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Post by coke&broke on Sept 5, 2011 13:22:20 GMT -5
You're wrong, I've been to Montenegro, and even if I hadn't it wouldn't have refuted anything I said. Albanians extended further than they do today and there never was any real presence of anything non-Albanian in Northern-Albania except for a Vlach one. I was just in the andrijevica-plav region, so that's how i know. you're referring to some "history" but where are the documents proving this? Krasnici & Hoti descend from a Serb clan (Vasojevici) and the Klimenti are of Serb origin (Hercegovina). Cherry on top that Skadar was a Serb capital for over half a millenia. So looks like albanians have little presence today, and had little in history too. Terror, can you give me a date, or rather the century, in which tribes like the Krasniqi, Hoti and Kelmendi started to identify as Albanians rather than their supposed Serb origins? Many Albanians, especially those from highland descent, can trace their family tree from 3-5 centuries ago to the present day. Many of them, such as myself, have knowledge of their family migratory patterns in the Balkans and the name of their ancestors. Paternally, I am of the Gash clan (another clan which some Serbs claim as their own), and there is not one Slavic name in our family tree (and even if there was, that would not be indicative of one's ethnicity), rather just common Christian/Catholic Latin names before we settled in Kosove and converted to Islam not long ago. On the other hand we've had members on Illyria Forum who have researched their family tree and found a few Albanian ancestors, such as PARTISAN, who ironically was one of the more 'patriotic Serb' members on here. There are no documents to prove the origins of the various highlander clans of Montenegro and North Albania either; many of them are based on legends and their origins depend on whether you believe the Albanian or Slav retellings.
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Post by odel on Sept 5, 2011 15:03:14 GMT -5
Lol, none of those tribes are of Serb origin, Murlanihotit could tell you about his own tribe a lot better than you could. The Hoti (the new one) are also descended from Hercegovina, however there's no mention of them being Serb but they fled Hercegovina as the Slavs came pouring in. The Kelmendi always were Catholic and Albanians, nothing points to Serb origin.
That Shkodra once was the Serb capital doesn't mean anything else other than that it was under Serb control and that it was of importance. By your logic, Constantinople is and always was Turkish as it was the capital of the Ottoman empire.
I say you have little understanding of history and that you're on your silly trolling parades as always.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 6, 2011 12:11:49 GMT -5
A true Bosniak? Let me give it a shot , this is a Bosnian patriot who identifies with only the Bosnian identity and usually had a positive opinion of controversial figures like Izetbegovic.
A Bosniak puts Bosnia before any other place even before Croatia and Serbia. A Bosniak considers Croatia & Serbia as merely neighboring countries with similar but fundamentally different people. A Bosniak might be hostile to other Bosnians because some of those Bosnians might feel more Croatian or Serbian than Bosnian. A Bosniak's heart races and courage rises when he sees the Bosnian flag waving , when he hears the Bosnian anthem he stands tall and proud and there is nothing more poetic or talks to a Bosniak's heart more than Sevdah music. reak
I'm a Bosnian ( or Herzegovian) but not a Bosniak because for me to be a Bosniak would have to mean I cannot be a Croat anymore which is absurd to me. I put Croatia before Bosnia and consider Bosnia a breakaway Croatian place but I do respect its independence.
I'm not muslim and I was born a Catholic. I chose to be atheist. One thing I do share with a Bosniak is a deep love for Sevdah music and i get chills when I hear those meaningful songs about Bosnia and her people.
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Post by darkness on Sept 6, 2011 12:47:58 GMT -5
Lol, none of those tribes are of Serb origin, Murlanihotit could tell you about his own tribe a lot better than you could. The Hoti (the new one) are also descended from Hercegovina, however there's no mention of them being Serb but they fled Hercegovina as the Slavs came pouring in. The Kelmendi always were Catholic and Albanians, nothing points to Serb origin. That Shkodra once was the Serb capital doesn't mean anything else other than that it was under Serb control and that it was of importance. By your logic, Constantinople is and always was Turkish as it was the capital of the Ottoman empire. I say you have little understanding of history and that you're on your silly trolling parades as always. odel i'm from the kelmendi tribe and as far as i know there isn't anything slavic about us.you can't get more albanian then the tribes of north albania,kosova.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 6, 2011 14:55:17 GMT -5
I was just in the andrijevica-plav region, so that's how i know. you're referring to some "history" but where are the documents proving this? Krasnici & Hoti descend from a Serb clan (Vasojevici) and the Klimenti are of Serb origin (Hercegovina). Cherry on top that Skadar was a Serb capital for over half a millenia. So looks like albanians have little presence today, and had little in history too. Terror, can you give me a date, or rather the century, in which tribes like the Krasniqi, Hoti and Kelmendi started to identify as Albanians rather than their supposed Serb origins? Many Albanians, especially those from highland descent, can trace their family tree from 3-5 centuries ago to the present day. Many of them, such as myself, have knowledge of their family migratory patterns in the Balkans and the name of their ancestors. Paternally, I am of the Gash clan (another clan which some Serbs claim as their own), and there is not one Slavic name in our family tree (and even if there was, that would not be indicative of one's ethnicity), rather just common Christian/Catholic Latin names before we settled in Kosove and converted to Islam not long ago. On the other hand we've had members on Illyria Forum who have researched their family tree and found a few Albanian ancestors, such as PARTISAN, who ironically was one of the more 'patriotic Serb' members on here. There are no documents to prove the origins of the various highlander clans of Montenegro and North Albania either; many of them are based on legends and their origins depend on whether you believe the Albanian or Slav retellings. "The patriarch of the tribe, Clement, settled in Bestana, a place in the lower Kelmend area...Clement had seven sons, who became the founders of various fis. "Selce" was founded by Kola, the oldest son, "Vukel" was founded by Vuko; "Nikc" was founded by Nika...we do not know the names of the remaining two sons who are believed to have founded "Martinovic", from where further descendents founded Bukova in the Dukadjini area..." books.google.com/books?id=xx59wPgQzdwC&pg=PA21&dq=kelmendi+vuko&hl=en&ei=9HJmTrK4C4TXiALw9virCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kelmendi%20vuko&f=falseSlavic names of people founding slavic towns And don't try to make the cliche'd excuse: "they were just names, they were under serb influenceee!", that's a joke, if I had an ancestor named "Ujko" I think I know what you'd say. To add to this, by albanian and serb legend, the kelmendi came from Hercegovina...a culturally & ethnically homogenous Serb-Slavic region since the 6th century, this is evidence enough to conclude your Serb roots. he was a retard and didn't know anything. "as the slavs came pouring in"? lol when? in the 500's? god you're a hopeless wreck all evidence i hear from shqiptars is "i'm from [insert clan name] and we're all albanians nothing serb here! i swear!"just want to highlight how much of mutts you guys are, and pathetic with your denial...
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Post by odel on Sept 6, 2011 15:50:34 GMT -5
Martinovic, not Slavic, we call it Martinaj, and it's just a Christian name. Kola, diminutive for Nikolla, Christian name. Nika: not slavic either! Vukel: Slavic, and no, a Slavic name doesn't mean those people were Slavic, we have Greek names, Latin names, Albanian names, Slavic names, Turkish names etc... and for Albanians, it has never meant anything about the ethnic background, sorry. It just proves all those people invaded the lands we used to live in, and all of them influenced us, culturally and also sometimes genetically (Vlachs, Slavs ...). But it is clear that this way of organizing a society isn't Slavic at all, sorry (isn't that curious that those tribes exist in regions where Slavs assimilated natives even more than compared to other regions ... be they Vlach or Albanian?). And about the stories "one guy had four sons", those are just legends, there's nothing historically proven about those s**tty fairy tales that exist among Albanians too. And just so you know, there are some Albanian toponyms in Bosnia and Hercegovina ... "Ethnobotany in the new Europe: people, health, and wild plant resources" Lolz, using this as a source for the origin of the Kelmendi tribe, a source that also states that the Kelmendi originally were Catholic Albanians It's Krivo however, you just know what to expect from him. Take the name of the founder as well: Clement, a Catholic name. The name of the founder would be much more important as it was common that Albanians gave Slavic names to their children. Something seen in Kosova for example, where registers would show people with Albanian names like 'Ndrek' that would have a son with a Slavic name such as 'Vuk' for example.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 6, 2011 16:35:47 GMT -5
^Highlanders give their children names of their grandfathers... Albanian toponyms in Bosnia! That's a laugh! Shejtani if tribal society is so albanian, please explain to me why we Serbs have 'round 50 tribes, and the Albanophone tribes are about 7? And Clement could also be an orthodox slav name too, for example Clement of Ohrid en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Ohrid
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Post by MurlaniHotit on Sept 6, 2011 22:56:21 GMT -5
Amazing debate skills. Calling someone a retard for no reason other than because do not agree with him.
Ok, so let me put it simply for you. When did the Malesor's move from Hecegovina to Northern Albania and why did they settle there?
Simple! The Bosnian Kingdom fell, which then led to the Slavs that lived in the cities and lowlands to rush into the highlands for refuge. This pushed the Albanian speaking shepherds out of this region. They eventually settled in Northern Albania. The reasons for their settlement there was because the area was fairly depopulated because of the various Albanian rebellions at the time, and because they spoke a variant of the same language that the locals spoke.
If you look at the timing of the Malesor settlement in Northern Albania, you will see that it fits with this timeline.
Also, no matter what you say, we are not Serbs. Sorry, I know you like to claim us, but we're Albanian. I can name my entire family tree from my father's side of the family going all the way back to Keq Preka who came from Hercegovina.
Also, sorry to break it to you but the we did not descend from the Vasojevic. According to our history, there were 5 brothers, Lazar Keqi (Hoti), Ban Keqi (half of Trieshi), Vaso Keqi (Vasojevic), Piper Keqi (Piperi), and Kras Keqi (Krasniqi). There was no Oto as the Serb legend likes to claim. The Hoti tribe existed logn before the supposed "Oto" settled in Northern Albania. We the descendants of Lazar Keqi kept the original name of the area, Hoti, and settled there along with the few remaining old Hoti families.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 7, 2011 0:08:18 GMT -5
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Post by odel on Sept 7, 2011 2:57:02 GMT -5
^Highlanders give their children names of their grandfathers... Clement is a Catholic name and it's of Latin origin. That one Orthodox person has had this name doesn't mean that it's not Catholic as it simply just is. Lazar is Hebrew actually, and it's a biblical name that isn't Serbs, Slavs or Orthodox exclusively. www.newadvent.org/cathen/09096a.htm
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Post by plisbardhi on Sept 7, 2011 12:28:14 GMT -5
Your pretty warped if you think that source backs up your claim. The exact opposite is true! The source never refers to the Hoti as Serbs and only mentions them by their Albanian name, Hoti. Not only that but they are Balsha's enemies and allies of Venice. This wouldn't fit if they were recently founded by Serbs from Kosovo . Then we have this from the very same source: But then, assisted by some local Albanians, the Venetians defeated the Serbs in battle at Skadar in December 1422; this victory broke the Serbian seige.The area of Shkoder has always been noted as being inhabited by Albanians, it was only politically Slav for a time. Also if the Hoti were really Serbs this would be reflected in their names for atleast a few generations after their settlement before they were supposedly Albanized but instead even stretching back to this period the names were characteristically Albanian. You can't deny the Alb toponyms of BiH and MNE. Albs in those lands before their final assimilation and migration were very much like Vlachs, basically non-Romanized Illyro-Albanian remnant shepherds.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 8, 2011 11:56:48 GMT -5
Your pretty warped if you think that source backs up your claim. The exact opposite is true! The source never refers to the Hoti as Serbs and only mentions them by their Albanian name, Hoti. Not only that but they are Balsha's enemies and allies of Venice. This wouldn't fit if they were recently founded by Serbs from Kosovo . Then we have this from the very same source: But then, assisted by some local Albanians, the Venetians defeated the Serbs in battle at Skadar in December 1422; this victory broke the Serbian seige.The area of Shkoder has always been noted as being inhabited by Albanians, it was only politically Slav for a time. Also if the Hoti were really Serbs this would be reflected in their names for atleast a few generations after their settlement before they were supposedly Albanized but instead even stretching back to this period the names were characteristically Albanian. You can't deny the Alb toponyms of BiH and MNE. Albs in those lands before their final assimilation and migration were very much like Vlachs, basically non-Romanized Illyro-Albanian remnant shepherds. that wasn't my argument. it was that since the first records of hoti are found in the 1400's, the timeframe for the serb story makes sense - since they left kosovo in 1389 to montenegro. whether the hoti's in 1415 are referred to as "albanian" or not is immaterial; albanization could have occurred for many reasons - political, survival, etc, additionally it could be the naive author's way of filling in the gaps of the story...in which the hoti's language is not actually specified..
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Post by odel on Sept 8, 2011 13:00:05 GMT -5
Your pretty warped if you think that source backs up your claim. The exact opposite is true! The source never refers to the Hoti as Serbs and only mentions them by their Albanian name, Hoti. Not only that but they are Balsha's enemies and allies of Venice. This wouldn't fit if they were recently founded by Serbs from Kosovo . Then we have this from the very same source: But then, assisted by some local Albanians, the Venetians defeated the Serbs in battle at Skadar in December 1422; this victory broke the Serbian seige.The area of Shkoder has always been noted as being inhabited by Albanians, it was only politically Slav for a time. Also if the Hoti were really Serbs this would be reflected in their names for atleast a few generations after their settlement before they were supposedly Albanized but instead even stretching back to this period the names were characteristically Albanian. You can't deny the Alb toponyms of BiH and MNE. Albs in those lands before their final assimilation and migration were very much like Vlachs, basically non-Romanized Illyro-Albanian remnant shepherds. that wasn't my argument. it was that since the first records of hoti are found in the 1400's, the timeframe for the serb story makes sense - since they left kosovo in 1389 to montenegro. whether the hoti's in 1415 are referred to as "albanian" or not is immaterial; albanization could have occurred for many reasons - political, survival, etc, additionally it could be the naive author's way of filling in the gaps of the story...in which the hoti's language is not actually specified.. You're really grasping for straws as always, Krivo. There's no way that a whole tribe would have been assimilated in 26 years only.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 11, 2011 0:00:03 GMT -5
^you as always, speak out of ignorance & bluffs. intermarriage, politics & blood feuding is a huge factor in such scenarios. keep in mind my last sentence in that post.
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Post by odel on Sept 11, 2011 4:38:57 GMT -5
^you as always, speak out of ignorance & bluffs. intermarriage, politics & blood feuding is a huge factor in such scenarios. keep in mind my last sentence in that post. Krivo, you're grasping for straws: Why? Because you keep taking things that are less likely that are only speculation even and use them as arguments for your theory. Even with all those factors mentioned it's not likely that a whole tribe that was speaking Serbian and also descended from someone of royal lineage (lolz) would take refuge in Montenegro, and after 26 years only suddenly have become an Albanian tribe that had a memory of their origins completely different, their traditions and culture being traded away that fast, they turn away from Orthodoxy even and become Catholic which must be the biggest sin any Orthodox person could commit, all this and they don't even show signs of having been Serbs. Also, it goes against Occam's razor with the tribes first being Serb, then Albanian, then Serb again and etc. It's a typical myth: The sons of a king take refuge in Montenegro after the battle of Kosova in 1389 (the most mythical date and event in the Balkans, competing for the 1st place in the world), each of them forming a tribe of their own.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 11, 2011 17:43:18 GMT -5
"traditions and culture being traded away fast"?
either you have memory loss or are playing stupid, leaning towards the latter. They still to this day name their kids serbian names, play gusle, dance kolo and celebrate slava - the customs stayed serbian just with an albanjan cherry on top
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Post by odel on Sept 12, 2011 3:37:01 GMT -5
"traditions and culture being traded away fast"? either you have memory loss or are playing stupid, leaning towards the latter. They still to this day name their kids serbian names, play gusle, dance kolo and celebrate slava - the customs stayed serbian just with an albanjan cherry on top The Gusle/Lahute is Byzantine, the Kolo isn't anything original or Slavic/Serb specific, the name is but the Serbs didn't invent circle dances. We don't celebrate Slava we do however celebrate Saints albeit we celebrate Saint George's day on another day than the Serbs we have it on the Catholic day of celebration (Muslims included), whereas you have it on the Orthodox day of celebration. All, or at least most Christian countries of Europe celebrate the Christian saints, however it's not because they're all following Serb traditions. Talking of stupid, you're much more stupid than I am when you first claim things which aren't really Serb due to ignorance; claim that Serbs brought them to Albanians because you think they're such original concepts only Serbs could have thought of; you call me stupid even though you're wrong and basing your arguments on logical fallacies.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 12, 2011 16:11:14 GMT -5
gusle is not byzantine but steppe, this was definitively established earlier on this forum. and circle-dancing is slavic, greeks & byzantines adopted it after the slavic migrations.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 16, 2012 15:05:18 GMT -5
Gusle is not native to the balkans, its closest related instrument is in southern russia french stole alot, they were an empire after all.
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Post by Moe Lester on Feb 17, 2012 20:38:29 GMT -5
You took our officers hats ;D
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