Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 25, 2012 6:53:31 GMT -5
guys pls.... inter bulg-serb tensions is 100% meaningless.... but something that has stricken me and i really like about Bulgaria, is that MINIMAL number of civilian victims in world wars... This definitely shows maturity and love... Serbs OTOH played the cards more risky, gained a better yugoslavia but got fucked by the ones who helped them (west). Bulgarians were more conservative. But in the end, both nations share a lot.... Bulgarians are a good nation. And if they were a little more wealthier with better governance, they would be even better. (same holds for serbs). You cannot expect a nation to be fully good when the salaries are at 200 eur/month and the public services inadequate. But anyway, comparing Greece (with the 500s of billions) with Buulgaria (with the 30 billion only) i can say that Bulgarians are a more mature, organized and better functioning society. The west stopped pouring money in Greece, and the whole country collapsed in 3 years only... every day we have murders, roberries, unrest... in Sofia it was 1000% safer than Athens. Yesterday two "pussy" guys murdered a security officer because he told them to collect the shit of their own dog.... Greeks are much more rude and anarchic than Bulgarians or Serbs will ever be... and anti-social as well. That;s why i have Yugoslavia-Bulgaria in my hurt, and will always try to convert this asiatic bunch of animals called greeks to resemble a little bit Serbs or Bulgarians.
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albascorp
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wahwhahehoehaboe
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Post by albascorp on Jun 25, 2012 9:29:38 GMT -5
serbs and greece are big winners of balkan wars they get each day smaller
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jun 25, 2012 10:59:30 GMT -5
Srpski Svet, your views are understandable. There were massive anti-Bulgarian initiatives throughout your country in the not so distant past and persistent propaganda can easily push even the most intelligent among us into oblivion.
You underestimate your neighbors. Even though our country is now weak and demoralized our fire still burns. It will take a few more generations to extinguish it; so let's see what the future has to bring before it's all gone.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 25, 2012 16:28:20 GMT -5
sadly, ivo, you are right in a way. I think the downfall in Bulgaria is due to those main reasons: immigration (most of the clever people left and quickly are debulgarizing themselves), lack of any idea of an unity of the nation (no one believes he/she should do something for the others), savage capitalism, lack of strong middle class, lack of belief in working together for the brighter feature of Bulgaria etc... I dont think the morals have anything to do with it: last week I was in Amsterdam and the whole of the Netherlands: those people are not famous for their morals yet their society works... In my dreams in the future Bulgaria looks like Netherlands...
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albascorp
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wahwhahehoehaboe
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Post by albascorp on Jun 25, 2012 17:36:20 GMT -5
i dont think serb would let you do this... they wil always claim that you are serb and need to listen to them
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Post by Srpski Svet on Jun 25, 2012 17:56:17 GMT -5
Srpski Svet, your views are understandable. There were massive anti-Bulgarian initiatives throughout your country in the not so distant past and persistent propaganda can easily push even the most intelligent among us into oblivion. You underestimate your neighbors. Even though our country is now weak and demoralized our fire still burns. It will take a few more generations to extinguish it; so let's see what the future has to bring before it's all gone. I have nothing personal against BG but I will call them out and I stand by the opinion that Bulgaria has been the most inert Balkan country since ww2. You aren't defined by what happens to you, but how you respond to it. And ioan WW2 was 70 years ago
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 26, 2012 2:20:25 GMT -5
Srpski Svet, your views are understandable. There were massive anti-Bulgarian initiatives throughout your country in the not so distant past and persistent propaganda can easily push even the most intelligent among us into oblivion. You underestimate your neighbors. Even though our country is now weak and demoralized our fire still burns. It will take a few more generations to extinguish it; so let's see what the future has to bring before it's all gone. i can verify this. the amount of anti-bulgarian propaganda in yugoslavia was huge. i met a Serbian lady, who, upon hearing that I had moved to bulgaria, looked at me as if i had been to mars or anything... I asked the bitch (because she was one big bitch) how many times cars have stopped in zebra crossings for her to pass, in Greece. She answered : EVERY TIME!! (any normal greek knows that there are no zebra crossings in Greece). I replied to her, that she had albanized herself in Greece, she is pure albanian now... Never greeted her again whenever i see her. I consider her a worse albanian than haradinaj. Thing is, that somehow, somebody (west-russia) keeps Yugoslavs and Bulgarians separated. And that sucks, since there is an overlap 90% of mentality/ethics/behavior/manners/design.
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albascorp
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wahwhahehoehaboe
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Post by albascorp on Jun 26, 2012 2:39:06 GMT -5
hahha funny how this guy with his wife falsly trys again to "create" some serbians history and culture by puting serbs on same level as they have same history and same pain haha
first with slovenes than with croats than with bosnians than with greek than with albanians now with bulgaria and machedonia so who is next ?
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jun 26, 2012 13:15:59 GMT -5
Yup, these are huge issues. Or rather, these are the problems.
I completely agree with that one last sentence, though I don't like what you're implying. I don't like what you're implying because I know it to be false. I think your views are largely based on a mere observation of an aftermath rather than an objective analysis of how and why the aftermath came about.
So let's have a look.
1878; Treaty of San Stefano is signed between Russia, the Ottoman Empire, and Bulgaria. All rightful Bulgarian lands are returned. Bulgaria stands united. The West intervenes and Bulgaria is dismembered. The West doesn't want a pro-Russian regional superpower in the Balkans and shortly after they decide to return most of the lands to the Ottomans.
1885; Serbia sees a weak/divided Bulgaria and decides to attack for personal gains. Serbia initiates the Serbo-Bulgarian War. Against all odds, the inexperienced disorganized Bulgarian armies devastate the Serbian armies. As the victor of a war that Bulgaria didn't start, the Bulgarian armies prepare to move on Serbia for reparations. At this point, seeing as how a strong Bulgaria is not favored by the West; Russia aligns itself with Serbia and declares that if Bulgaria marches on Serbia, Russia will declare war on Bulgaria.
1912; First Balkan War. Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece form an alliance against the Ottomans. Their aim is to push the Ottomans out of Europe. Pre-war; Bulgaria/Serbia/Greece decide upon the division of lands. Macedonia is to be partitioned between the three, with Bulgaria keeping the largest chunk as the land at its vast majority was populated by Bulgarians. All parties agreed. The three start off united against the Ottomans. However, when Serbia and Greece occupy Macedonia they halt. They choose to remain in Macedonia, breaking their agreement, scheming against Bulgaria, and wanting to keep the whole of Macedonia for themselves. Bulgaria continues the onslaught against the Ottomans, and is relatively successful. Finding out the Serbs and Greeks dishonor the pre-war agreement, Bulgaria marches on Serbia and Greece; and so erupts the Second Balkan War.
1913; Second Balkan War. Bulgaria devastates the Greek armies. Greeks run from the fields leaving all their weapons behind. Bulgaria sets its sights on Serbia; initially the fight stands at a draw (initially Bulgaria fights with only a part of its armies against Serbia) with not much progress on either side. Having cleared the Greek armies, the full might of the Bulgarian armies mobilize and start on their way against the Serbs. At this point, Romania and the Ottomans enter the war against Bulgaria. And so in a war where Bulgaria stands alone against Serbia, Greece, Romania, and the Ottoman Empire an armistice is signed.. each of our neighbors taking yet another chunk of Bulgaria.
WWI; Bulgaria fights on the German side, as Britain and France were unwilling to return the rightful Bulgarian lands as they had already signed alliances with Greece and Turkey. During WWI, on the local stage Bulgaria does relatively well.
WWII; Bulgaria is on the German side; same reasons. On the local stage, Bulgaria does well in the Balkans. And remains strong even against its own allies with respect to the Bulgarian Jews. As a full blown Nazi country, Bulgaria defends its Jews. Bulgaria is the only country in Europe where the Jewish population actually grew during WWII.
Communism; Bulgaria forced to abide by Stalin's rules. Bulgarians all throughout Macedonia are forced to change their names and passports. They are to identify as "Macedonians", and not Bulgarians. This was done to satisfy Tito's desires; and ultimately Stalin's hopes of forming an enormous communist state in the Balkans (ie. Yugoslavia + Bulgaria). All falls to pieces, Bulgaria is yet divided within itself even further.
EU and US dominance; A form of slavery, very similar to Communism; where the World super powers underhandedly support corruption and favor the influence of criminals who only have their own interest at heart. And now a country is ruled by yesterdays criminals who today are presented as legitimate businessmen. Ultimately this whole thing is designed to funnel all the competent people into Western countries while Bulgaria is pushed toward becoming a highly dependent organ donor. Things are seemingly becoming "better", but are they really? Is independence and self-sufficiency worth forgoing?
Historically my people have achieved that which was deemed impossible on multiple occasions. And even though most are oblivious to these events, all has been recorded. It is these historic achievements that I believe can serve as the spark.
And so it seems the people as a whole did all the right things, yet the results were somehow all wrong.
In 1878, Bulgaria was not strong enough to go against the Ottomans let alone Britain and France. And at the same time, neither was Russia as they had exhausted many resources in the Russo-Turkish War.
In 1885, Bulgaria was perfectly capable of marching on Serbia and obtaining reparations ourselves.. but alas, Russia intervened. In the First Balkan War, well, the only thing to do against backstabbing allies is to go to war with them.. and so we did, hence the Second Balkan War.
In the Second Balkan War, Greece and Serbia united were no match for Bulgaria. And so our leaders were presented with a choice; for Romania to stay out of the war, Bulgaria was to secede all of Dobrugea to Romania. Contemporary historians and modern analysts concur that had Bulgaria given up rightful Bulgarian land that is Dobrugea to Romania, all of Macedonia would have been re-united with Bulgaria. But how could one choose? Ultimately it becomes a choice of deciding which one of your two children is worth saving.. and so the decision was made based on emotion in hopes of rescuing both. Things didn't pan out well for us because of this choice and at same time it wasn't really the wrong choice.
In WWI and WWII a highly pro-Russian Bulgaria was left with no other choice but to join Germany and so we did and we fought. Germany lost both wars, and so it seems Bulgaria yet again made the wrong choice. But was it once more the wrong choice? Or was it simply the only possible choice that remained?
During Communism, we were engulfed in it and we became Russia's little brother. Here there was one choice that was dead wrong and that was to force our own population in Pirin Macedonia to identify not as Bulgarians but as "Macedonians". And so this was truly false, and yet the choice was made by a puppet elite dictated by Stalin and all those that spoke against it suffered a horrible faith.
And now the EU really seems to be one of the last pieces of the puzzle. A country that has been bled for more than a century bit by bit is now offered a "helping hand" by the very people who bled us in the first place.
To refer to Bulgaria as "the most inert country since WWII" is not a very accurate statement. Not because of the causes that have contributed to some form of inertness, but rather because during Communism.. Bulgaria was actually doing relatively well.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Jun 27, 2012 1:47:26 GMT -5
Great summary ivo, as always. I agree 100 percent.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 27, 2012 2:52:33 GMT -5
However brave or successful Bulgaria was according to Ivo's lecture above, FACT is that in ALL wars Bulgaria had 1/2 of the victims of Greece and about 1/20 of the victims of Serbs. (the numbers especially in WWII speak tones...)
So, let us not exagerate here... guys pls.... Bulgaria is fine, disciplined, cultured, but ... brave??? Bulgaria never really risked anything. The numbers speak by themselves.
In WWII Bulgarians were the slavic nation with the least number of victims. (3000 civilians, and 30,000 soldiers??? gimme a break)
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 27, 2012 3:01:39 GMT -5
"Much of Macedonia was Bulgarian...that was our problem with keeping it, because of the rebel groups there. We never lost access to the Sea, nor did we lose Montenegro (never was a part of Serbia to begin with). Montenegro is a second Serbian state on the balkans. And Kosovo is something we fought (fighting) for, something Bulgarians haven't done in almost 100 years."
Not exactly Svet, it was the Ottomans who realised Bulgars are submissive narod and planned to quell the rebellious Southern Serb by installing a Bulgar and its demonic church to Bulgarianise the local Serb population into a zombie like Bulgar personality that is loyal and submissive to the Ottomans. The Turks during the 19th century detested anything Serb in Southern Serbia.....don't fall for Bulgar or commie lies.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 27, 2012 3:10:10 GMT -5
Pyrro, you obviously missed the point of Ivos post. The post wasnt about Bulgarias bravery or Bulgarias casualties... It was about the Bulgarian feature to do imposible things at the moment they write you off, it was about the inevitable decisions that Bulgaria would ally with Germany, that the circumstances were such that there was no other way for Bulgaria than to be an alley of Germany etc. The summarized history also shows that when Bulgarians believe in something and are united they do prevail over our (then) enemies. Bulgaria never risked anything? It wasnt riskey to be at war with the Ottomans and then turn against Greece and Serbia who were dividing lands populated by Bulgarians? Its crazy, its not risky, its crazy...
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 27, 2012 5:10:03 GMT -5
^^^ 3,000 dead bulgarians in WWII 2,000,000 yugoslavs, 'nuff said
Not to mention the obvious, that Sofia is a GREAT city because it is a RUSSIAN CITY.
everything good in Bulgaria was hugely designed by the Russians.
And since i have not had any evidence of Bulgarian military industry in the 1800s, i can only assume that all the supplies were directly originated from the Russians.
So yeah, with supreme RUSSIAN technology it was possible to against and Serbia and Greece..
(between you and me it was only Serbia, Greece is not capable of combat by herself....)
Greece with Britain is like Bulgaria with Russia, but in the case of Greece we are far less capable than you... (on par with the albies)
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 27, 2012 5:13:04 GMT -5
Sofia was not designed by Russians thank you very much. Yes alot of Russian INFLUENCED building, but also alot of VIENNA STYLE buildings.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 27, 2012 5:14:33 GMT -5
Sofia was not designed by Russians thank you very much. Yes alot of Russian INFLUENCED building, but also alot of VIENNA STYLE buildings. come on man, all those magnificent gigantic building needed funding ... Sofia's center is like a charm, where did the money come from? also the heating system?
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jun 27, 2012 10:30:58 GMT -5
The 'lecture' above is a mere summary of historic events. As I've already mentioned, all has been recorded and all you have to do is read it. You don't have to believe my words; do your own research.
This seems to be a common occurrence, but I'm glad you understood me Ioan. The opinion of proud Bulgarians is what matters, the rest are of lesser significance.
The root cause of discrepancies in our discussions presents itself in your own words.
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albascorp
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wahwhahehoehaboe
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Post by albascorp on Jun 27, 2012 13:33:58 GMT -5
petersburg is fully designed by austrohungarian dutch style copycats
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