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Post by derk on Nov 12, 2011 12:16:12 GMT -5
The Gikas what? Is that how you formulate a sentence and structure an argument? Do I look Serb to you? Put on a good effort if you want a promt reply. Anittas, I forgot how sensitive you are about correct grammar. Let me rephrase it: By saying that Albanian national awakening started in Romania, are you referencing the Ghica Family?
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Post by Anittas on Nov 12, 2011 12:49:53 GMT -5
The Gikas what? Is that how you formulate a sentence and structure an argument? Do I look Serb to you? Put on a good effort if you want a promt reply. Anittas, I forgot how sensitive you are about correct grammar. Let me rephrase it: By saying that Albanian national awakening started in Romania, are you referencing the Ghica Family? No. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_of_Romania
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Post by derk on Nov 12, 2011 12:51:00 GMT -5
I see.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 12, 2011 12:59:31 GMT -5
Actually, I take some of it back. It seems some of the members of the Ghika family were involved in some kind of Albanian ... something. The Ghika family was big. They were all Romanian patriots. One of them was asked to become the Albanian president, but he declined: because he was Romanian and he loved his country.
Yes, those kind of Albanians are welcome any time of the day. It would be an honor to have them.
I only have problem with the primitive Kosovarës.
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Post by derk on Nov 12, 2011 13:05:44 GMT -5
I have always thought/was taught that Ghica's were originally Albanian and Aromanian Phanariotes that later became Romanisized (correct word?). This largely happened when Ottoman Empire was using Phanariotes to be governors of Walachia. I have some Ghica ancestors so that is my side of the story, the reality or what you know may be different from mine.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 12, 2011 13:35:33 GMT -5
I have always thought/was taught that Ghica's were originally Albanian and Aromanian Phanariotes that later became Romanisized (correct word?). This largely happened when Ottoman Empire was using Phanariotes to be governors of Walachia. I have some Ghica ancestors so that is my side of the story, the reality or what you know may be different from mine. How is it any different from what I wrote above?
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Post by derk on Nov 12, 2011 13:54:55 GMT -5
Not much difference, I didn't say yours was wrong too you know... I simply stated what I know about them. The only difference between yours and mine is that I thought they became Romanian later on while you didn't say such a thing. AFAIK (it is probable I am wrong as I am not objective on this) they were initially albanian or aromanian. They embraced romanian identity much later.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 14:30:08 GMT -5
Albanians achieved better unity than others, but let's not forget about the Arvanites who were assimilated due to having the same religion as the Greeks. This unity that you speak of was achieved much later after the idea of Nationalism spread out to the Balkans and it's not such a big deal. The Turks accepts its Christian minority of Turks just as well. Paganism had no chance against an organized monotheistic religion like Christianity so the comparison is wrong. Christianity, on the other hand, did have a chance to survive and in most places in the Balkans, it did. we're no longer discussing the same thing, we're bouncing through decades and topics here. arvanites were people in limbo, there was a monumental effort to assimilate them in which the greek state was heavily involved through distortion of history and systematic twisting of facts in order to erase chapters of history, you have to take that into account. dude listen, you're skimming over the murky waters of history, to analyse the albanian issue u'd have to consider what happened after the fall of kruja and the rebellion led by the kastriot family, we truly never recovered after the rettribution dished out by the ottomans after they crushed the resistance, it is estimated that over 60% of the albanian populaton either was killed or fled far beyond the borders of what was known as the land of the arber, you'd really have to follow a chronological timeline in order to make an educated assessment of why we converted, and why did people views us as stern, stubborn, uncompromising and foul tempered....you can't just say well serbs and greeks did it this way why wasn't that emulated by the albanians, that's why we are unique in many ways and why our history has so many twists and turns, besides you'd have to keep in mind that serbs and greeks traded their own people like cattle and shunned their kin when they converted, albanians never did that, we placed traditions, language, blood before religion...if that is not nationalism manifested in a trait familiarity then i don't know what is. why do u act like u know everything? how can u make such statements with such a mindnumbing competence when it is apparent that u have no idea what goes on in kosovo nor have u ever set foot there, how do u know that religion dictates way of life in kosovo? that is utter bollox, rural kosovo is probably somewhat religious and by and large kosovars are more religious than albanians in albania proper, however they are by no means more radical and fanatic than orthodox serb or greeks whose devoutness for religion borders on extremism, kosovars are far more tolerant and accepting when it comes to religion than many christian nations in the balcans but because they are of muslim majority they get berated, as if christian extremism is something to be taken lightly. the albanian cultural revolution started in romania? ? are you serious? ?? you mean romanians gave us culture...? how exactly do you figure that, that is such a bold statement that my head is spinning, how did romanians give us culture and civilisation? you mean albanians who lived in romania gave us a few papers and literature?? but that happened everywhere in the disapora, turkey, italy, america, france, greece, romania...the albanian community in romania did contribute to the resurgence of the national conciousness but to go as far as saying that romanians gave us our culture is simply astonishing, we have very little in common as people. don't bother starting such a thread, it is simply insane.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 12, 2011 14:33:05 GMT -5
I think it's quite obvious that if they were of Albanian origin, they were initialy Albanian at some stage in history were later assimilated. It couldn't be any other way, could it?
What I was saying, though, is that even when they became aware of their Albanian roots (at one time they were unsure, I believe) and even when some of their members were invited to hold a prominent role in Albanian politics, they refused the offer and stayed true to their Romanian identity. It was a class act, that's what I'm saying. I can't believe you missed my point.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 14:34:07 GMT -5
Albanians achieved better unity than others, but let's not forget about the Arvanites who were assimilated due to having the same religion as the Greeks. This unity that you speak of was achieved much later after the idea of Nationalism spread out to the Balkans and it's not such a big deal. The Turks accepts its Christian minority of Turks just as well. Paganism had no chance against an organized monotheistic religion like Christianity so the comparison is wrong. Christianity, on the other hand, did have a chance to survive and in most places in the Balkans, it did. we're no longer discussing the same thing, we're bouncing through decades and topics here. arvanites were people in limbo, there was a monumental effort to assimilate them in which the greek state was heavily involved through distortion of history and systematic twisting of facts in order to erase chapters of history, you have to take that into account. dude listen, you're skimming over the murky waters of history, to analyse the albanian issue u'd have to consider what happened after the fall of kruja and the rebellion led by the kastriot family, we truly never recovered after the rettribution dished out by the ottomans after they crushed the resistance, it is estimated that over 60% of the albanian populaton either was killed or fled far beyond the borders of what was known as the land of the arber, you'd really have to follow a chronological timeline in order to make an educated assessment of why we converted, and why did people views us as stern, stubborn, uncompromising and foul tempered....you can't just say well serbs and greeks did it this way why wasn't that emulated by the albanians, that's why we are unique in many ways and why our history has so many twists and turns, besides you'd have to keep in mind that serbs and greeks traded their own people like cattle and shunned their kin when they converted, albanians never did that, we placed traditions, language, blood before religion...if that is not nationalism manifested in a trait familiarity then i don't know what is. why do u act like u know everything? how can u make such statements with such a mindnumbing competence when it is apparent that u have no idea what goes on in kosovo nor have u ever set foot there, how do u know that religion dictates way of life in kosovo? that is utter bollox, rural kosovo is probably somewhat religious and by and large kosovars are more religious than albanians in albania proper, however they are by no means more radical and fanatic than orthodox serb or greeks whose devoutness for religion borders on extremism, kosovars are far more tolerant and accepting when it comes to religion than many christian nations in the balcans but because they are of muslim majority they get berated, as if christian extremism is something to be taken lightly. the albanian cultural revolution started in romania? ? are you serious? ?? you mean romanians gave us culture...? how exactly do you figure that, that is such a bold statement that my head is spinning, how did romanians give us culture and civilisation? you mean albanians who lived in romania gave us a few papers and literature?? but that happened everywhere in the disapora, turkey, italy, america, france, greece, romania...the albanian community in romania did contribute to the resurgence of the national conciousness but to go as far as saying that romanians gave us our culture is simply astonishing, we have very little in common as people. don't bother starting such a thread, it is simply insane. It's racist to them if they're not allowed to wear a Fez in public.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 12, 2011 14:43:44 GMT -5
Atd, you're growing hostile. I didn't say Romanians gave you culture; but Romania offered your elites a sanctuary where they could regain their strength. They were also introduced to liberal ideas, which surely helped them on their way.
Yeah, we have little in common as a people because the vast majority of your people are ignorant of our shared heritage. I tried to communicate this to a Kosovarë once, but the dumb fvck wouldn't understand. He just made these retarded noises which disgusted me. He wouldn't speak Swedish, nor English. Fvck it. I'm out, dude. You are hostile to Romanians, so whatever.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 14:49:49 GMT -5
i haven't said one thing about romanians, how am i hostile to romanians? you made some really outlandish claims and are pigeonholing kosovars, moreover you are displaying a lack of knowledge of historical events, now if i wanna discuss a topic i wanna make sure i am well informed otherwise you are just running around in circles....just so we are clear i have nothing against romanians, i just get worked up when i see people generalising and putting labels on an entire country based on random experiences with individuals.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 14:50:00 GMT -5
Atd, you're growing hostile. I didn't say Romanians gave you culture; but Romania offered your elites a sanctuary where they could regain their strength. They were also introduced to liberal ideas, which surely helped them on their way. Yeah, we have little in common as a people because the vast majority of your people are ignorant of our shared heritage. I tried to communicate this to a Kosovarë once, but the dumb fvck wouldn't understand. He just made these retarded noises which disgusted me. He wouldn't speak Swedish, nor English. Fvck it. I'm out, dude. You are hostile to Romanians, so whatever. Attachments:
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 14:51:25 GMT -5
It's racist to them if they're not allowed to wear a Fez in public. who is 'them' and why would they be wearing such a hat?
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 14:53:08 GMT -5
Because Albanians invented the Fez, HA HA!
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 14:56:34 GMT -5
is that right?
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Post by Anittas on Nov 12, 2011 15:01:49 GMT -5
I'm not an expert on Albanian history, but I know a few things about Skaderbeg that I read in books on Mehmet II and in Dlugosz's history. I wouldn't be surprised if I knew more about Skanderbeg than the average Kosovarë.
My arguments were for the most part in context. I mentioned Arvanites because you and the other fellow claimed that Albanians, unlike Serbs and Croats, never seperated due to religious identity. Sure, there are special conditions that apply to Arvanites (the Greek propaganda, etc.), but in the end, religion was used as a tool for assimilation.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:08:21 GMT -5
I dunno dude, it would be funny if it was true. I think it was just the traditional get up.
Like the women and the harem costumes. I think most of them ( Balkan ethnicities ) under the occupation wore a Fez.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:11:05 GMT -5
If it were true.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 15:11:37 GMT -5
I'm not an expert on Albanian history, but I know a few things about Skaderbeg that I read in books on Mehmet II and in Dlugosz's history. I wouldn't be surprised if I knew more about Skanderbeg than the average Kosovarë. My arguments were for the most part in context. I mentioned Arvanites because you and the other fellow claimed that Albanians, unlike Serbs and Croats, never seperated due to religious identity. Sure, there are special conditions that apply to Arvanites (the Greek propaganda, etc.), but in the end, religion was used as a tool for assimilation. ok, granted, but on their part, there wasn't a decree past to offload them, it was a geographical area which was annexed mate, greeks formed their national identity earlier than us and they just gobbled up as much land as they could, those people fell into their territory, it was as much greed for territory as it was religious, muslim albanians didn't 'disown' arvanites because they were christian but rather greeks assimilated them, in the south there are plenty of christians which were never assimilated(i'm one of them) because the greeks didn't unjustly claim land far enough north, if our areas had been taken by greeks then i'd probably be another pyrros or karta, denying my humble roots. the beef i have with you is why you keep on insulting kosovars, i will always defend kosovo albanians, i am from the south of albania but i consider them my brothers, no different to northern albanians or the ones in tirana, so everytime you say smth messed up about them, that automatically triggers a reaction.
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