Albanians are not Illyrian

[rex362]

The Albanians are apparently the most ancient people in the
Balkans. History and legend offer no record of their arrival in the
Peninsula. They are probably descendants of the earliest Aryan
immigrants, who were represented in historical times by the kindred
Illyrians, who spoke a language unrelated to other tongues in the
Balkans. Still known as clannish mountaineers, impatient of interference in their tribal customs, spurning civilizing influences, the Albanians submitted only with much sullenness to a superiorpower. The ancient Greeks imposed their authority over the regionbut never really Hellenized the stubborn inhabitants. Under the
Romans obedience to the emperors depended precisely on military
forces stationed in the region. The Albanians were superficially
converted to Christianity, but probably nowhere did paganism
survive longer or leave greater traces of superstition than in this
inaccessible country. Despite a considerable mingling with Slavs,
modern Albanians have physical characteristics which identify
them with an earlier ethnic substratum. The Albanian language is
not Slavic; it is a unigue tongue of the Thraco-Illyrian family. The
Albanians called themselves Skipetare (Shqipetar, etc.), “children
of the eagle,” and their country Skiperia, “land of the eagle.”

A History of the Balkan Peoples 205

[najpos]

Nov 3, 2011 18:05:32 GMT -5 @uz said:

The first two arguments can also refer to Serbs as being descendants of the Illyrians.

No, not really. Linguistically, Serbs are part of the Slavic group. There's no substratum in Serbian that can be linked to Illyrian. Sure, Serbian shows characteristics of the Balkan sprauchbund, but those characteristics are grammatical features, not any actual cognates.

All I'm saying is Albanians have no right to claim the achievements and legacy of the ancient Illyrians. Its so artificial.

If Albanians actually are descendants of Illyrians, which is supported by the most of academia, then why not? That would be just as artificial as Greeks or Italians doing the same with the Ancient Greeks and Romans.

[derk]

I don't understand the debate about albanian-illyrian origin. Most of the greeks here will disagree with me but I thought it is rather clear that albanians descended from certain Illyrian tribes. Notice that I say "certain tribes". Some Illyrian tribes have been completely destroyed/extinct and others were absorbed by the slavs. However, the surviving ones become to what is known as albanians today.

[uz]

^ They have no right to "claim" it, there right is equal to ours and you don't hear Serbs preaching about their Illyrian connection, do you?

The fact is they hold nothing that is of Illyrian. The language argument isn't convincing enough considering the counters, and we already established that land/geo-location is insignificant. What do Albanians hold culturally that is Illyrian? I don't know personally but I would like to.

Serb nationalism and pride comes from aspects that every Serb still holds today, culturally, linguistically, historically (directly connecting to Serbs), and so on. We don't rely on some ancient systems and texts that cant be translated only assumptions.

[derk]

^don't know much about illyrians but afaik, the geography is actually almost the same. Plus, language is an academically proven connection. I am sure albanians here can give cultural similarities.

[uz]

You tell me where you think most of the Illyrian genetics are flowing. "Geographically" speaking.

[derk]

well thats easy uz. Modern day albania. The population there is much more dense compared to the bosnian and croatian lands. The majority of illyrians lived in today's albania and south montenegro.

[uz]

Your comparaing population factors from the timeline between then and now?

lol

[derk]

nope, just look at the distribution and the density of the cities. They are much more dense in the aforementioned areas...

lol

[punisher]

Nov 4, 2011 16:37:07 GMT -5 @derk said:

nope, just look at the distribution and the density of the cities. They are much more dense in the aforementioned areas...

lol

derk that's explain our unique look in the balkans,serbs can have illyrian blood but they're mixed too much slav
we're much less mixed,just look at my thread about looks of kosovalbs

[punisher]

Nov 4, 2011 16:22:18 GMT -5 @uz said:

You tell me where you think most of the Illyrian genetics are flowing. "Geographically" speaking.

uz as far as i can se from this map most illyrian tribes aren't located even close to today's serbia

[derk]

Yeah, by aforementioned areas, I meant albania and south montenegro.

[punisher]

Nov 4, 2011 17:02:36 GMT -5 @derk said:

Yeah, by aforementioned areas, I meant albania and south montenegro.

i know what you meant,in my opinion serbs can relate to the thracians if that,but certaintly not the illyrians.
ecept the montenigs but that's another story

[derk]

I believe the original montenegrins were nothing like the serbs. They are probably of the gheg stock but they got serbanized throughout the time.

[punisher]

Nov 4, 2011 17:15:26 GMT -5 @derk said:

I believe the original montenegrins were nothing like the serbs. They are probably of the gheg stock but they got serbanized throughout the time.

i agree,if you look culturally and anthropollogical speak they resemble us ghegs the most.derk think about this if the slavs didn't come the balkans,then we the natives would have been still very strong bcs we didn't have to fight the intruders and so we could easily defeat the ottomans,and you didn't have to go to turkey.i know it's a bit stupid but this sounds great in my ears

[derk]

Well, yeah, the arrival of the slavs did indeed change a lot of things in the balkans. Things might have turned out very differently. As for the montenegrins, as you pointed out, they are anthropologically very different from the serbs and closer to ghegs. Krivo here is an albanian after all ;d.

[rex362]

Montenegro recognized Kosova ....the kinship is there ....



anyways ....



The native Illyrians and Thracians of the occupied regions retired into the mountains, where they remained unnoticed till the eleventh century, when they emerged as Albanians and Vlachs


"ETHNIC CHANGES IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY" PETER CHARANIS





The ALBANIANS. – The Albanian people are descended from the most ancient of all the races in the Balkan peninsula; their language is the oldest language spoken in Europe”

A SCHOOL HISTORY OF THE GREAT WAR by ALBERT E. McKINLEY PG. 27





Albania is an ethnically homogeneous society. Albanians have for centuries been the dominant ethnic group and today constitute about 95% of population... Albanians are seen as a single ethnic group. Albanians may be descended, at least in part, from the Illyrians who settled in the region some 4.000 year ago...’

ETHNIC GROUPS WORLDWISE by DAVID LEVINSON Pg 8 (1998)







‘The country is ethnically very homogenous: 98 percent ot its inhabitants are ethnic Albanians, descended from the Illyrian and Thracian tribes”

ALBANIA by Gloria La Cava, Raffaella Nanetii, pg 20 (2000)



‘Thus the Illyrians and Dacians were able to retreat into the mountains at the time of the Slavic invasions and reatin their identities as Albanians and Vlachs.’

THE EARLY MEDIEVAL BALKANS BY John Van Antwerp Fine




“The Albanians are the descedants of one of the oldest of the Balkan races; they are like the Basques in Western Europe…’

‘The new Europe’ by Bernard Newman page 366 (1972)




"The Albanians are the oldest people of the Balkans"

The new republic‎ - Page 197 by Herbert David Croly - 1969



Between the Albanian and the Slav there stand centuries of hatred and blood feud. The Albanian regards the Slav as an intruder and a robber; the Slav looks on the Albanian as an inconvenient person who, though occasionally beaten, has always refused to be conquered; and, having the inestimable advantage of being more skilled in literature, he has consistently represented the voiceless Albanian as a brigand and a plunderer of Slav villages. As a matter of history, the boot is on the other foot. Setting aside the fact that both Albanian and Slav can be, and are, brigands on occasion, the Albanian and his kindred had been for centuries quarrelling comfortably among themselves when the Slav hordes poured across the Danube, and drove the old inhabitants by sheer weight of numbers from the plains to the uplands, and from the uplands to the mountains ...
In every town and district which the Slavs can claim by right of conquest under some nebulous and transitory Empire, the Albanians can oppose the title of original ownership of the soil from ages when neither history nor the Slavs were known in the Balkans

Wadham Peac**k 1913 'The Wild Albanian'

[rex362]

The Illyrians were last mentioned as such in Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century AD), after which there is no other record of the name, except for one tribe of theirs, the Albanians.

what a coincidence ..same time as slavic invasion




The Albanians are probably the genuine representatives of the ancient Illyrians, who were perhaps of the same stock as the Macedonians

A handbook of Greece 1918 Vol 1, page 75

[rex362]

Balkan Background, Bernard Newman, 2007, p.231: “

Albania is the youngest country of the Balkans, but its people are the oldest. They are probably the descendants of the ancient. Thracians and Illyrians; their language, despite infusions of words from neibhbouring races, is quite unlike any other Balkan tongue. At one time they occupied the whole of the Southern Balkans, and were a vigorous and dynamic people: Alexander the Great is claimed to have been of Albanian origin. Gradually they were encompassed in their present home, much as the Basques were crowded into their Biscayan corner, by the tribes surging from the east; or as the remnants of the British tribes were pushed westwards into the mountains of Wales”.










The historians' history of the world, Henry Smith Williams, 1909, p. 156:

Of the Illyrians and Epirots only the wild Albanians, or Arnauts, are still in existence. Next to the Basques the Albanians are the oldest people in Europe".







Australian Slavonic and East European studies: journal of the Australian and New Zealand Slavists' Association and of the Australasian Association for the Study of the Socialist Countries, Volumes 4-5, 1990, p. 200:

"The oldest surviving inhabitants are the Albanians, descendants of a group of peoples known as the Illyrians, the Thracians and the Dacians".









European Diplomacy and the Balkan Problem, SP Duggan, 1913: "Albania has been the Ulster of Turkey. Its inhabitants are descendants of the Thracians and Illyrians driven into the mountains by the Slavic invaders of the seventh and later centuries. These hardy, warlike mountaineers have always been the bulwark of the Porte against the Serb advance ; for although Catholic in the north, Orthodox in the south and Mohammedan only in the middle of Albania, they have disliked the Slav more than the Turk, and they have been willing to acknowledge the sovereignty of the sultan upon the single condition that they be let alone. Under the old regime they were generally let alone...."

[rex362]

Macedonia, its people and history, Stoyan Pribichevich, 1982, p. 45:

"It is the prevalent view that the Albanians are direct descendants of the Illyrians, though they may partly come from the ancient Thracians or even the prehistoric Pelasgians".




Peace handbooks, Great Britain. Foreign Office. Historical Section, George W. Prothero, 1973, 7:

"It is now generally believed that the modern Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians and Thracians of classical times, and that to this source may be traced those singular elements in their language which distinguish it so markedly..."










Albanians originate from Illyrians, one of the indigenous peoples of the Balkan Peninsula. They are the descendants of the Illyrian tribes that, living in isolated mountain areas, although to some extent Romanized under the rule of the ancient Rome, avoided assimilation to the Slavs invading the area sometime during the seventh century. (The rule of law in comparative perspective, Mortimer Sellers, Tadeusz Tomaszewski – 2010, p.202)