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Post by herrabubu on Jun 21, 2011 18:37:34 GMT -5
I am becoming more and more convinced that the claims about Ancient Greece as the Cradle of Western Civilization are greatly exaggerated. Their contributions are minor, often borrowed and poorly re-hashed from oriental or egyptian sources, and I think ultimately very little that was lasting.
The simple reason that we refer to them as some sort of golden age is because they are sort of in continental Europe, although in the fringe of it, but it feeds our euro-centrism and we've kept them relevant because we keep referring to them.
Anybody else think this? What have the ancient Greeks done for us?
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 18:49:34 GMT -5
Why don't you post some specifics in how they haven't provided anything for the world.
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Post by herrabubu on Jun 21, 2011 18:53:41 GMT -5
Why don't you post some specifics in how they haven't provided anything for the world. Because I can't think of anything that has been truly valuable and lasting. Also, if I post my ideas then I would be "leading" the conversation into what I want. Instead, I am asking for people's favorites, their personal hit-lists, of their accomplishments and how they relate to us. A fair approach, I believe. |
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 18:56:15 GMT -5
Sure, but no one can deny the term democracy came from Greece (for example), correct?
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Post by herrabubu on Jun 21, 2011 18:58:53 GMT -5
Sure, but no one can deny the term democracy came from Greece (for example), correct? No one can deny this. So they are worthy of being the "Cradle of W. Civ." because they gave us A name/term. |
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 19:04:29 GMT -5
This is where the problem lies, what is concidered to be "Western civilisation" in the first place?
In one of my hummanites courses our text book titles was "Western Civilisation", the reason we mentioned Greece as the cradle, is b/c this is where it started but not necessarily where it's heading or going to end.
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Post by herrabubu on Jun 21, 2011 19:16:15 GMT -5
This is where the problem lies, what is concidered to be "Western civilisation" in the first place? In one of my hummanites courses our text book titles was "Western Civilisation", the reason we mentioned Greece as the cradle, is b/c this is where it started but not necessarily where it's heading or going to end. For the purpose of this discussion, I think we all have a rough idea what the Western Civilization is, and that should be good enough. Saying that, it all started in ancient Greece is rather arbitrary, and as I said reflects our euro-centrism, rather than any objective measure of history and achievement. There had been other great civilizations in Egypt and the Fertile Crescent millennia before Greece but somehow our pen skipped over them and went to the golden ancient Hellenes  As far as democracy, the ancient greek idea of democracy, was rather absurd not to mention hypocritical (they had several hundred thousand slaves). More importantly, people make the mistake of thinking that modern democracy derives in some straight line from ancient greek democracy, which is not the case. The tragicomic version of greek democracy died out in the world. What we consider our modern rights and democracies developed independently of the greek idea, in a break from it, and from feudal struggles, Magna Carta and what not. So in essence, you were right, they gave us the name for "democracy' but not the idea or practices. |
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 19:23:35 GMT -5
Pretty much it comes down to written evidence. No one is denying that other civilisations have claimed similiar attributes, but are the records lasting?
I think the Greece your talking about has the most written records over all others.
Ps; Of course democracy is hypocritical, I used this term for the sake of argument in this discussion.
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Post by herrabubu on Jun 21, 2011 19:37:27 GMT -5
Pretty much it comes down to written evidence. No one is denying that other civilisations have claimed similiar attributes, but are the records lasting? I think the Greece your talking about has the most written records over all others. Ps; Of course democracy is hypocritical, I used this term for the sake of argument in this discussion. As a matter of fact, we have some good evidence of Egypt, Babylon and other Mesopotamian civilizations. The Egyptians wrote in papyrii so the majority of their records are lost, but we still have saved many of them. Other cultures who used cuneiform actually left even more permanent records in their clay tablets. The ancient Hellenes had a great admiration for the culture of Egypt, a civilization that was as ancient to them ( 2500 yrs) as the ancient greeks are to us (2500 years) and sought to imitate and learn from it. Plato himself studied in Egypt. The Egyptians left their pyramids behind, which have lasted 5000 years, and yet it is commonly believed that they could not have built something so complex and magnificent. How long do you think the Acropolis will be still standing? I personally doubt it will survive more than a few hundred years, and after that people will start wondering if the ancient greeks really did it all. See, I am just ahead of the curve. |
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 19:47:33 GMT -5
I agree with you here, but to add I beleive most of our beleif systems are going to change drastically by then, if not all.
I personally think the term "Western Civilization" is a sham. The same type of sham the Europeans presented to the native-Indians in N. America, when they introduced culture, education and taught them to be "civilised.
It's all bulls**t at the end, something to put in a text book and teach to young people. To narrow the mind, and block imagination. To teach what is the definitive right, and what is the definitive wrong, with no question of what is between.
If this is what your trying to say, I agree with you.
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Post by herrabubu on Jun 21, 2011 19:56:39 GMT -5
I agree with you here, but to add I beleive most of our beleif systems are going to change drastically by then, if not all. I personally think the term "Western Civilization" is a sham. The same type of sham the Europeans presented to the native-Indians in N. America, when they introduced culture, education and taught them to be "civilised. It's all bulls**t at the end, something to put in a text book and teach to young people. To narrow the mind, and block imagination. To teach what is the definitive right, and what is the definitive wrong, with no question of what is between. If this is what your trying to say, I agree with you. I guess you could arrive at that conclusion but it's a generalization. The Western Civ is what it is, I am not arguing "cultural relativism" or "White Man's burden" here. My point is specific. What are the great achievements of the ancient greeks that gives them (the... ahem, modern greeks) the "right" to walk around and hit us over the head with their "we are ancient greeks who invented civilization". I have already pointed out that democracy is not one of their contributions. In another thread the argument is laid that they borrowed the alphabet from the phoenicians, and so on. Again, I am asking what have they done to think they deserve such a special view? |
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 20:16:02 GMT -5
Geometry
Logical proofs
Philosophy
The study of politics in great detail
Scientific pursuits in Astronomy (The Antikythera mechanism, a device for calculating the movements of planets, dates from about 80 BC, and was the first ancestor of the astronomical computer.)
Integral Calculus
The olympics
Coined money
Thermometer
Central heating systems (but the Romans perfected it)
the hula hoop <- lol
Some argue they invented the steam-engine
I think there's more, but not exactly sure.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 21, 2011 20:22:07 GMT -5
ha ha the Cayman dude is back..Who gives a chit what you think..Greeks are broke they didn't rape a small child..get over it... Alvano ... it's the same story all the time...
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 20:23:28 GMT -5
I hear it's actually adthetari.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 21, 2011 20:28:27 GMT -5
You can't have a decent discussion with an Albanian... their parents and grandparents taught them well how to hate Greeks... it's embossed in their psyche... there's no other way around it...
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 20:29:09 GMT -5
Settle down ^.
A discussion is brewing in here.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 21, 2011 20:32:01 GMT -5
No problem I got better things to do..than try to unravel why men turned to stone with Medusa's gaze...  |
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 20:41:59 GMT -5
I still think you need to be specific on what you think is believed to be Western Civilisation.
I beleive this term was coined when democracy started to "flourishe". The list I posted has nothing to do with Western Civilization but rather with the ancient Greeks themselves.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 21, 2011 20:44:58 GMT -5
Your Ip is bouncing from Yorkshire to the Caymans... I can find your street address if I want to... but I don't.
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Post by uz on Jun 21, 2011 20:45:49 GMT -5
fukk off already.
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