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Post by sandokan on Sept 11, 2011 10:31:33 GMT -5
Hi fishcake, ironic choice of name by the way for someone that feels so strongly about not eating animal products.
Of course you are free and right to think any way you please, any way that the world makes sense to you. But I wanted to bring up a few arguments as a sort of counterpoint to what you said.
The first is that probably nothing is better than meat, pound for pound, for nourishing human bodies. Without it, as you yourself said, we would be missing many important nutrients which we would then have to get through pills, and still be at higher risk for stunted growth and illness. As a personal opinion, my good health is more important than the lives of so many chicken.
While I completely agree that a diet more rich in vegetables and reduced meat consumption is a great idea and comes close to our "natural" diet, I don't see the benefit of a vegetarian/vegan diet. Furthermore, I think the people that chose these diets do so out of certain religious convictions (for instance, Hindus and others) or as an extension of seeing food as ritual or magic, as health fads or even as lifestyle choices, as simple fashion accessories of the West that make a statement about how we'd like to be seen.
When people choose to be vegetarians out of the belief that eating meat is animal cruelty and is unnecessary, and I say this respectfully of course, I find it a somewhat of a naive view. We live in a world where suffering is inescapable, for ourselves and for every living creature on the planet. It's just the natural law of things that we all have to consume other living things, and yes plants are living things too, they have genes, they have offspring, they are interested in their own growth and survival and generally motivated by the same life force that breathes in every living cell, humans included. But plants don't have mouths to bleat and scream when ripped out of the soil, so they end up quietly in our Cesar salad and spinach dip. (I know I am stretching the argument really thin on this one).
I don't have the time to continue and wrap this up nicely, but that's some of the things I wanted to put up on the table for consideration. Then again, I am biased as a meat-eater who doesn't think we evolved to the top of the food chain so that we could eat salads and power bars.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 11, 2011 10:57:26 GMT -5
There are many things to be said concerning animal welfare. Maybe this kind of topic deserves its own thread.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Sept 11, 2011 11:02:49 GMT -5
So which would you prefer, ex-Muslim Donnie: Christianity, Islam, or Judaism? Ive never been an "ex-Muslim", unless you consider a secular celebrating of Bajram once a year and eating baklava once a while as central pillars of Islam. My upbringing has been a very secular one; neither of my parents consider themselves Muslim. I consume both alcohol and pork .. the former acceptable to some extent in most Muslims' eyes, the second smth unforgivable. And I prefer none of the above. They're all equally intolerant and exclusive of others in their own way.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 11, 2011 11:12:16 GMT -5
Alright, fair enough.
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Post by sandokan on Sept 11, 2011 13:17:20 GMT -5
There are many things to be said concerning animal welfare. Maybe this kind of topic deserves its own thread. That is true and I certainly don't advocate the poor and unethical treatment of animals.
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Post by uz on Sept 11, 2011 14:34:11 GMT -5
I think the argument should be regarding the treatement of "Life". This would work better in the marketing-aspect of things.
Yet, many people seem to share and express great sadness for when a cow is slaughtered to later be processed, and sold to families and less compassion for a hungry or suffering human-being. It seem society is stuck in "acceptance" when it comes to the human-condition, but when animals come in the picture we hop on the "we must change our ways" wagon.
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Post by darkness on Sept 11, 2011 14:44:01 GMT -5
Of course fur is murder and only retards would support such a cruel industry in the 21th century. Melty, maybe you should consider percetarianism. I've been pescetarian since 2008. isn't fish also meat?
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Sept 11, 2011 14:50:14 GMT -5
I did not choose vegetarianism purely our of my desire to minimize animal cruelty. That is partly the reason. Anyone who studies animal farming for a second would become sick to their stomach with what they see. Animals that are pumped with drugged and steroids and grown far above what they can handle. They are raised in disease filled environment, their waste produces a mass of pollutants that destroy the land, the water and even pollute the sky. It is a major contributor to global warming.
All of it is simply disgusting and sickening... I personally would rather not partake in it. I am even careful as to where I get my fish from. The fishing industry is also exhausted. Many countries have emptied their supply of fish and now are emptying those of other nations. Its nowhere near as bad, but the picture is rather grim as well.
It is all too much for me to handle.
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Post by darkness on Sept 11, 2011 14:59:00 GMT -5
I did not choose vegetarianism purely our of my desire to minimize animal cruelty. That is partly the reason. Anyone who studies animal farming for a second would become sick to their stomach with what they see. Animals that are pumped with drugged and steroids and grown far above what they can handle. They are raised in disease filled environment, their waste produces a mass of pollutants that destroy the land, the water and even pollute the sky. It is a major contributor to global warming. All of it is simply disgusting and sickening... I personally would rather not partake in it. I am even careful as to where I get my fish from. The fishing industry is also exhausted. Many countries have emptied their supply of fish and now are emptying those of other nations. Its nowhere near as bad, but the picture is rather grim as well. It is all too much for me to handle. i personally couldn't live without meat,sad but true.and if i'm not mistaking the reason of this is that almost all albanian dishes are consisted with meat.i eat every day meat,and i love it.i've seen those videos and to be honest it didn't make me antimeat.but you're right about the fishing part,that's becoming a real problem
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Post by uz on Sept 11, 2011 15:01:36 GMT -5
There's better ways to process these animals before they become shelved for sale. It shouldn't be about being "Anti-Meat", or a vegetarian for this reason.
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Post by toskaliku8711 on Sept 11, 2011 15:06:22 GMT -5
Most traditional Albanian dishes were not made of meat. This is a very recent development. Meat was a rarety in Albania even as late as 30-40 years ago (outside of the city). Most traditional Albanian food was composed of dairy products: cheese, milk etc. etc. I prefer byrek me spinaq than burek me mish. There are also plenty of alternative. In most cases, meat was a later addition. In fact, I think the Albanian household is typically more vegetarian than most American households. Meat still composes a small part of the overall meal. Patllixhana, speca, salatra, gjell... all of these are mostly composed of vegetables. I remember when eating at an Italian friends house, I was shocked at how much meat they ate (and how their family looked).
Im not saying that it is an imperative. I have a problem with factory farming and the disgusting health effects that it produces. There are alternatives. They are more expensive, but they taste better and they are cleaner (fewer carcinogens, diseases et al.). Unfortunately, this has become very difficult.
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Post by fishcake on Sept 11, 2011 15:13:55 GMT -5
Hi fishcake, ironic choice of name by the way for someone that feels so strongly about not eating animal products. Of course you are free and right to think any way you please, any way that the world makes sense to you. But I wanted to bring up a few arguments as a sort of counterpoint to what you said. The first is that probably nothing is better than meat, pound for pound, for nourishing human bodies. Without it, as you yourself said, we would be missing many important nutrients which we would then have to get through pills, and still be at higher risk for stunted growth and illness. As a personal opinion, my good health is more important than the lives of so many chicken. While I completely agree that a diet more rich in vegetables and reduced meat consumption is a great idea and comes close to our "natural" diet, I don't see the benefit of a vegetarian/vegan diet. Furthermore, I think the people that chose these diets do so out of certain religious convictions (for instance, Hindus and others) or as an extension of seeing food as ritual or magic, as health fads or even as lifestyle choices, as simple fashion accessories of the West that make a statement about how we'd like to be seen. When people choose to be vegetarians out of the belief that eating meat is animal cruelty and is unnecessary, and I say this respectfully of course, I find it a somewhat of a naive view. We live in a world where suffering is inescapable, for ourselves and for every living creature on the planet. It's just the natural law of things that we all have to consume other living things, and yes plants are living things too, they have genes, they have offspring, they are interested in their own growth and survival and generally motivated by the same life force that breathes in every living cell, humans included. But plants don't have mouths to bleat and scream when ripped out of the soil, so they end up quietly in our Cesar salad and spinach dip. (I know I am stretching the argument really thin on this one). I don't have the time to continue and wrap this up nicely, but that's some of the things I wanted to put up on the table for consideration. Then again, I am biased as a meat-eater who doesn't think we evolved to the top of the food chain so that we could eat salads and power bars. Animals are much more closer to humans (except that they're more loyal) then you would think. I look at cats and I could never imagine eating one so why should it be ok for me to eat a chicken or a pig? At the moment I don't have the right to speak because I'm not a vegaterian; ideally I would like to be a vegan. and anyway I didn't say everyone should be one so you're free to keep eating your sausages.
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Post by darkness on Sept 11, 2011 15:14:12 GMT -5
Most traditional Albanian dishes were not made of meat. This is a very recent development. Meat was a rarety in Albania even as late as 30-40 years ago (outside of the city). Most traditional Albanian food was composed of dairy products: cheese, milk etc. etc. I prefer byrek me spinaq than burek me mish. There are also plenty of alternative. In most cases, meat was a later addition. In fact, I think the Albanian household is typically more vegetarian than most American households. Meat still composes a small part of the overall meal. Patlligjana, speca, salatra, gjell... all of these are mostly composed of vegetables. I remember when eating at an Italian friends house, I was shocked at how much meat they ate (and how their family looked). Im not saying that it is an imperative. I have a problem with factory farming and the disgusting health effects that it produces. There are alternatives. They are more expensive, but they taste better and they are cleaner (fewer carcinogens, diseases et al.). Unfortunately, this has become very difficult. you're wright but isn't byrek a turkish specialty?my favourite vegetarian meals are pite me spanak,kungel especially for the last one i die for,and just ate it today but i also ate meat with potatoes
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Post by fishcake on Sept 11, 2011 15:18:41 GMT -5
Besides most of the processed meat comes from animals that were abused with steroids so don't think the meat you're eating is all that healthy.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 11, 2011 15:23:11 GMT -5
"i personally couldn't live without meat"
I bet you could.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 11, 2011 15:28:25 GMT -5
Guys, turning pescatarian or vegetarian is easier than you can imagine; and it's healthier, too. As long as you keep your diet right, there's no struggle. You might long for bacon and eggs from time to time, especially on an empty stomach, but with a little discipline backed by good convictions, you can overcome it.
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Post by uz on Sept 11, 2011 15:30:47 GMT -5
I'm hungry for a nice grilled horse-meat sandwich.
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Post by darkness on Sept 11, 2011 15:31:10 GMT -5
"i personally couldn't live without meat" I bet you could. mayby you're right mayby you're wrong,who knows but i know this if i'm going to live without meat,i think i'm not going to miss it and probably not enjoying alot of meals bcs of it. kittens,dogs are the meals of the chinese ehehehehe
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Post by fishcake on Sept 11, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5
Animals are much more closer to humans (except that they're more loyal) then you would think. I look at cats and I could never imagine eating one so why should it be ok for me to eat a chicken or a pig? At the moment I don't have the right to speak because I'm not a vegaterian; ideally I would like to be a vegan. and anyway I didn't say everyone should be one so you're free to keep eating your sausages. Also, I have cats of my own, and they are not for eating Why do you say that with such conviction and pride? In Asia they eat cats, dogs and horses. Anyway I'm not a peta advocate so I won't say anymore it's just that I've never liked the concept of meat eating.
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Post by sandokan on Sept 11, 2011 15:40:27 GMT -5
I'm hungry for a nice grilled horse-meat sandwich. I am not sure whether that's a metaphor for existential despair or capitalistic exploitation... actually, it brings to mind this movie I used to like when I was a kid. www.imdb.com/title/tt0065088/They shoot horses, don't they?
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