be few records, but I think we know enough to conclude that they have the longest ethnic continuity with the least amount of ethnic contributions from external ethnicities.

Some people seem to claim that Albanians "came to Europe with the Turks", but that's BS. We don't know of any 'large scale migrations' of Albanians being resettled into the Balkans from the Caucasus.

What we know of them is that they lived in isolation from practically all other Balkan peoples. The mere fact that they don't appear in sources until later on shows us that they were of no political significance to their neighbors. It also shows us that they must have had limited contacts with their neighbors.

Hell, some people around here go as far as claiming that Albanians "marry their cousins" or whatever. One can find similarities between this statement and England or the UK for example. A while back I read that in the UK every 10th person is related to you in some way. So it can easily be speculated that much like the UK was isolated by water, the ancestors of the Albanians were isolated by mountains.

Furthermore, we know that all other Balkan ethnicities have come about via the combination of two or more ethnic groups. So my question for you would be who did the Albanians mix with (on a large scale obviously) to become what they are today? Which tribes/ethnicities have amalgamated together to form the modern Albanian ethnicity?

It comes down to Macedonia then. It was a political entity, regardless of Greek influence or not.

Not quite. The modern name Macedonia comes about due to politics. It was a regional identity turned into an ethnic one, by force.

Until recently, there were no ethnic Macedonians, there were Bulgarians, Albanians, Armenians, Serbs, Greeks, Turks etc. that lived in the geographic region of Macedonia.

The modern day history of the Republic of Macedonia is one huge fabrication.. it is pure fiction. So aside from the fact that the Republic of Macedonia is located on 25% of the land that used to be known as Ancient Macedonia, there is absolutely nothing else to connect them to it.

The majority of Macedonia's population referred to itself as Bulgarians until recently, a fact attested to by world opinion. So even though Ancient Macedonia was and the Republic of Macedonia is a political entity their only connection is the name. In the case with Bulgaria, we know that the identity remained.. people have referred to themselves as Bulgarians, so the connection there is much more than the name, and certainly much more significant than a history that has been fabricated over the past 50-60 years.

[terroreign]

Ahh.. but the records show us that all nations in the Balkans are mixed. The greater the empire the greater the mix.

I believe this is a moment where the retort "uh speak for yourself" is fitting. Although the Bulgarians are by and large the most mixed bag in the balkans, that doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the many groups on the peninsula. Fyromacs might be close to as mixed as you too, but of course you both are the ethnic-opportunists of the balkans.

When we speak of Albania, there may be few records, but I think we know enough to conclude that they have the longest ethnic continuity with the least amount of ethnic contributions from external ethnicities.

Shaky bridge you're attempting to cross friend...you know what happens when you jump to conclusions? Imagine that conclusion is a lava pit...hope you wore your summer clothes Bulgar.

Some people seem to claim that Albanians "came to Europe with the Turks", but that's BS. We don't know of any 'large scale migrations' of Albanians being resettled into the Balkans from the Caucasus.

Regardless where they come from their language uses borrowings enough to be considered a hybrid language, most of their culture is just Vlach and Serb/Slav borrowings and having no medieval status or mention facilitates the same scenario as if there is a minority with no constitutive status or rights today, what happens? They assimilate.

Though I'd like to say in the Albanians' favor that instead of assimilating, due to Ottoman favor it was the Albanians assimilating during the Ottoman empire (which essentially is the bulk of actual Albanian history). So with what we have to work with, Albanians probably weren't strong in numbers before the Turks, 10,000 max, however grew enormously through Ottoman vassaltude and subservience, effectively assimilating other Balkan peoples into their ethnos.

What we know of them is that they lived in isolation from practically all other Balkan peoples. The mere fact that they don't appear in sources until later on shows us that they were of no political significance to their neighbors. It also shows us that they must have had limited contacts with their neighbors.

It just shows that they were tiny in number and powerless, however that quickly changes with the Ottoman arrival.

Hell, some people around here go as far as claiming that Albanians "marry their cousins" or whatever. One can find similarities between this statement and England or the UK for example. A while back I read that in the UK every 10th person is related to you in some way. So it can easily be speculated that much like the UK was isolated by water, the ancestors of the Albanians were isolated by mountains.

Interesting but missing the point. Serb heartland (Hercegovina and Montenegro) is relatively untouched from non-Serb elements. Dalmatia through Montenegro has been a homogenous area for about 1500 years (since Serb arrival), all the customs are Serbian, any loanwords are relatively recent and tribal society is preserved with families having recorded lineage spanning back beyond 400 years. Don't know if you know this but regular tradition for a Hercegovinian-Montenegrin male is to know his "Dedaka"; to be able to recite the first names of your direct paternal lineage down to the founder of your brastva/clan.

Furthermore, we know that all other Balkan ethnicities have come about via the combination of two or more ethnic groups. So my question for you would be who did the Albanians mix with (on a large scale obviously) to become what they are today? Which tribes/ethnicities have amalgamated together to form the modern Albanian ethnicity?

I obviously disagree with the first statement because it goes against logic. But concerning the Albanians - undoubtedly Vlachs, Slavs, Turks and Greeks. Mainly Vlachs.

Until recently, there were no ethnic Macedonians, there were Bulgarians, Albanians, Armenians, Serbs, Greeks, Turks etc. that lived in the geographic region of Macedonia.

And until Khan Boris there was no "Slav Bulgarians", so what? All of a sudden you have claim to Kubrat and Omurtag; so should Nikola Gruevski and co. have Alexander the great and Cleopatra.

The modern day history of the Republic of Macedonia is one huge fabrication.. it is pure fiction. So aside from the fact that the Republic of Macedonia is located on 25% of the land that used to be known as Ancient Macedonia, there is absolutely nothing else to connect them to it.

Replace Macedonia with Bulgaria and that's your unwanted truth.

[ivo]

I believe this is a moment where the retort "uh speak for yourself" is fitting. Although the Bulgarians are by and large the most mixed bag in the balkans, that doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of themanygroups on the peninsula. Fyromacs might be close to as mixed as you too,

Not necessarily. But out of all our neighbours it seems we’re the only ones that can admit to that. While at the same time we have claims of purity extending to the Ancient Greeks, Ancient Macedonians, Dacians, etc. all based on some political agenda.

but of course you both are the ethnic-opportunists of the balkans.

Ahh so we’re making it personal again it seems huh.

Regardless where they come from their language uses borrowings enough to be considered a hybrid language

Ohh really? And other Balkan languages do not!? The point is theirs probably has the least amount of external influence.

most of their culture is just Vlach and Serb/Slav borrowings and having no medieval status or mention facilitates the same scenario as if there is a minority with no constitutive status or rights today, what happens? They assimilate.

Well that’s just wrong. There are undoubtedly other ethnic contributions to their gene pool, but in comparison to other Balkanians they seem to have had the least amount. And as we can clearly see, they have not assimilated.

Though I'd like to say in the Albanians' favor that instead of assimilating, due to Ottoman favor it was the Albanians assimilating during the Ottoman empire (which essentially is the bulk of actual Albanian history). So with what we have to work with, Albanians probably weren't strong in numbers before the Turks, 10,000 max, however grew enormously through Ottoman vassaltude and subservience, effectively assimilating other Balkan peoples into their ethnos.

Their numbers are not relevant to this discussion. They were a population isolated from their neighbours.

It just shows that they were tiny in number and powerless, however that quickly changes with the Ottoman arrival.

Again, their numbers are irrelevant. The point is that during the early middle ages they lived in isolation.

Interesting but missing the point. Serb heartland (Hercegovina and Montenegro) is relatively untouched from non-Serb elements. Dalmatia through Montenegro has been a homogenous area for about 1500 years (since Serb arrival), all the customs are Serbian, any loanwords are relatively recent and tribal society is preserved with families having recorded lineage spanning back beyond 400 years. Don't know if you know this but regular tradition for a Hercegovinian-Montenegrin male is to know his "Dedaka"; to be able to recite the first names of your direct paternal lineage down to the founder of your brastva/clan.

Yes bro, you are the purest of the pure. I’m surprised that you didn’t mention your all Slavs are Serbs theory again.

I obviously disagree with the first statement because it goes against logic.

Each ethnic group in the Balkans is formed by the amalgamation of several other ethnic groups. The Albanians may have had external influences, but it seems like they were the least significant in comparison to others. As I said, the greater the empire the greater the mix.. and it seems the Albanians had the least amount of dealings with their neighbours.

But concerning the Albanians - undoubtedly Vlachs, Slavs, Turks and Greeks. Mainly Vlachs.

Surely that’s true. But the groups you’ve listed have contributed to the ethnogenesis of practically all modern Balkan ethnicities. The point is that the extent of their genetic contributions in the Albanian ethnos seems to have been much less significant versus their contributions in other Balkan ethnic groups.

And until Khan Boris there was no "Slav Bulgarians", so what?

“Slav” is an ethno-linguistic term, more so linguistic than ethnic. There are no pure Slavs. And if we judge by linguistics, Bulgarians (and Macedonians of course) are different from all other Slavs. The Bulgarian language is grammatically unlike any other Slavic language. However, to claim that Tsar Boris I “flipped a switch” and was able to amalgamate his citizens into a single ethnic group over night is just plain idiotic.

All of a sudden you have claim to Kubrat and Omurtag; so should Nikola Gruevski and co. have Alexander the great and Cleopatra.

Ahhh but ethnically the today’s Macedonians have NOTHING to do with the Ancient Macedonians. On the other hand, the Bulgars of Kubrat have significantly contributed to the ethnic formation of the modern day Bulgarians.. and Macedonians, of course.

Replace Macedonia with Bulgaria and that's your unwanted truth.

No friend, unlike most people, we are OK with laying it all out on the table. Our history has mostly been recorded by non-Bulgarians, especially our medieval history. So how can one fabricate his own history if he has not written his own history!?

I suggest using your brain logically every once in a while, rather than emotionally.

[rusebg]

I believe this is a moment where the retort "uh speak for yourself" is fitting. Although the Bulgarians are by and large the most mixed bag in the balkans, that doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the many groups on the peninsula. Fyromacs might be close to as mixed as you too, but of course you both are the ethnic-opportunists of the balkans.

Yep, we are mixed, something we've been trying to put in this not so large brain of yours for months. We have set our country in the windiest possible place in the Balkans, with plenty of people trying to conquer us or live with us. This inevitably brings to a mixture.
Not like Montenegrins, though. They obviously have remained the purest sheep shaggers on the Balkans, having only developed several new positions how to screw a goat in a dark cave.

[terroreign]

Ahhh but ethnically the today’s Macedonians have NOTHING to do with the Ancient Macedonians. On the other hand, the Bulgars of Kubrat have significantly contributed to the ethnic formation of the modern day Bulgarians.. and Macedonians, of course.[/img]

i'm still trying to grasp this. where is the line here between one being related and another not?

besides geography and names which both you and the fyromacs share with the turko-bulgars and the greco-macedons, you have nothing to do with them and are basically pure slavs with local affectations.

must this be so hard to grasp?

and yes ruse, we are professionals at screwing our sheep. its a delicate thing, the touch of a sheep.

[rusebg]

and yes ruse, we are professionals at screwing our sheep. its a delicate thing, the touch of a sheep.

Not exactly my field of expertise but I guess the touch of a ram is even more delicate, especially if you have mastered the art of positioning your arse properly. Right, Krivo?

[terroreign]

May 30, 2011 14:24:50 GMT -5 @rusebg said:

and yes ruse, we are professionals at screwing our sheep. its a delicate thing, the touch of a sheep.

Not exactly my field of expertise but I guess the touch of a ram is even more delicate, especially if you have mastered the art of positioning your arse properly. Right, Krivo?

like bulgaria has been doing for the EU, not quite

[rusebg]

Why do you bother about the EU, anyway? Aren't you some american hillbilly?

[Croatian Vanguard]

^^^ Yeah we're American hillbillies except for the fact that we're Californian and from L.A. too. We like our big AMERICKAN TRUCKS ( IMPORTED FROM DETROIT BABY) and our fast food joints on every corner of any intersection. We like to shop and take on as much debt as possible. We like to beg our parents for money and shelter since working is so taboo ( this is also a Montenegrin trait , eh Krivo?) We like to pretend that there are two countries on this earth; America and Not America.



Zog bless America!

[terroreign]

haha HELL YEAAAR

radiate is on point right here, one thing i learned from being an american is that being obnoxious pays off. at the same time, there's some guilt there knowing that it's my nation (USA) that's leading our world into mediocrity and eventual destruction through its excessive consumerism and TV culture.

sometimes i wish i was born in the 1800's in bohemia, where i'd write psychological editorials and study ornithology on my spare time.

[Croatian Vanguard]

We also have a lot of whiners here or I have been noticing this more and more recently. Truth be told , if you want to make a nice living for yourself you can still do it with minimal obsticles in the good old US of A. Its just that peoples' mentalities are different now a days. When me and my parents came here it was a different country , the people thought differently. You bust your ass to make a living , you save , and you spend graciously. Success stories in my own family involve making money here , saving , investing a bit into your house and retirement , and blow the rest in Croatia once or twice a year .

These days people want something for nothing and when they don't get it they blame the system. The system has some things wrong with it indeed, big things , but its still not impossible or incrediably difficult to make a decent living. A good work ethic will get you far here. For a couple years I slacked off , moved in with my family again , had a poor work ethic and hit rock bottom. I got up again , changed my mentality , and now I have nice things.

I'm still happy I live here is what I'm trying to say.

[terroreign]

i don't the whiners are right, but at the same time i don't think the proud 9-5 guys are right either.

living life in order to get a car, house and get to blow your money every weekend at clubs or something isn't 'living it up', it's being a complacent cow on the chopping block, if you will.