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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:14:34 GMT -5
Tosks are one with the Greek blood. I know a Gheg he's religious though and he pretends he's not.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 15:17:06 GMT -5
I dunno dude, it would be funny if it was true. I think it was just the traditional get up. Like the women and the harem costumes. I think most of them ( Balkan ethnicities ) under the occupation wore a Fez. nah, most deffinitely not alb, we have the plis, qeleshe and various forms of skullcaps, the fez is ottoman like, probably wore by veziers and other officials, looks fancy.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:20:55 GMT -5
Actually Lol i'm going to find out who invented the Fez this is going to tick me off if I don't look.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 15:22:00 GMT -5
Tosks are one with the Greek blood. I know a Gheg he's religious though and he pretends he's not. northern greeks have a lot in common with tosks, for the obvious reason that area was heavily populated by albanians and many of them are of arvanite stock, tosks do not in any way consider themselves akin to greeks, i actually resent the notion.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:24:56 GMT -5
The fez cap was introduced from North Africa in medieval times. According to some traditions.
They were the first maybe Moroccans.
It doesn't say who was the first Balkan country to wear it it just lists Arabs worn it Bosnia Albania and Greece. I know the Greeks worn it also.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:27:47 GMT -5
Tosks are one with the Greek blood. I know a Gheg he's religious though and he pretends he's not. northern greeks have a lot in common with tosks, for the obvious reason that area was heavily populated by albanians and many of them are of arvanite stock, tosks do not in any way consider themselves akin to greeks, i actually resent the notion. Most Ionian Greeks are of Ionian stock they're Potanic because they live around the Black sea the Cretans ( Brothers of Northern Greeks ) are Ionian and Doric mixed. Mace'donian's Yes, I agree that Tosks are more Pontid than Ghegs because of their Greek ancestry the Tosks moved to the Northern part.
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Post by derk on Nov 12, 2011 15:29:10 GMT -5
I'm not an expert on Albanian history, but I know a few things about Skaderbeg that I read in books on Mehmet II and in Dlugosz's history. I wouldn't be surprised if I knew more about Skanderbeg than the average Kosovarë. My arguments were for the most part in context. I mentioned Arvanites because you and the other fellow claimed that Albanians, unlike Serbs and Croats, never seperated due to religious identity. Sure, there are special conditions that apply to Arvanites (the Greek propaganda, etc.), but in the end, religion was used as a tool for assimilation. ok, granted, but on their part, there wasn't a decree past to offload them, it was a geographical area which was annexed mate, greeks formed their national identity earlier than us and they just gobbled up as much land as they could, those people fell into their territory, it was as much greed for territory as it was religious, muslim albanians didn't 'disown' arvanites because they were christian but rather greeks assimilated them, in the south there are plenty of christians which were never assimilated(i'm one of them) because the greeks didn't unjustly claim land far enough north, if our areas had been taken by greeks then i'd probably be another pyrros or karta, denying my humble roots. the beef i have with you is why you keep on insulting kosovars, i will always defend kosovo albanians, i am from the south of albania but i consider them my brothers, no different to northern albanians or the ones in tirana, so everytime you say smth messed up about them, that automatically triggers a reaction. I agree and not agree with you mate. Imo, arvanites got assimilated because they were very far from the rest of their kin. If they shared a border with albania, things could have turned out very different. For example, I am a phanariote arvanite and I am not assimilated. Maybe its due to the fact that my family never came into contact with greece.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 12, 2011 15:29:29 GMT -5
But that was before the Ottoman Empire though, I don't know I don't know how long Albania has been around. Anyway,
It's the same with the Ionian colonization of Southern Italy and Serbia ( Ex Yugoslavia )
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 12, 2011 15:40:49 GMT -5
I agree and not agree with you mate. Imo, arvanites got assimilated because they were very far from the rest of their kin. If they shared a border with albania, things could have turned out very different. For example, I am a phanariote arvanite and I am not assimilated. Maybe its due to the fact that my family never came into contact with greece. sorry bro, i don't really know your background...i'm baffled at your family being of arvanite stock and not having had contact with greece, i can only assume you left greece? can you shed some light pls? the arvanite issue is not as straight forward as what i wrote, but one thing is undeniable, greeks did launch an aggressive assimilation campaign...although many of them did take up the greek identity willingly.
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Post by terroreign on Nov 12, 2011 17:26:46 GMT -5
that's the most inaccurate statement any human being has ever come up with, if you had read anything even remotely resembling an historical account by an unbiased author, you'd know that albanians were considered as ill tempered, disobedient, free thinking and stubborn people that did not take well to authority and were clan-like in structure...but that's if you actually read literature other than serbian propaganda and if you are fair natured enough to actually state the truth, its a question of willing to say it like it is as opposed to saying smth because it is convenient to your school of thought and the doctrine bred into you. This "clan-like" attitude that you mention did, for the most part, protect the patriarchal culture within the Albanian society. All of the qualities that you say the Albanians possessed, such as being a "disobedient, free thinking and stubborn people", weren't invested in keeping your religion. Otherwise, the vast majority of you would've kept it, much like most of the Bulgarians and Croats kept to their religion. So yes, if someone touched your women, it got ugly. But if someone told you that you'd pay less taxes if you converted to Islam, you converted. I remember when Donnie tried to turn this into a positive thing by arguing that the free-spirit Albanian was never subdued by any religious dogma, which meant that the Albanian converted to whatever religion suited him best. He specifically pointed to the Albanian nobles who had converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism in order to suit their political alliances with Venice and the Papal States. However, there are quite a few differences between converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, and, converting from Christianity (Catholicism or Orthodoxy) to Islam. The first difference is obvious: Orthodoxy and Catholicism are two Christian branches that were (and still are), in many aspects compatible with one another. They're both considered Christian religions. Islam, on the other hand, was a different religion altogether and was seen as hostile and as a threat to Southeastern- and Central Europe. The other difference is that while the Albanian nobles converted to Catholicism for political reasons, the majority of the Albanian population converted to Islam for monetary profit (which can explain the innuendo directed at you: "money can be a deity"). I'm not buying into Donnie's argument. Religion in those days was an importact factor in a man's life, even if the Albanian culture was more loose on matters pertaining to religion (which alludes to an inferior administrative presence). To try to portray the every day Albanian as some kind of rock-and-roll rebel just doesn't fly. Sure, you were stubborn and you resisted authority, but that doesn't make you unique. Many regions in the Balkans resisted authority, some did it a lot better than you did; and those regions even managed to retain their religion. i agree, there certainly seems to be a pervasive trend amongst albanians to sensationalize their unity amongst contrasting religions, and how they had some kind of superior ethnic-consciousness throughout the middle ages which kept them together, but all signs point to this being a carefully-spun mistruth. carefully spun to cover up that the albanians were one of the least ethnically-conscious of balkan peoples, and one of the most opportunistic. though clannish, beyond the immediate sphere of one's own clan they by all accounts had no sense of allegiance or loyalty. their conversions to islam make this self-evident, because as anittas said religion in these times possessed much more legitimacy and loyalty. to add to this, the albanians were the last people to break-off from the ottomans, and what's more they never even had their own freedom revolution, instead they passively defended the ottomans in 1913-14 against the serbs/montenegrins, while acting as if they were defending 'albanian lands', when these lands were under the ottoman empire at the time. if these albanians were truly as albanian nationalists like donnie claim, then they'd've managed to maintain independence at some capacity, would be the first to mass-revolt in the subjected lands, and would never have converted. but this, sounds more like the serbs, than, the albos.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 13, 2011 5:29:43 GMT -5
i agree, there certainly seems to be a pervasive trend amongst albanians to sensationalize their unity amongst contrasting religions, and how they had some kind of superior ethnic-consciousness throughout the middle ages which kept them together, but all signs point to this being a carefully-spun mistruth. well, you care to unravel the threads of this intricately woven deception there annointed one? there is a collective effort to understate this unity among albanians irrespective of religious pertinence because every other race in the balcans folded under the weight of religion and everyone else around us started killing each other and you started to set up stand alone states based on religion. besides, isn't that what religion promotes? isn't that the underlying theme and message of every religious doctrine....unity and acceptance? this made no sense whatsoever, i don't know where you get the nerve to participate in such debates and what's more astounding is that you have the audacity to make outlandish statements without providing any literature to base it on or the flimsiest of logical deductions. you talking about history is the ultimate act of travesty and shame. you should not be allowed to pass judgment on topic of religion conversions seeing as you convert nationality and national identity everytime it is convenient for you. listen up you vagina accessory, if you're gonna talk about our history at least make an effort to read a fucking book or two, then you'd know about the numerous rebellions that broke out in the early 18 hundreds by the albanian latifundists and the cunning way that movement was crushed by the high porte. spare us your scholarly insight next time you castrated gimp.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Nov 13, 2011 5:51:47 GMT -5
well, you care to unravel the threads of this intricately woven deception there annointed one? there is a collective effort to understate this unity among albanians irrespective of religious pertinence because every other race in the balcans folded under the weight of religion and everyone else around us started killing each other and you started to set up stand alone states based on religion. besides, isn't that what religion promotes? isn't that the underlying theme and message of every religious doctrine....unity and acceptance? this made no sense whatsoever, i don't know where you get the nerve to participate in such debates and what's more astounding is that you have the audacity to make outlandish statements without providing any literature to base it on or the flimsiest of logical deductions. you talking about history is the ultimate act of travesty and shame. you should not be allowed to pass judgment on topic of religion conversions seeing as you convert nationality and national identity everytime it is convenient for you. listen up you vagina accessory, if you're gonna talk about our history at least make an effort to read a f**king book or two, then you'd know about the numerous rebellions that broke out in the early 18 hundreds by the albanian latifundists and the cunning way that movement was crushed by the high porte. spare us your scholarly insight next time you castrated gimp. +1 most of kurvo's posts are based on assumptions.
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Post by plisbardhi on Nov 13, 2011 22:40:45 GMT -5
Lol, this just shows how Serbs had a identity dependent on religion since you exclude muslim Serbs. Dinarics in general are highly opportunistic.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 4:00:24 GMT -5
as if somehow to deny your kin because he/she is of a different religious belief is a behaviour which can be commended
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Post by terroreign on Nov 14, 2011 4:02:50 GMT -5
the facts speak for themselves....learn to live with them....or do the honorable thing and kill yourselves
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 4:12:49 GMT -5
yes, the plethora of facts which you so duly provided.
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 5:00:19 GMT -5
I agree and not agree with you mate. Imo, arvanites got assimilated because they were very far from the rest of their kin. If they shared a border with albania, things could have turned out very different. For example, I am a phanariote arvanite and I am not assimilated. Maybe its due to the fact that my family never came into contact with greece. sorry bro, i don't really know your background...i'm baffled at your family being of arvanite stock and not having had contact with greece, i can only assume you left greece? can you shed some light pls? the arvanite issue is not as straight forward as what i wrote, but one thing is undeniable, greeks did launch an aggressive assimilation campaign...although many of them did take up the greek identity willingly. I have arvanite ancestors on my paternal side of the family. They were bilingual speakers of arvanite and greek but today speak greek and turkish. They probably settled in turkey much earlier than arnavuts, around late 1800s and became phanariote greeks. And they never left constantinople again. As for the greek identity, I think the reason they took up greek identity also has to do with the fact that greece was more developed then albania those times. They that being greek was more advantageous than being arvanite so they willingly got assimilated. But maybe more and more arvanites are coming back to their roots because Greece is in a bad shape. I am very indecisive about this. A part of me approves of this (arvanite part) but other part of me disapproves as this will cause serious problem (greek). PS: In turkey, pro-yugoslav media used to claim that Kosovar Albanian didn't want to be called albanians and they took pride in their yugoslav identity... They used to say that they were "offended with the word albanian"... We all saw how it turned out This may also be the case for arvanite, who knows maybe in the future an arvanite revival may take place.
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Post by Anittas on Nov 14, 2011 7:24:37 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that one's identity depended on the stockmarket.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Nov 14, 2011 7:50:32 GMT -5
sadly, in the case of the balcans, it is a commodity
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Post by derk on Nov 14, 2011 9:45:40 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that one's identity depended on the stockmarket. because it isn't, however the reasons I listed played a role on top of the assimilation policy.
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