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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 16, 2011 23:54:40 GMT -5
First the video:
Are Slovenes also Croats?
Dr. Ante Starcevic once called the Slovenes ' Alpine Croats.' It is my belief that the *original* Slovenes were an independent Slavic tribe that came to call themselves Carantians just like the Slavs that came to inhabit modern Serbia once called themselves Rascians but took the foreign name of 'Serb' once they established their own church. This was common for Slavs or Slavic speaking peopels to be assimilated by an elite tribe of non Slavs but in turn assimiate those non Slavs linguistically.
In the Balkans there were two named Slavic tribes , Bulgarians and Croats and unnamed Slavs , also called 'Serbs' by the Greeks , who assimilated into regional names like the Slovenes and Serbs ( Carantians and Rascians).
Regarding Slovenia , it seems that at least south eastern Slovenia was originally a Croatian heartland and a great deal of the modern Slovene people can trace their ancestry to those Croats and also to Croats who resettled into Slovenia in the wake of the Ottoman invasions into Croatia.
One of the most popular surnames in Slovenia , if not the most common , is 'Horvat.' There are more 'Horvats' in Slovenia than Croatia even. A significant number of Slovenes also carry the 'ic' suffix in their surname which is typically reserved for Croatian and Serbian families. Since there is no historical evidence of Serbs making any significant impact on Slovenia and given Croatia's shared borders with Slovenia we can assume that Croats heavily influenced this feature as well.
South Eastern Slovenians speak the 'kaj' dialect which is considered one of the 3 main dialects of Croatian. Other Slovenes use 'kej' or 'ke' which is unique to that country only. There seems to be a cultural continuity between south eastern Slovenia and Northwestern Cro.
This is more curiousity than a claim. Certainly there are Croatized Slovenes in Croatia today as well but I think the vice versa is more significant.
I feel a kinship with the Slovenes and I see that Croats try to emulate them to a certain degree. We already know that historical Croatians have been scattered and absorbed by other modern ethnic groups and only a smaller 'core' of Croats remain - mostly in Dalmatia, Zagorje-Primorje, and Slavonia with some in BiH but many today have been Slovenianized , Bosnian-Islamicized , Montenegrinized, and Serbianized and they call themselves by those ethnic groups today. I wonder if we could all endeavor to discover our common Croatian history and build better relations upon that.
Also , a significant portion of Hungarians living on the borderline with Croatia have Cro ancestry and they openly admit it too.
PS: I have sources for all of this its just late at night and I felt like making a general opinion based post.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Aug 18, 2011 9:52:49 GMT -5
What are the general relations/feelings between Croats and Slovenes? I saw you posted an article a while back about a dispute over access to the sea or rather a an island that had key access to the seas.
During the Austro-Hungarian Empire, I've read that nearly 2,000,000 Slavs got assimilated into the Hungarian ethnic group.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 18, 2011 15:07:08 GMT -5
What are the general relations/feelings between Croats and Slovenes? I saw you posted an article a while back about a dispute over access to the sea or rather a an island that had key access to the seas. During the Austro-Hungarian Empire, I've read that nearly 2,000,000 Slavs got assimilated into the Hungarian ethnic group. We get along with Slovenes pretty well. I mean there is the political scene where there is some tension because of the Piran Bay and the fruitless endeavor for some Slovenians to try to get land by having the EU forcibly extract it from Croatia. That will never happen and once Croatia joins the EU Slovenes will have open borders with the Piran bay eliminating any economic reasons for which they are complaning. But then why do the Slovenes keep blocking Croatia's entry into the EU? Well , its not for 'economic reasons' over Croatian territory , as I said , open borders will exist between the two countries once Croatia joins in 2013 but its for a whole different reason. That reason is gold old fashioned land grabbing chauvinism and this time from the Slovenians who are normally peaceful. Our relations to them are a bit like Bulgaria's relations to Serbia. Friendly for the most part but some tension over 'disputed' territory. But unlike Serbia , which has a sizeable Bulgarian population in the lands that Bulgaria historically claims , Slovenes are barely present in the land they try to claim from Croatia. Most Croats and Slovenes are the same religion but obviously that doesn't unite all Slavic speaking peoples. Its very likely that Croatia and Slovenia would've formed one single unit or country had the AH Empire not fallen apart ( forcibly broken apart actually) with Zagreb at its capital. And yes , tones of Slavic speaking peoples were magyarized. This is particularly evident in the regions along the border with Croatia , Slovenia , and Vojvodina. Before Hungarian royalty became a Habsburg possesion Hungary was still a dual monarchy with Croatia ( Hungary-Croatia) and in the Slavonia/Baranja regions there was a lot of intermingling and intermarriage.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 6, 2011 6:00:40 GMT -5
ha ha ha zosozox destroyed you all, easily ;D ha ha, nice to see some panic in the croat camp as in this vid's comments.... Diktator86? ? how pathetic
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Post by terroreign on Sept 6, 2011 15:07:00 GMT -5
that video is hilarious!! anybody see this video of "croat" gusle? it's the most retarded thing ever, like a "croat" emperor dushan! btw starcevic was of orthodox origin
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 6, 2011 17:15:30 GMT -5
No what's retarded is thinking gusle are ethnic rather than regional. Gusle have been part of the region even before the arrival of the Slavs. Croats & Serbs in certain regions picked it up which is why you see the lack of gusle in other Slavic countries. Starcevic's mother was Orthodox probably of Vlach origin and if his Orthodox side of the family still felt like Croats nothing wrong with that. No rule says Croats should be exclusively Catholic. Nothing suggests his father was not Croatian though. But if we use your logic , Krivo , Dushan was a Bulgarian then.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 7, 2011 0:26:43 GMT -5
Gusle is a ethnic instrument being that it's origins are from the steppes, it came with our arrival to the balkans.
Well of course there's nothing wrong with his mother being a Serb, or his father either. Just the little detail that he pathologically hated Serbs!
My logic is that all slavs are Serbs under artificial/regional names, you don't want my logic.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 3:04:56 GMT -5
when will this idiot priso understand that apart from some italians/vlahs/catholics in the adriatic, LATIN (vlahs) WAS NEVER spoken in Bosnia???
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 3:07:01 GMT -5
Talking about Starcevici..... they have put out some very cool music...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 3:44:05 GMT -5
that video is hilarious!! anybody see this video of "croat" gusle? it's the most retarded thing ever, like a "croat" emperor dushan! LMAO!!!! cajkavica, kajkavica, gusle, what a pathetic salad.... i am too lucky my wife is not .... croat.... (meaning with croat passport, because as it is obvious to see, there are no croats...) croats are just a fuzzy loose definition for the catholic south slavs.... most of them cannot even communicate with one another.... croatia currently struggles to survive.... Croatia was given all balkan markets (BiH/CG/SRB) and still they struggle.... If Serbia was given all those help and market opportunities, she would have erased croatia from the map.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 4:44:39 GMT -5
Wishful thinking. Gusle are only popular in certain regions of the Balkans , mostly the mountainous part and it crosses ethnic 'boundries.' It's history is probably even celtic. And the people that became known as 'Serbs' didn't go directly to the Balkans from the steppes. How then do you explain your 'brothers' in the north in Lusatia? Where are their gusle? If it was indeed 'Serb' thing as you claim region should matter little and Serbs everywhere ought to be part of that tradition. They are not. Your argument fails on simple logic and observation as do all Cetnik arguments. But its TL;DR , you people never listen to reason anyway. He only hated Serbs to the extent that they threatened his own nation , the Croats. Perfectly understandable at the time since Serbia was openly a chauvinist state taking its lust for expansion and blood quest from her Turkish masters after 500 years. It's a bad habit that stuck with you guys till the present day. And your comment is a bit of the classic case of the pot and kettle. You claiming Starcevic was 'Serb' ergo his hate for Serbs is along the same lines as us claiming Vojislav Seselj and his pathological hate of Croats but even Serbs feel Seselj is a 'Croat in denial.' lol. U can have him for all I care , true Serb or not , he's definitely a classic Serb. Seselj's hate far exceed(ed) that of Starcevic btw. Who wants logic that fails? That's like answering two plus two = banana. More lack of critically analyzing your own statements ( but trolls don't do that anyway , remember it wasn't long ago you were a Montenegrin nationalist till you got bored with that. Don't bother turning Croat when you change again , we're not the kind of people that have much patience for trolls) If any name is artificial its the Serb one. Early Slavs never called themselves Serbs and rarely slavs. In fact there is written historical ( non partisan) evidence showing that the Serb name was a foreign name bequithed on certain Slavs. Slavs started calling themselves 'Slavs' ( Slovenes , Slovaks) and Serbs when they accepted the foreign name as a norm. Initially these were nameless Slavs who were purely regional ( Rascians became Serbs , Carantians became Slovenes). Other Slavs had their own ethnic name ( probably of Iranian origin)AND ALWAYS KEPT THE NAME like Croat , Bulgarian , or Scandanavian origin like Rus. In a way you guys are just as artificial as the Bosniaks just with more seniority.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 4:51:26 GMT -5
when will this idiot priso understand that apart from some italians/vlahs/catholics in the adriatic, LATIN (vlahs) WAS NEVER spoken in Bosnia??? Nobody said anything about Latin langauge. LOL , idiot. Vlachs were infamous for picking up the native language of whatever neighboring land they lived in. And visitors to Bosnia even as late as the mid-Ottoman period CONSTANTLY commented on the Vlach population and even their language. The list three kinds of 'Bosnians.' -The 'old Bosnians' who are of Catholic faith - The Turks ( muslim converts and Muslim settlers) - The Vlachs who are settlers from the east ( i.e. Serbia , Romania , etc) U know what it doesn't even matter. Cetniks don't listen to reason , its a cardinal rule of theirs. I don't feel like wasting anymore energy on a tool.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 5:01:27 GMT -5
that video is hilarious!! anybody see this video of "croat" gusle? it's the most retarded thing ever, like a "croat" emperor dushan! LMAO!!!! cajkavica, kajkavica, gusle, what a pathetic salad.... i am too lucky my wife is not .... croat.... (meaning with croat passport, because as it is obvious to see, there are no croats...) croats are just a fuzzy loose definition for the catholic south slavs.... most of them cannot even communicate with one another.... croatia currently struggles to survive.... Croatia was given all balkan markets (BiH/CG/SRB) and still they struggle.... If Serbia was given all those help and market opportunities, she would have erased croatia from the map. Of course Croatia is a 'salad' dumbf**k. Only people as stupid as neo Cetniks would claim some homogenous ethnic group of their own. While Serbian women paid 'taxes' to their Turkish overlords in Serbia for 500 years Croatia was split up between 3 major empires funnily enough more or less corresponding to the old Croatian dialectical boundries. It's what happens , you got diversity among people when three major cultures influence them regionally. It's why even California looks very different than Connecticut in the U.S. Yet whats amazing is that even through all of those differences we remained the same , one people. That's a sign of strength , not weakness as you portray. And again , you have this common Cetnik habit of pointing out others' flaws without bothering to check out your own backyard. I mean you're the same Cetniks that claim Macedonian and Torlakian as 'Serbian' yet that 'dialect' is much closer related to another language , Bulgarian. It diverges off the path of west South Slavic so much that it forms its own branch of east south slavic. It's more different than Kaj, Sto, and Ca are to eachother which basically 3 ways of saying what yet the grammer is more or less still uniform in all three dialects. Neo Serbian ( Neo Stokavian) and 'old Serbian' ( Macedonian , Torlakian) make no sense in terms of being evolved from eachother. And as far as your wet dream of wiping out the Croats , history should teach you a vital lesson. Everytime the Serbs displayed aggression toward the Croats , the Serbs paid direly for it. You created the Ustashe, yes Serbs created the Ustase because o f their chauvinism in the first Yugoslavia. Think about it , had the Serbs never assiniated Radic & Co that would never create a situation where the Ustase could garner support. Serbs showed in 1928 that blood ought to be spilt when negotiating with the Croats. In 1941 Pavelic gave you your answer. In the recent war you wanted to rip Croatiaapart and cleanse all the Croats living in so-called 'Serbian land.' 1991 you were *so close* to obtaining your goal. In 1995 we gave you your answer. It's a lesson pyrro. You don't mess with us , you hit us , we'll hit you back 10x harder because unfortunately this is sometimes the only way you guys finally understand. Serbs had to accept that Krajina was a wet dream only with utter defeat. Why don't you celebrate the defeat of 'Krajina' either. I mean you guys celebrate Kosovo's defeat , why not Krajina? Join us in party and song
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 5:07:43 GMT -5
when will this idiot priso understand that apart from some italians/vlahs/catholics in the adriatic, LATIN (vlahs) WAS NEVER spoken in Bosnia??? Nobody said anything about Latin langauge. LOL , idiot. Vlachs were infamous for picking up the native language of whatever neighboring land they lived in. And visitors to Bosnia even as late as the mid-Ottoman period CONSTANTLY commented on the Vlach population and even their language. The list three kinds of 'Bosnians.' -The 'old Bosnians' who are of Catholic faith - The Turks ( muslim converts and Muslim settlers) - The Vlachs who are settlers from the east ( i.e. Serbia , Romania , etc) U know what it doesn't even matter. Cetniks don't listen to reason , its a cardinal rule of theirs. I don't feel like wasting anymore energy on a tool. You f**king moron. Vlah language is a latin language. There no memories of anything latin in Bosnia. There are a few vlahs in Serbia, and there is recorded vlah speech in Serbia (eastern serbia). but in bosnia no. few known serbs were of vlah descent, like Branislav Nusic, who was a greek vlah very near my home land... You see, Serbia as a big center that it was, attracted much of the balkan elite to go and work there.... in contrast with your nazi kind... LOL when was the first factory opened in Ustasaland??? post 1945?? HA HA HA HA
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 5:20:02 GMT -5
Nobody said anything about Latin langauge. LOL , idiot. Vlachs were infamous for picking up the native language of whatever neighboring land they lived in. And visitors to Bosnia even as late as the mid-Ottoman period CONSTANTLY commented on the Vlach population and even their language. The list three kinds of 'Bosnians.' -The 'old Bosnians' who are of Catholic faith - The Turks ( muslim converts and Muslim settlers) - The Vlachs who are settlers from the east ( i.e. Serbia , Romania , etc) U know what it doesn't even matter. Cetniks don't listen to reason , its a cardinal rule of theirs. I don't feel like wasting anymore energy on a tool. You f**king moron. Vlah language is a latin language. There no memories of anything latin in Bosnia. There are a few vlahs in Serbia, and there is recorded vlah speech in Serbia (eastern serbia). but in bosnia no. few known serbs were of vlah descent, like Branislav Nusic, who was a greek vlah very near my home land... You see, Serbia as a big center that it was, attracted much of the balkan elite to go and work there.... in contrast with your nazi kind... LOL when was the first factory opened in Ustasaland??? post 1945?? HA HA HA HA All the Vlachs today are Slavonic speaking and even a lot of the Vlachs that went to Bosnia during the Ottoman times were Slavonic. Foreign observers at the time commented that the Vlachs resettled from places like Serbia which was obviously Slavonic speaking at the time. But they were uniquely Vlachs. Something about them stood out to the travelers of Ottoman Bosnia to distinguish them from the real Bosnians ( the Catholics). I don't know why you feel so offended by this. And who cares how many spoke latin and how many didn't.(QUIT TRYING TO TAKE THIS OFF TOPIC) People's langauges change all the time depending on how long they are a resident in their new country. America was full of Navajos and other INdians, the ancesters of African Americans surely didn't speak English as their native language coming on the slave ship from Africa. The language of the administrators prevailed.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 5:27:16 GMT -5
if you consider vlahs as a (slav)-serbian branch then you could not try to use it as as anti-serb argument. another possibility in this unbelievable theory of yours, is to baptise as "vlah" anything orthodox in the balkans... which of course again sounds silly.
also most of the orthodox serb nobbles (e.g. mrnjavcevici bros who fought in the battle of maritsa and still worshiped in the bulgarian folk) who fought against the turks were from bosnia...
really, this trick with the "different" "vlahs" who came supposedly later, during the ottoman times, sucks from any perspective you try to look at it...
try something less silly
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 5:44:28 GMT -5
if you consider vlahs as a (slav)-serbian branch then you could not try to use it as as anti-serb argument. another possibility in this unbelievable theory of yours, is to baptise as "vlah" anything orthodox in the balkans... which of course again sounds silly. also most of the orthodox serb nobbles (e.g. mrnjavcevici bros who fought in the battle of maritsa and still worshiped in the bulgarian folk) who fought against the turks were from bosnia... really, this trick with the "different" "vlahs" who came supposedly later, during the ottoman times, sucks from any perspective you try to look at it... try something less silly Not true. Some of the Vlachs were Catholic and Muslim who became assimilated into Croats & later Bosniaks as well. It just so happens the majority of Vlachs in Ex-Yu were Orthodox faith and belonged to the Serbian Orthodox Church. Somebody recently posed the question of what ethnicities would be like in Ex-Yu today had religion not played such a roll in defining them. I am quite sure Croats would be around and possibly Serbs but their territory would be different. One thing for sure is that they could be a gigantic Vlach state in the middle of Ex-Yu mostly comprised of modern Serb ethnic territory today. And the Vlach settler theory about Serbs isn't mine. It's an acedemic theory with quite a bit of evidence to support it. Again , why would foreign travelers distinguish the Vlachs from the old Bosnians even when the spoke basically the same language? Something about the Vlachs was distinguishable from the rest of the Bosnains just like many aspects of Bosnian Serbs can be distinguishable from Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks today. Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks are basically the same. The only thing that divides them is religion. We speak more or less the same dialect , we both use latin script, etc. Serbs stand out as unique.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 5:46:31 GMT -5
PS: It's not at all strange that the traditional parts of the old Bosnian kingdom are primarily inhabited by today's Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks ( Central Bosnia = Vitez , Bobovac , Jajce , etc) and very little Serbs even before the creation of the Fed and RS.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 5:48:47 GMT -5
Even Bosniak nationalists look at Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs differently. While they despise both of us they almost always claim that the Bosnian Croats are *really* Bosniaks who were brainwashed by Zagreb while the Bosnian Serbs are not only brainwashed by Belgrade but are of foreign origin. They have an argument against Bos Serbs being native to Bosnia but they can pose none against Bosnian Croats hence they claim us as theirs.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 5:52:44 GMT -5
do you read your own BS? personally i won't waste a single second on this.
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