ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 5, 2011 16:45:48 GMT -5
I've updated the list with the following: If you have more information on this and would like to share it, go ahead and I'll make the necessary adjustments. If you could, post some more info and I'll re-phrase my earlier statements. Or if you help me phrase it properly, I'll just use that. If you provide me with the info, I'd be happy to update the list. Also, this is how I phrased it: If you believe that this is not an accurate depiction of reality, please re-phrase it and I'll copy/paste it into the list. I hope to straighten out all the wrongs and confusing bits through collaboration with all parties interested in Romanian history.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 5, 2011 17:17:31 GMT -5
I admit that this thread came about because of certain remarks, that may or may not have been childish. And as I've already mentioned, I should probably be thanking Anittas for pushing me to become a better rounded individual. Whoever said that "conflict breeds development" wasn't kidding, I read this on this forum.. I just can't recall who posted it, sorry.
The truth is, I have multiple objectives here..
1. To expand my knowledge of Romanian history. This objective has already been reached as I already know more about your history than I did before I start this thread. I'm sure I'll learn more in the coming week, with or without your help.
2. To understand where Anittas' national pride comes from. The list of Romanian historic achievements is already fairly impressive, but I have yet to see how he has arrived at the conclusions that "Romanians are superior to Bulgarians", and that "Bulgarians are some sort of uncultured savages" etc. when in fact Bulgaria's historic achievements are no less significant than Romania's. And in my personal opinion, Bulgaria's historic achievements outweigh Romania's.. but as I already mentioned, this is just my own personal opinion, which may be somewhat bias as I myself am Bulgarian.
3. To understand where the overall Romanian national pride comes from. I've been to your country, and I saw more Romanian flags in Romania than I've seen Bulgarian flags in Bulgaria. Today, it seems Romanians pride themselves in being Romanian more than Bulgarians pride themselves in being Bulgarian, and I would like to know what it takes to boost a nation's national pride.. this for me is rather perplexing, as to me it seems that Bulgarians have many more reason to be proud than Romanians do. (again, this is just my own personal opinion)
4. To attempt to form some sort of constructive discussion as opposed to having to read posts that are solely based on emotion rather than fact or logic.
5. To bring out some of the old Romanian members, as chewing on the same topics of discussion with the same people is beginning to get kind of boring. It seems this objective is well on its way.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 6, 2011 5:27:43 GMT -5
If you were going to use our honest effort in this discussion to instigate, you should've at least informed us about your plans beforehand. That would've been the honorable thing to do.
Yes, I believe that we are superior to you. Let's make a few things straight:
1. We and the Russians liberated you. Now, if you were a Native Indian from North America or a Samurai, you would've remained to us in eternal debt, and your accomplishments and honor were to become ours.
For instance, there was this Bulgarian guy who invented the computer and stuff. That's a very nice accomplishment. Does it belong to you? No. It belongs to Romania and Russia. And yes, you had a glorious past defeating armies and stuff. Does the glory belong to you? No. The glory belongs to Romania and Russia. When you liberate us from a foreign power, then we'll call it even. Then, and only then, may you dare to compare yourselves to us. You follow me?
2. If that day ever comes--and it probably never will--we would still have a rich late Medieval history and Renaissance, which Bulgaria for the most part lacks. We have writers and artists whose legacy lead to Romania's 20th century contribution to art and literature. Even to this day Romania has international writers. Bulgaria, maybe not so much.
3. We are better people with bigger hearts. We care more for our fellow man and animals. We have love in our hearts. You, like most of your people, do not. It's a genetic thing. Bulgarians simply don't have the ability to truly love. You may feel lust and desire, and have a strong sense of hatred, but no love.
4. We are honorable, you are not. We resisted the barbarian hordes, you were a part of the barbarian hordes. We are the only country in Eastern Europe to have preserved the noble Roman identity and language, even if not to a perfect state. We honored our allies, the Poles and the Czech; you backstabbed the Byzantines who gave you the land you're now settled on and you backstabbed us after sacrificing our sons to fight for your liberty.
I hope you now understand where I'm coming from.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 6, 2011 11:02:29 GMT -5
I informed you about my objectives as they came about. The following, I posted in the original thread from the very start.
The remaining objectives came about as realizations after the orginal thread had been posted. I shared those with you as soon as I was able to formulate my thoughts into words.
Your statment is entirely negated by the fact that you’re trying to manipulate reality. You present this as if the primary purpose of Russia (and all the non-Bulgarians who helped her) was to liberate Bulgaria. This is completely false. Russia fought the Russo-Turkish War because it wanted control in the region, and more importantly it wanted control over the Bosphorous. The fact that Bulgaria was liberated was a mere after effect.
Furthermore, you keep saying “we and the Russians liberated you”, but this statement is also wrong. These are the contributions of the countries participanting on the Russian side:
Russia - 737,355 Serbia – 81,500 Romania – 60,000 Bulgaira – 40,000 Montenegro – 25,000
I’m grateful that Romania chose to participate against the Ottomans, however, the fact that you keep overemphasizing this event as if the sole purpose was to liberate Bulgaria leads me to beleive that you’re not well educated on the matter and you’re simply looking for cheap praise. So again, thank you kindly.
And btw, in case anyone is wondering why the number of Bulgarian particpants was only 40,000 it would be best to remember it was a crime for a non-Muslim to bare arms within the Ottoman Empire.
Even though the father of the computer was an ethnic Bulgarian, his accomplishments are attributed to the United States.
Your comments here reveal that you ain’t nothing but a mouse at heart, thirsty for attention and cheap praise.
Bulgaira/Macedonia was in the heart of the Ottoman Empire. I ain’t one to complain, but the fact of the matter is that in comparisson to all of our neighbors we bared the heaviest burdon. On the other hand, the Principality of Wallachia and Moldavia were Ottoman vassals who in the later years of the Otoman Empire took part fighting against those Europeans who were trying to battle the Ottomans.
So while your people had peace, as you had kneeled to the Ottomans paying them tribute and being at their becking call thus giving you freedom to work on cultural developments, my people were merely struggling to survive. Given the circumstances, for Bulgaria/Macedonia was achievemnt enough to have been able to sustain our identity, our religion, and our language.
I still have yet to see on what it is you base your notions of superiority. Whether you have “bigger hearts”, we can’t tell today, but history shows us otherwise. You brag about “liberating Bulgaria”, when it was your people that were fighing for the Ottomans and thus keeping Bulgaria enslaved. It seems historically Romanians have always been the ones follwoing the tide created by their neighbors, rather than creating it themselves. First fighiting for the Bulgarian Empires, then fighting for the Ottoman Empire, and then fighting for Russia.
And as for you personally, you may think that you have a big heart but the heart of a mouse can only be so big..
Hmm.. it is true that in Bulgaria animals are maltreated, tortured even, unfortuntely this is the case in all the Balkans. That one Romanian from work who’s grandfather is Bulgarian was telling us how when he was a kid he used to put kittens in metallic barrels and light them on fire. His eyes sparkled as he was talking. Now, you’ll probably say that it’s because of his partly Bulgarian genes, but he went further to say that “all the kids were doing it”. So again, the situation in regard to animals is unfortunate.. but it is not isolated to Bulgaria as you’re trying to make it seem.
Bulgar tribes were the main striking forces of Attila the Hun. We were not a mere part of the so called ‘barbarian hordes’, we were the top dogs responsible for salughtering your oh so civillized Romans.
Noble Roman identity!? These “noble” Romans watched women and children get torn to pieces by lions and tigers, all this was done for pleasure, for sport. They also watched gladiators slice through the flesh of innocent women and children for fun. And now you pride yourself in those same people who came to the lands you now reside in and breifly enslaved the local populations.. after some 160 years they were on their marry way. You my friend, are one proud slave claiming the glory of your masters, who had only occupied some 25% of the lands of modern day Romania and left.. which is why you ain’t nothing but a mouse.
Gave us the land!? My forefathers earned that land. It was for the first and only time in history that Byzantium was forced to recognize their own land as officially Bulgarian. Such an achievement can only be attributed to Bulgaria.
My conclusions thus far are that you have no basis for this statement. I believe that you hate on Bulgarians solely because of some personal issue (possibly you were called a gypsy by a Bulgarian, who knows). In turn, this unfavorable event in your life most probable engraged you. And as feeble minded people often do, they let their emotions dictate their logic.. hence, you allowed yourself to generalize the entire Bulgarian nation based on that one incident.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 6, 2011 11:37:39 GMT -5
Ivo, do yourself a favour: stop trying to act like a goddamn intellectual when you can't spell for shyt. You dumb MF!
"we bared the heaviest burdon"
It's burden, you freak. A burdon is a mule horse.
"That one Romanian from work who’s grandfather"
Whose, not who's, you piece of junk!
So that jackass tortured animals and looks back at his crimes with a sense of nostalgia? These are your friends, I'm guessing. What a pack of losers you all are. Get our of my face, you junk! I grew up in Romania and I played in the forest and in the city and by the sea and I never witnessed anyone doing such a cruel thing to cats. Only the evil gene can trigger such a crime. The evil gene of the bloody Bulgarians! So screw you, you evil slime!
As for us liberating you, we surely did. Serbia joined the war only when the work was nearly done. The same goes for the rest of the countries in that list. We, the Romanians, led the Russian army which together with our army captured Plevnen. This was the <<decisive>> factor that lead to your liberation. The Serbs and the Montegrins were nowhere to be found. As for the whereabouts of the Bulgarians, they were probably preparing to backstab their Romanian allies.
And no, our armies never fought along the Ottomans apart from one incursion into Poland that was started on our initiative. We merely followed them, but we never engaged in battle. In fact, our presence along the Ottomans helped the Austrians at the Siege of Vienna, since we gave them vital information on the Ottoman army. The Bulgarians, however, were part of the Ottoman invading force against Moldavia. Shame on you! Shame!
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 6, 2011 12:05:20 GMT -5
Lol.
This is someone who works in the same company as I do, he's probably old enough to be my father. I wouldn't call him a friend. Hell, I don't even have this guy on Facebook.. and you know it ain't no real friend if ain't on Facebook bro.
Uh-oh.. spelliiiiiing, you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. Hahaha this is so much fun you have no idea, or maybe you do, that seems to be your only contribution to this forum.
He said that "all the kids were doing it".
Allow me to quote myself:
Hmm.. allow me to re-quote myself:
Hhahaha
Now, if you're done throwing hissy fits, let us continue with noting down the historic achievements that are attributed to Romania. Please do try to keep your personal problems on the side.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 6, 2011 12:17:10 GMT -5
You goddamn retard. You asked me to share with you our contributions, I give them to you, you add them and now you say that the only contribution I have made to this forum is correcting your spelling. You lame piece of shyt. You can't formulate yourself and structure your text without quoting people a thousand times. You need to be locked away. Your only visitors should be scientists willing to examine that monstrously dumbass brain of yours. Haha!
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 6, 2011 12:22:00 GMT -5
Ok, now that you've got this latest tantrum out of your system.. are you ready to proceed in a constructive manner?
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Post by Anittas on Nov 6, 2011 12:31:18 GMT -5
Cultural: Stephen the Great's monasteries are listed on UNESCO's World Heritage.
Dimitrie Cantemir writes Descriptio Moldaviae at the request of the University of Berlin. There, he describes the Romanian language and the Roman connection to our identity.
He writes on the Ottoman history; his works have been used as a basis for other works by Western historians.
His notes on the Ottoman and the Moldavian music of his day ensured that we have a better understanding of its sounds.
He also wrote the first Romanian novel, the first critical history on Romanians and much more.
Do you have anything of the like from that time? Do you, Ivo? I also want to learn on Bulgarian history.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 6, 2011 12:56:56 GMT -5
Thank you for the contribution sir, I'll update the list later today as I'm on my way to the gym. I thought you didn't want to compare our historic achievements? And no, we have nothing of the sort from that time period. Great. This is what I was talking about, 'constructive discussion'. We can all learn from each other. Anyway, as you wish, I will oblige. But for the next week or so, I'll be spending my free time on learning about Romanian history as I'm sure there's more that I have yet to learn.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Nov 7, 2011 3:33:02 GMT -5
If you believe that this is not an accurate depiction of reality, please re-phrase it and I'll copy/paste it into the list. Didn't you noticed something wrong with that statement that the first Romanian language school in Bucharest was founded in 1818? What happened in Bucharest in 1818 was, as I wrote before, that the superior education in Romanian language was established at St. Sava Academy (founded in 1694). Originally the lectures were in Greek and Latin. This is a quote from the site of the Faculty of Electrical Engineering of Bucharest: The history of superior technical education in Bucharest begins in 1818 , when Gheorghe Lazăr, an engineer from Transylvania, got the approval to open engineering lectures in Romanian language at St. Sava. The lectures were: arithmetics, theoretical geometry, trigonometry, algebra, geodesy, engineering economics ? (ingineria cu iconomia) and architecture.
So obviously writing that the first Romanian language school in Bucharest was opened in 1818 is misleading if not laughable.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 7, 2011 11:03:05 GMT -5
The list has been updated with the following:
15th c. [Cultural] Stephen the Great's monasteries are listed on UNESCO's World Heritage.
17th c. (1694) [Cultural] Saint Sava Academy is founded.
18th c. [Cultural] Cantemir became a Renaissance Prince and scholar, his son was the first poet of Russia and friend of Voltaire. Dimitrie Cantemir writes Descriptio Moldaviae at the request of the University of Berlin. There, he describes the Romanian language and the Roman connection to our identity. He writes on the Ottoman history; his works have been used as a basis for other works by Western historians. His notes on the Ottoman and the Moldavian music of his day ensured that we have a better understanding of its sounds. He also wrote the first Romanian novel, the first critical history on Romanians and much more.
19th c. (1818) [Cultural] The history of superior technical education in Bucharest begins in 1818 , when Gheorghe Lazăr, an engineer from Transylvania, got the approval to open engineering lectures in Romanian language at St. Sava. The lectures were: arithmetics, theoretical geometry, trigonometry, algebra, geodesy, engineering economics (ingineria cu iconomia) and architecture.
Got it, point made. Issue should be fixed, if not, let me know and I'll update it again.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 7, 2011 12:22:21 GMT -5
A correction should be made in the chronological line that states the Moldavians were the first European people to repell the Tatars and successfully and permanently settle on their land. This happened in the 14th century, not in the 17th century.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 7, 2011 12:56:16 GMT -5
The list has been updated, and the following
has been moved up.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 8, 2011 10:30:40 GMT -5
The list has been updated with the following:
17th c. [Cultural/Political] Vasile Lupu introduced the first codified, written law in Moldavia (1646, published in Iaşi). Known as the Carte româneascǎ de învăţătură ("Romanian book of learning") or Pravila lui Vasile Lupu ("Vasile Lupu's code"), the document does not go against Byzantine tradition, being a translated review of customs (and almost identical to its Wallachian contemporary equivalent). Lupu was born in Arbanasi, an Albanian village in Bulgaria.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 8, 2011 10:50:50 GMT -5
19th century
Culture
The melody of Romanian composer Ciprian Porumbescu's song, Pe-al nostru steag e scris Unire, is adopted for the Albanian national anthem. Porumbescu died a Romanian Hero in an Austrian prison because he refused to fight his own people.
I think this list should not go further than the 19th century. It would be a tiresome job to list all our prominent scientists, writers and artists of the 20th century.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 8, 2011 11:18:13 GMT -5
The list has been updated with the following:
19th c. [Cultural] The melody of Romanian composer Ciprian Porumbescu's song, Pe-al nostru steag e scris Unire, is adopted for the Albanian national anthem. Porumbescu died a Romanian Hero in an Austrian prison because he refused to fight his own people.
Fair enough.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 9, 2011 13:16:54 GMT -5
The list has been updated with the following:
18th c. [Cultural/Political] Constantine Mavrocordatos issued reforms in the laws of each of the two Danubian Principalities, ensuring a more adequate taxation and a series of measures amounting to the emancipation of serfs. His reigns were distinguished by numerous tentative reforms in the fiscal and administrative systems, partly influenced by those of the Habsburg Monarchy during their presence in Oltenia; initiated in Wallachia, they were to be applied consistently in Moldavia as well.
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Post by uz on Nov 9, 2011 16:47:20 GMT -5
why is this in the bulgaria section again? is there a hidden implication that Romanians are all Bulgarians?
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Nov 9, 2011 17:39:27 GMT -5
No hidden implications. It spanned from something pertaining to Bulgarians, but another story.
If you have the power to move it to the Romanian forum, please do so.. that would be a more appropriate place for it.
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