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Post by Moe Lester on Sept 22, 2011 1:31:09 GMT -5
Why do they end in -ov, -ev and -sky? I thought those were strictly Russian surname styles? Same goes for Macedonians. Why not the south Slavic -ich? Why aren't they unique? I thought Bulgarians had a unique culture, separate form the rest of the Slavs. Like how Ukrainians have -enko, Czechs have -chek and Poles have yk?
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Sokol
Senior Moderator
Македонецот
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Post by Sokol on Sept 22, 2011 1:36:03 GMT -5
For Macedonian names, ov/ev, ski, basically means 'of the'. Eg. Petrevski literally means of the Petre family. I'd like to know what 'ic' signifies, because in Macedonian it doesn't mean anything.
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Post by Moe Lester on Sept 22, 2011 1:38:53 GMT -5
Really? Didn't know that. So why don't other Slavs use the ov/ev, ski surnames? They sound better than ich, yk, and chek. Enko also sounds great.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 22, 2011 2:01:38 GMT -5
Why do they end in -ov, -ev and -sky? I thought those were strictly Russian surname styles? Same goes for Macedonians. Why not the south Slavic -ich? Why aren't they unique? I thought Bulgarians had a unique culture, separate form the rest of the Slavs. Like how Ukrainians have -enko, Czechs have -chek and Poles have yk? because '-ich' is serbian, croats usually have strange slavo-latin last names like gotovina, tudjman, and prsoi know this isn't what you're topic's about but i'm getting there. most slavs have random last names, others have ones which signify possession, and others ones that signify tribal kinship. it all depends on the type of society the slavic group was. my hypothesis would be that due to bulgarians and russians being traditionally both patriarchal serfdom societies, owning other people was commonplace and so the '-ev', '-ov' suffixs for surnames displayed ownership by the male founder of the family. while the ukranian 'enko' is more of a descriptor, not expressing ownership, but rather a description of the 'sort' of person one is (via through the ancestrial name). and this might reflect the more anarchical and free nature of early ukrainian society (indeed they were the first place in the world to have an anarchist state) a comparison in english between the two would be, ____ John's (Russian) ____ John-like (Ukrainian) meanwhile the serbian '-ich' suffix is also a descriptor, however in a more specific sense. literally meaning 'the little one', thus no ownership, rather kinship (reincarnation) is alluded to here. this illustrates the tribal environment of the serb society, where children were often seen as simply spiritual rebirths of past ancestors. thus the english equivalent would make, _____ Little John (Serbian) poles predominantly have -sky also, btw, which is a direct adjective very similar to -enko but less archaic. ______ Johnish (Polish) Hope this wasn't too confusing and even a little insightful ;D
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Post by Moe Lester on Sept 22, 2011 2:16:08 GMT -5
That was actually quite confusing. All I learnt was they all mean the same thing with a tiny difference between different slavs.
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Post by kroraina on Sept 22, 2011 4:47:07 GMT -5
because '-ich' is serbian, croats usually have strange slavo-latin last names like gotovina, tudjman, and prso-ich is the Russian patronymic suffix, i.e. all Russian males have -ich: their father's name + -ich. (The patronymic for the Russian females is different: their father's name + -ovna/-evna). It is the Russian surnames that usually ed in -ov/-ev. In Bulgaria both the patronymic and the surnames usually end in -ov/-ev. But ov/-ev is also very popular with the Czechs. So nothing exclusively Serbian or Bulgarian or whatever with either -ich or -ov. BTW, the first attested examples of both -ich and -ov are from medieval Bulgaria (IX-X c.) - Mostich, the high dignitary (ichurgu boila) of Boris I and Simeon, and Tudor Doksov, the nephew of Boris I...
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Post by Anittas on Sept 22, 2011 12:00:36 GMT -5
"and this might reflect the more anarchical and free nature of early ukrainian society (indeed they were the first place in the world to have an anarchist state)"
are u thinking of the cossacks? I wouldnt view them as anarchist.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 22, 2011 12:53:23 GMT -5
because '-ich' is serbian, croats usually have strange slavo-latin last names like gotovina, tudjman, and prso-ich is the Russian patronymic suffix, i.e. all Russian males have -ich: their father's name + -ich. (The patronymic for the Russian females is different: their father's name + -ovna/-evna). It is the Russian surnames that usually ed in -ov/-ev. In Bulgaria both the patronymic and the surnames usually end in -ov/-ev. But ov/-ev is also very popular with the Czechs. So nothing exclusively Serbian or Bulgarian or whatever with either -ich or -ov. BTW, the first attested examples of both -ich and -ov are from medieval Bulgaria (IX-X c.) - Mostich, the high dignitary (ichurgu boila) of Boris I and Simeon, and Tudor Doksov, the nephew of Boris I... yes however it was never a surname....in that form it's uniquely serbian which makes sense because basic bulgar and russian society weren't unequivocally tribal as the serb was.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 22, 2011 12:58:12 GMT -5
"and this might reflect the more anarchical and free nature of early ukrainian society (indeed they were the first place in the world to have an anarchist state)" are u thinking of the cossacks? I wouldnt view them as anarchist. though they sort of had a society of their own, no no i did not mean them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_(Ukraine)
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Sept 22, 2011 13:20:59 GMT -5
Correction. It is most common in Serbia today, but it is not 'exclusively' Serbian in any form.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 22, 2011 13:31:22 GMT -5
Correction. It is most common in Serbia today, but it is not 'exclusively' Serbian in any form. i agree, sorry i should have said "serb" not serbian. since it is an ethnic character, not regional/national.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Sept 22, 2011 14:40:52 GMT -5
It is not 'exclusively' Serb either.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 22, 2011 14:45:55 GMT -5
exceptions make the rule
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elemag
Senior Moderator
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Post by elemag on Sept 22, 2011 15:49:44 GMT -5
How did you come to this conclusion? What does Kirilenko mean then? What is Kiril describing for that person? It looks like a simple name and nothing more to me.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 22, 2011 16:48:36 GMT -5
it is the -enko that does the describing, the equivalent of '-an/-en' in serbian.
for example, a noun (or a name) like 'sreca' (happiness), can be used to describe the object, 'srecan' (happy).
kirilenko would be referencing the founder of the family, kiril
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elemag
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Post by elemag on Sept 23, 2011 10:25:11 GMT -5
Enko is only a family name ending, it doesn't take part in the formation of adjectives. I have never heard a single adjective that ends on 'enko'. But even if there are such words, it still does not explain what happens if that person bears the family name of Kirilovic, for instance. Where is the difference? Or let us look at the Ukrainian names ending on 'chuk'. In Bulgarian it means 'hammer'. Shall we suppose all the ancestors of these guys used to make hammers or were hit by that tool in a certain period of their lives?
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Post by terroreign on Sept 23, 2011 14:56:51 GMT -5
do you know ukranian? (it does vary a bit from russian)
"chuk" if memory serves right, is the ukranian form of russian "chik", or serbian "chich"....meanin "little one" "little person", using the same logic behind serbian last names.
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elemag
Senior Moderator
Posts: 369
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Post by elemag on Sept 24, 2011 14:23:24 GMT -5
Ukrainian is a mixture of Russian and Polish, to put it shortly. Cyrillic alphabet with two or three strange letters and some funny sounds but still there is no 'enko' as an adjective. And is there a way you would stop claiming Serbian influence on everything Slavic? You are getting quite ridiculous. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Sept 24, 2011 16:49:31 GMT -5
he cant. he believes all slavs are serbs AND he believes all iranians are serbs... No comment!!!
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Post by terroreign on Sept 24, 2011 17:09:05 GMT -5
Ukrainian is a mixture of Russian and Polish, to put it shortly. Cyrillic alphabet with two or three strange letters and some funny sounds but still there is no 'enko' as an adjective. And is there a way you would stop claiming Serbian influence on everything Slavic? You are getting quite ridiculous. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. i think you just lack knowledge on ukrainian and are rambling to save face. and you're getting off the topic, i'll give you a moment to readjust yourself. ioan - care to contribute to the topic? or still ramble?
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