There is a game Shqipni13, I am glad you aknowledge it. A game that has teared our lands apart. This thread is not about me being "salty", this thread is about exposure for anyone who cares to learn more, it's not meant as instigation. That's all.
Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 28, 2011 19:51:37 GMT -5
No they did not. It is deceptive to go on dead bodies found. Do you believe that Russia found all 30 million dead from WWII? Or that we have a record of every Jewish body dead from the Holocaust? Or that we know every Iraqi who died from the US war? Again, Albanians do not count the dead but the missing plus the dead as well. The fact is that if you go to prishtina there are still 4000+ faces of people who have never returned posted next to the UNIMK building. These are faces and names of people who died. One would expect that they would have at some point contacted their families, if they were "hiding in Italy." Especially as visa restrictions have become more leniant in recent years. One would have to be pretty cruel to not give your family a sign that you are still alive after all these years. A letter, a phone call, a visit...
Its a non-sequitur that the US planned a war against Yugoslavia and that Yugoslavia did not commit crimes anymore than it is a non-sequitur to say that because US helped the Lybians overthrow Khadafi it means that Khadafi's crimes were faked or that because the US helped the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan and waged a propaganda war in their favor against the Russians that the Russians were not brutal. In all of these cases, both are true: Khadafi was ruthless and the Americans were involved, the Americans supported the brutal Mujahadeen and the Russians were also brutal and murderous. Neither contradicts the other. It was the Milosevic crimes that gave the US the ability to go and wage the war, no matter what the objective.
You are confusing two things. I am ready and willing to say that the US does not care much for human rights. However, this does not mean that
Btw, I am not really that interested in "Reporting War." I know about the way war is campaigned for by the media. "Manufacturing Concent" and "The Great War for Civilization" are both more than enough. If anything, the book can only re-iterate what Fisk or Chomsky have said a long time ago.
"[Our attack] has been counterproductive, and our destruction of civilian life has now become senseless and excessively brutal... The American-led force has expanded targets to inhabited areas and resorted to the use of anti-personnel cluster bombs. The result has been damage to hospitals, offices and residences of a half-dozen ambassadors, and the killing of innocent civilians... [Our] insistence on the use of cluster bombs, designed to kill or maim humans, is condemned almost universally and brings discredit to our nation."
— Jimmy Carter, May 27, 1999
"Behind the propaganda of a humanitarian war, U.S./NATO bases have been constructed in Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Hungary, Macedonia, and Kosovo. The Balkans, a region of enormous strategic importance, rich natural resources and important industrial capacity is now occupied by thousands of US troops. All this has happened without any informed debate or discussion."
— Sara Flounders, Censored 2000, (Seven Stories, 2000) p. 44
^^Very well put. Uz, look at serb propaganda...Battle of 1389, only serbs fought in that battle? Does the Djordje Martinovic case ring a bell? (Novus looking for his AK while calling me a dirty shiptar). There is so much out there. But I don't feel like going back and forth with you.
Last Edit: Oct 28, 2011 20:18:07 GMT -5 by Shqipni13
Në Kaçanik shkëmb e gurr, vritesh qe vritesh për flamur. Për flamurin e Skenderit, luftojnë djemt e Idriz oooo Seferit.
That thread must have been before my time. If could find that and pm me the link I would appreciate it.
Honestly, I am not sure where it is. It's lost somewhere. All I remember is that Pyros dedicated that thread to bash me, and I responded in that context.
We should not forget our past glories, no matter how brutal "certain" institutions" representing "a side" were. It may not have been a "national" alliance, but it sure as hell was group motivated from each side.
Just remember; A Balkans divided is a Balkans conquered.
Our ancestors from all over the region knew this, we know this now too.
Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 28, 2011 20:28:08 GMT -5
" Just remember; A Balkans divided is a Balkans conquered."
Lol, such empty "holier than thou" nonsense. Its simple, you argue that the right of self-determination for two million Albanians who live inside Kosovo should be disregarded either because of the fact that Serbs live in mythological fairy-land or because nations should have "integrity". With this argument, you stand with the most oppressive and repressive of statist structures, including Russia, China and other minor nations like Turkey, nations which engage in ethnic cleansing, repression and outright murder.
You lose the moral argument. If you want Balkan unity, accept that Kosovo belongs to the people who live there and not to Belgrade wishful thinking.
The Kosovo situation made things worse Toskali, look deep and you will see the main purpose of this destabalization was to rock the Balkans one more time before the new millenium. To hold all of us back and to fuel the flames even further.
Please note; Serbs in Kosovo have all the right to reject the Albanian regime, why do you argue otherwise?
^This. The serbs want to run s**t and we should all be accepting.
Serbia was never about conquering. Let's leave the Yugo wars out of this debate/thread and stick to Kosovo.
The elitists changed their mind over night of how they felt about the KLA and the Alb movement against Serbia. Serbs/Serbia don't care about "exterminating" - this is the propaganda they fed you. Milosevic went into Kosovo to protect his Serbian people, he had the right (no matter how sour this sounds). In the books I posted in the previous page, they all state/list the crimes the KLA commited against the Serb people.
As I have mentioned before, Serbs will say we should be able to live together, Albs on the otherhand will disagree.
Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 28, 2011 20:44:12 GMT -5
Please note; Serbs in Kosovo have all the right to reject the Albanian regime, why do you argue otherwise?
If they are willing to engage in a proper political structure, that is on them. However, a small minority does not have the right to terrorize or distabilize the right of self-determination for two million others. Northern Kosova is as good as gone, but the Serbs inside the enclaves have to accept the state they now live in or pack their bags for Serbia. Intergrate into the political structure or you can go to Belgrade and live in your fantasies. Of course, the Serbs do not want to stop living in fantasies. They live on with the dehuminization and racism they hold towards Albanians.
Btw, Milosevic adopted the hard right policies advocated by Dobrica Cosic, who has to this day supported the idea of expelling Albanians from Kosovo (as he has lauded the Srebranica massacre). Dobrica has based his views on the article "The Expulsion of the Albanians" by Vaso Cubrilovic. Milosevic adopted all of these views and the radical right-wing fantasies of the Serbs, who saw the need to expel the Albanian majority from Kosovo. On top of that, the last 100 years of history will easily show anyone that Serbia has sought to change the demographic in Kosovo... the only thing is that it has failed repeatedly (and thankfully) both because of internal and external factors.
In the books I posted in the previous page, they all state/list the crimes the KLA commited against the Serb people.
Its called collateral damage. Again, without Serbian repression, there would be no UCK. This is spelled out loud and clearly in the book "Civil Resistance in Kosovo" by Howard Clark(a UN peace coordinator) which narrates the pre-UCK peace movement in Kosovo against the Serbian paramilitaries. Clark states it explicitly that it was the constant paramilitary action (which saw right-wing militias going around villages, destroying property, raping and killing) in coordination with repressive police activities (which put on curfews, prohibited public gatherings, fired employees and terrorized the local population) that led to the rise of pro-war movements as a result of the failure of the peace movement.
You have cited a couple of books and suddenly want to pat yourself on the back as having persuaded any of us. The fact is, on Kosovo, scholarship is not in anyway favorable to the Serbs. While they may criticize the US, they nonetheless maintain a consistent criticism of the brutality of Milosevic's police regime in the region. Citing non-sequitur criticism of US power or promoting Serbian victimization (which is akin to German post-war victimization) does not do you any good. Its called "motivated social cognition", look it up.
If they are willing to engage in a proper political structure, that is on them. However, a small minority does not have the right to terrorize or distabilize the right of self-determination for two million others. Northern Kosova is as good as gone, but the Serbs inside the enclaves have to accept the state they now live in or pack their bags for Serbia. Intergrate into the political structure or you can go to Belgrade and live in your fantasies.
A small minority... You mean like how Albanians are a small minority of Serbia? lol
If the Albs cared about stability you would have already let go of the North. Then again it's not Pristinas' call to begin with and the obvious intent is not peace, given that your "country" is run by criminals anyway.
Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 28, 2011 20:55:49 GMT -5
Albanians were over 15% of Serbia... that is no small minority. Serbs do not remotely constitute such a number in Kosovo. However, the fact is we are not talking about sporadic pockets of a population (which is what we talk about when we mean the Serbian enclaves), we are talking (with Kosovo) about a strong majority population within a designated region. That is different. Chechnya is small compared to Russia as well, that doesnt meant that the Chechens do not deserve the right of self-determination, which Russia has brutally denied them.
You need to brush up on some ethno-political science.
Chapter 4a, Article I — "The economy of Kosovo, shall function in accordance with free market principles." Kosovo has vast mineral resources, including the richest mines for lead, molybdenum, mercury and other metals in all of Europe. The capital to exploit these resources, which are today mainly state-owned, would undoubtedly come from the U.S. and western European imperialists.
— The Rambouillet Accord: A Declaration of War Disguised as a Peace Agreement
On 22 April, Robert Fisk-Sunday Telegraph, one of Britain’s better informed print journalists, wrote an article in the Independent under the headline: "Nato resorts to war by proxy." The KLA is today exactly that: a proxy for NATO. This relationship is a product of the crushing military setbacks suffered by the KLA on the one hand, and the failure of NATO’s air strikes to deliver a quick and painless victory on the other.
Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 28, 2011 21:02:06 GMT -5
Again, you seem to jump from one non-sequitur to another. Libya will also have a free market now which will be exploited by the west. Does that mean that Khadaffi was a good guy? No, he was a viscious criminal. Again, nonsequitur. First of all, the actual exploitation of these mines has never really occurred as far as I am concerned.
The Ramboullet article you posted dates from 1999. Can you show me some evidence that what was predicted there has come to pass? It has been a long time.
Btw, deceptive to use Fisk. I have Fisk's major book (The Conquest of the Middle East) right next to me. He mentions Kosovo in 625 and 894, among a number of pages. He is strongly condemnatory of Serbia and supportive of the Bosnians and Kosovo Albanians in particular.
You seem to refuse a debate and instead follow the good old illyria method of drowning out everyone with out of context quotations.
Post by toskaliku8711 on Oct 28, 2011 21:23:40 GMT -5
What's there to debate, Toskali?
A debate would be you responding without a logical fallacy.
You argue from a Globalist perspective, those who are desprete to maintain their agenda in Balkans. This perspective, to you, is the only perspective that is valid.
I would say that this is a begging the question fallacy, or maybe an illicit negative as well. Whatever my "views", you argue the points. I consider my perspective to be the only valid one because I am the only one who is promoting self-determination of peoples. You globalist categorization is, quite frankly, BS. I have no "perspective", I argue simply from this basis: what is democratic?
Research the people behind this mess and you will see a corelation to other attrocities across the world.
So many logical fallacies here. It is hard to even start listing them all. I guess begging the question to begin...
I argue simply from this basis: what is democratic?
The Kosovo-war entirely was un-democratic;
The media involvement/coverage was un-democratic, NATO/EU/USA going against international law was un-democratic. The cover-ups behind the war is un-democratic.
... even more can be listed.
You need to take a courageous leap outside of the box Tosk, this small/cramped world you live in lacks too many possibilities. This critical-thinking course is sending you the wrong messege, but I guess later in the semester you may get to the part where "logical-fallacies" can get placed to be so, to strenghten the proponents argument.
Do the research is all I'm saying. I am not obligated to do your homework for you.
The press allowed Bill Clinton to commit war crimes against the people of Serbia
The March 11, 2006 death of former Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic while in U.N. custody at The Hague was the tragic end to an unjust war and prosecution. The U.N. war crimes tribunal had tried unsuccessfully for four years to convict Milosevic.
Since 2004, the health of the former Yugoslavian President had been in decline. For several months before his death, Milosevic claimed that he was being poisoned and requested a trip to Russia for medical treatment. Of course, all requests were denied by the U.N.
A January blood test given to Milosevic showed traces of the rarely used antibiotic rifampicin. The drug is used to treat leprosy and is known to severely counteract the effects of other medications. Milosevic took daily pills for both heart disease and hypertension. The results of the test were not revealed to Milosevic until a few days before his death.
The day before the Serbian President was found dead in his cell, he wrote a letter to the Russian foreign ministry in which he expressed concerns that he was being poisoned. Milosevic family attorneys have released the letter. Milosevic wrote: "I think that the persistence with which medical treatment in Russia was denied in the first place is motivated by the fear that through careful examination it would be discovered that there were active, willful steps taken to destroy my health throughout the proceedings of the trial, which could not be hidden from the Russian specialists. Those who foist on me a drug against leprosy surely can't treat my illness; likewise, those against whom I defended my country in times of war and who have an interest to silence me."
Famed Russian heart surgeon Dr. Leo Bokeria has expressed concerns over the treatment Milosevic received while in custody at The Hague, and maintains that his fatal heart could have been easily prevented.
Shortly before Milosevic was found dead, The Associated Press reported that an unidentified tribunal official said he was told by the prison warden (Timothy McFadden) that he could no longer guarantee the health of the former Yugoslavian leader. McFadden now refuses any comment on the matter.
Milosevic was actually the sixth Serbian being held at The Hague to die while being tried for war crimes.
While it may eventually be proven that the Dutch doctors attending to Milosevic are guilty of murder, the Clinton administration and the corrupt U.N. are the ones who should have been tried for war crimes. In 1999, the Clinton administration orchestrated a war against the sovereign nation of Serbia. Clinton justified his actions, by making claims of "genocide" and "mass graves" against the Serbian government. Those claims have since been proven to be unfounded.
The Clinton administration claimed that the Serbs were engaged in ethnic cleansing and announced that Milosevic had murdered more than 100,000 innocent people. In reality, less than 3,000 bodies have been recovered since 1999. Around 500 of those are believed to be KLA fighters, and many of the rest were more than likely killed in the daily U.S. led bombing raids.
In fact, in February 2007, the International Court of Justice formally cleared Serbia of any charges of genocide. Of course, the decision came a year too late for Milosevic.
President Clinton actually placed our military side-by-side with terrorists. The Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) was made up of mercenaries and foreign nationals mostly from Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Afghanistan.
In Feb. of 1999, Sen. Bob Smith (R-NH) said: "We are in essence becoming the Air Force for the KLA."
Serbia did not pose any threat to the U.S. and the actions taken by Milosevic were an internal security matter. The Serbian military was fighting against Muslim the KLA. However, the liberal media never once questioned Clinton's motives nor do they to this day.
Bill Clinton convinced NATO to join in the fight against the people of Serbia. In doing so, NATO actually violated the terms of their own charter. Not one NATO member nation had been attacked by Serbia, yet most of them sent troops to march on that country. The United States was attacked on 9/11, yet NATO is now nowhere to be found.
The air-war which was directed by Gen. Wesley Clark, targeted civilians. Under Clark's orders, U.S. warplanes bombed schools, hospitals, churches, office buildings, and private homes. They even bombed a nature park! In Belgrade, all three bridges which spanned the Danube were destroyed. They knocked out power and water to the Serbs. The bombing went on for 79 days.
While the U.S. was criticized for continuing operations in Iraq during the Muslim holy period of Ramadan...Not a word of dissent was heard, when Clinton bombed the Serbs on Easter Sunday!
A fair comparison could be made between Gen. Wesley Clark and Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering. Both conducted bombing campaigns against nations which posed no threat, and both specifically targeted civilians. Both are in fact, war criminals. However, while Goering was sentenced to death by an international tribunal for his crimes...Wesley Clark became a presidential candidate for the Democratic Party. It appears that for Goering--his timing was simply off!
Just as the press never questioned Clinton's attacks on Serbian civilians, they sat back and accepted as gospel, every word uttered by NATO spokesman Jamie Shea.
Among Shea's many tall tales, during a May 1999 press conference, he announced that 100,000 babies had been born in the refugee camps (supposedly filled with people running away from Milosevic and not Clinton's bombing). Which was an outright lie. All five of the camps held less than 80,000 people combined, and less than 30,000 were adult women. However, the Clinton-adoring press never questioned this ridiculous statement.
So what was accomplished by Clinton’s war crimes against the people of Serbia?
Since 1999, the Muslim terrorists of the KLA have demolished 100 Serbian churches in Kosovo and displaced 250,000 Serbs. These atrocities could not have been accomplished without the help of Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, and Gen. Wesley Clark. Because of their actions, Kosovo is now a haven for Muslim terrorists and the main distribution point for the world’s opium trade.
The U.S. led was against the people of Serbia was a crime for which Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, and Gen. Wesley Clark should stand trial. However, do not expect the corrupt U.N. nor the left-wing press to ever hold them accountable.
We now have a press more concerned with the sex lives of reality TV stars John and Kate Gosselin, than with the motivations behind an unprovoked was of aggression which left a sovereign nation in ruins, a head of state dead under mysterious circumstances, and that nation’s capital controlled by Muslim terrorists and international drug dealers
Emperor AAdmin: Sorry Rexxy, that is just a win for Swiss. Plain and simple. Where certain players origins are from ... who cares... it was all for swiss colors my friend...I am afraid noone is connecting Albanians to this game in any shape or form hahahaha
Dec 4, 2022 20:42:53 GMT -5
Rusyn: Who knows, maybe they think Switzerland is part of Albania also
Dec 5, 2022 0:52:38 GMT -5
rex362: oh the politics of football.......ok then ....dont let me find you as being hypocrites if I find/see any post of you highlighting any serbian players on any other countries sport teams
Dec 5, 2022 11:16:33 GMT -5
rex362: fricken hooligans
Dec 5, 2022 17:15:17 GMT -5
bosnett23: Pozzz svima ako imate želju da proučite više o historiji Bosne, Ilirima idr....preporučujem svakako www.bosnett.com dobar arhiv knjiga i postova. Stranica ima funkcije poput FB. L.P.
Jan 4, 2023 6:54:07 GMT -5
Rusyn: hahaha bosnia have no history.. plz get real dude
Jan 4, 2023 9:46:17 GMT -5
Pyrros: AAADmine why do let you Caucasians Cherkesian ANTI-GREEKS, ANTI-ORHTODOX ppl (Leandros Nikon) to lock threads ?
Jan 5, 2023 3:52:22 GMT -5
Pyrros: bosnett jos vise anglosaksonski lazi?
Jan 5, 2023 3:54:35 GMT -5
Emperor AAdmin: Vatra feel free to open a threat about that topic in Greece Forum and we can discuss there. Thanks.
Jan 8, 2023 6:14:59 GMT -5
Pyrros: Admine, you are a fair and cool Serb. I acknowledge that. But too many freedoms have a bad ending. It lets albs and other cherkesians (like Leandros Nikon) multiply.
Jan 8, 2023 9:08:38 GMT -5
rex362: ahahahaha.....too many freedoms ahahaha...cherk-whatever ahahahah....fair & cool serb ahahahahah...you ass kissing communist ahahahahah bad ending-for who ? you ? aahhaahhahhaaa
Jan 8, 2023 13:21:46 GMT -5
leandros nikon: pyro is funny guy of the forum.I am cherkesian?No man i am Asia minor Greek!on the other hand you are a confused Greek,mperdemenos eisai!
Jan 8, 2023 15:45:09 GMT -5
Rusyn: @leandros nikon Vatra is "fire" in Serbian, and Pyrros is Greek equvialent of that name. Also Pyrros was used to be known as Kralj Vatra in his older accounts hence Admin calls him both ways.
Jan 8, 2023 16:20:56 GMT -5