Antika Srbija / Ancient Serbs

[branislavnusic]

Sept 4, 2018 15:54:48 GMT -5 rex362 said:

for Pyrros's fantasy play ...."ancient serbs "

According to Hofmann, Johann Jacob (1635-1706): Universal Lexicon, Historiam Sacram Et Profanam Omnis aevi, Omniumque Gentium;

The slaves (slaves, , robbers, serfs) are a Skythas people and in Europe they have come

serbs  are apparently called slavons because they are still missing (seventh century)  and all the settlements inhabited by slavons were ruled by the Bulgarians....

[branislavnusic]

"The Croats and Serbs (who were either Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling castes or Iranian tribes with Slavic subjects) arrived in the Balkans in the 620s, a land already occupied by the Slavs." (Salzman 1999)





interesting article:

History of Iran



Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats

By: Dr. Samar Abbas, Bhubaneshwar, India

Jat Jyoti, Vol.4 no.11 (Nov. 2003) p.13-18.

(Magazine of the World Jat Aryan Foundation, 248, Ram Krishna Vihar, 29, IP Extension, Delhi-110 092)





Abstract: Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented.



It is unfortunate that Dr. Sahib Singh Verma, Union Labour Minister, was not allowed to attend the recent World Jat Conference in Belgrade ("Sahib Singh wanted to visit Serbia to meet fellow Jats, PM put his foot down and spiked his bonding-in-Belgrade plans", Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Sad indeed, because there actually do exist strong connections between Jats, Serbs and Croats. Several historians view these communities as sharing a common ethnic origin as is evident from a study of the following submissions.



Philology: Croats as Hrvatis

Let us commence our investigation with the Croats. The science of linguistics provides several connections with Iran. Thus, the Croats of Croatia call themselves "Hrvati" and their country "Hrvatska", whence the Croatian domain name on the internet is .hr. The name "Hrvati" is derived from the Avestan province "Harahvaiti" (Greek: "Arachosia"). The scientific philological argument for the identification of the Croats with the Haravatis is given in (Sakac 1955, pp. 33-36; Sakac 1949, 1937) As Dvornik notes, "P.S.Sakac thinks that he discovered the name 'Croats' in Darius' inscriptions from the sixth century B.C. There an old Persian province and people are mentioned, called Harahvaitai, Harahvatis, Horohoati..." (Dvornik 1956, p.26) Further, the Roman leader Ammanius Marcellinus mentioned that two cities arose in ancient Persia called Habroatis and Chroates. In this regard, Prof. Mandic writes,

"The Croats of the Don, then had to come in ancient times from Iran. On a stone inscription of the King Darius (522-486 B.C.) the nation of the Haruavat-is appears among the 23 subject nations. The Persian sacred books of the Avesti (Vendidad) call that nation the Harahvaiti. The provinces settled by that nation encompassed in those times the southern half of modern south Afghanistan, the whole of Baluchistan and the eastern part of modern Iran. In that ancient province ought we to look for the paleo-fatherland of the modern Croats." (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)

Furthermore, the name of the Croatian capital, Zagreb, is related to the Zagros mountain range of Iran. The Dinara mountains in Dalmatia and the Dinar currency may be connected to Mount Dinar (Dene) of Iran. The name Serbia is similar to the Seropi or Surappi River in Elam. Moreover, certain authorities note that the name of the Carpathian mountains is derived from Croatia:

"Here the Iranian Croats mingled with the numerous local Slavic tribes and adopted the Slavic language from them. Meanwhile after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire the Croats organized the local Slavs into a state and gave them their national name. Before the invasion of the Avars ca. 560 the White or Western Croats created along with the Antes a great state extending north of the Carpathians from the upper Elbe to the upper Dniester. (35: Niederle, 263-266; Dvornik, The Slavs, 277-297) R. Heinzel is of the opinion that the Carpathians of the old Germanic Hervarsaga took their name from the Croats who called them the Harvate mountains i.e. Croatian mountains. (36: Heinzel, 499; Dvornik, op. cit., 284, sq.)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)

Indeed, philologists trace the migration of the Croats from Harahvati (Arachosia, Sarasvati) in the following manner using fossil place-names along the path of migration:

Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan

Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia

Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea

Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic

It is important to note that the Avesta - the sacred scriptures of the ancient Aryan Zoroastrians - mentions the lands settled by the Iranic peoples. Hapta-Hindawa (ie. the Punjab, "Sapta-Sindhu" in Prakrit) is mentioned in the Avesta amongst the Irano-Aryan lands. Even today, the Punjab is the primary home of the Jats. Since the Croats are named after the Harahvaiti or Sarasvati River, and the Jats are the present-day inhabitants of the lost Harahvaiti, it would appear that Jats and Croats would be very closely related indeed.



Vexillology

Further compelling evidence comes from vexillology (the scientific study of flags). Thus, the Croatian flag is based on the chessboard, whence many Croatian historians consider Croats as eponymic descendants of the Sassanid chess master & minister Bozorgmehr, just as the Kambojas are eponymic descendants of Cambyses and Georgians are viewed as the eponymic descendants of King George II. In this regard, Prof. Mandic notes,

"Ancient Croatian folk art bears eastern and Iranian traces, particularly the Croatian "troplets". The Croats also brought over from Iran their national coat of arms with its 64 red and white checkers. (11: Strzycowskyi, 15-63, 156-181; Dado-Peranic, op.cit., 21-24; Mandic Hrvatski kockasti grb, 639-652)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)

Furthermore,

"The organization of the state among the southern Croats with the king, bans and zupans at its head similar to that of the northern Croats; in addition the religion, national customs, dress and arts of the southern Croats bear Iranian traces, just like the Croats in the north. " (Mandic 1970, ch.3)

Indeed, a total of 120 Croat and non-Croat university professors and several academics have published 249 research works elaborating the Old Iranic origin of Croats (Tomicic 1998).



Folklore

A researcher notes similarities in folklore as well,

"There are old Croatian customs and national poems that have been cited as evidencing lingering traces of the fire and sun worship of the Iranians. Fire, the essence of human origin, the sun, and the great boiling cauldron around which the warriors spring in the age old kolo or circle dance, all these are ingredients in the national lore of the Croatian nation. The Croat vilas or fairy witches resemble the peris of Iranian mythology. Then there is the legendary Sviato zov, the personification of strength, a being almost too huge for the earth to bear. He is strongly reminiscent of the "elephant-bodied" Rustum of Persian legend." (Guldescu 1964, pt.1.II)

Research studies on Croatian clothing reveals similarities with Sassanian and other Iranic styles both in terms of male and female clothing.



White Croatia, Red Croatia, Green Croatia

The Iranic origin of Croats is in fact the only way one can comprehend the traditional distinction existing between White Croatia, Red Croatia and Green Croatia:

"After the Iranian fashion the ancient Croats ascribed a specific colour to each of the four cardinal points of the compass in the territory which they inhabited. The colour white designated the west, red the south, green the east, and black the north. (10: Saussure, Le Systeme 235-297; idem, L'origine des noms 23; Sakac, op. cit., 37-40) Hence White or West Croatia, Red or South Croatia and Green or East Croatia." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)

Further, Dobrovich notes,

"It should be noted that only the thesis of the Iranian origin of the Croats can explain the name "Horvath", the title of a Croat dignitary Banus, the names "White" and "Red Croatian", and the Bogumile phenomenon. According to this theory, the Croats were a branch of the Caucasian Iranians, who lived somewhere in the western Caucasus during the era of the Roman Emperors. The Caucasian Anten were another branch of this group." (Dobrovich 1963)

Let us conclude this section on Croats with the words of the learned Prof. Mandic: "The oldest historical evidence, the ancient Croatian social organization, religion, national customs and art indicate that the Croats are of Iranian origin." (Mandic 1970, Concl.)



Sarmatians, Sauro Matii, Surya Madras or Solar Medes

Now, the exact path of migration of the Croats from Iran to the Balkans is still disputed. Some hold that they migrated via Anatolia, others that they migrated via Central Asia and the Pontic region. Some of the latter historians link the Sarmatians with the Croats and Jats. Thus, Dvornik traces both Serbs and Croats back to the Sarmatians of Southern Russia (Dvornik 1956). The Sarmatians were generally identified as Scythians. Thus, Sulimirski, author of "The Sarmatians" also makes mention of the referral of the Emperor's to the Belochrobati or White Croats who "exhibited certain Sarmatian characteristics ... [they were] of Iranian origin" (Sulimirski 1970, p.190-1) Their interest to history stems from the fact that their matriarchial Scythian society probably formed the basis of the Greek legends of the Amazons. In this connection, it is interesting to note numerous reference to the fighting ability, combat skills, bravery and great freedom of Jat women - the Jat amazons.



The name Sarmatian is an Anglicization of the original Sauro Matii, the Latin form of the Prakrit Surya Madra or Surya Mada. The name means "Solar Medes", in English, another testimony to the worship of Surya, or Cyrus, the Asshur of Assyria, the Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians, the splendid Sun-god of the Iranic peoples. In this regard, Mandic notes,

"Indeed from the end of the I to III century A.D. in the city-state of Tanais, in the region of the Don, lived various Iranian tribes of Samatians as well as Croats who must have been Iranians. (4: Concerning the Iranian tribes in present-day southeastern Russia around the Don and the Iranian origin of the Croats, see: Niederle, I, 321-434; Rostovtzeff; Vasmer, I; Hauptmann; Nartical; Sakac, 313-340; Dabo-Peranic. For a summary of the theories on the Croatian name see: Sisic, Povijest Hrvata 238-240) Furthermore the national name "Croat" is of Iranian origin. According to the Russian Vselod Miller the name "Croat" comes from the Iranian word Hor-va (t)u meaning: the sun's bed or path. (5. Miller, 259 sq.) M. Vasmer derives the Croatian name from Hu-urvata meaning, "friend". (6. Vasmer, op. cit., 56) And the terms used to designate the high officials among the Croats, "kral, ban, zupan", are of Iranian origin. (7 Sakac, The Iranian origins of the Croats, 30-46; RP 195-201) (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)

Slovaks & Jats

Prof. Mandic notes, "The great resemblance between the Croatian and Slovak languages tell us that the Croats for the most part moved south from northern Slovakia. For they are far nearer to each other in affinity than to any other Slavic language." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Thus, the Slovaks would also share the same Saka origins as the Croats and Jats.



Bosnia

Regarding the roots of Bosnians, Dodan notes that Bosnia is historically a Croatian land, that Bosnia belonged to Croatia in the early mediaeval times, that the majority of Bosnian population used to be and are still Croats, and that mediaeval Bosnian kings were ethnic Croats. Even their surnames end in "-an". Dodan quotes Draganovic's and Mandic's research according to which 95 % of Muslims and 30% of Serbs are actually Croats. He also elucidates the Iranian roots of the Croatian people (Dodan 1994).



Serbs

Now, we turn to the connection with the Serbs. Several historians maintain that the Serbian ruling caste shared the same origin as the Croats. Prof. Malcolm recently wrote a book "Bosnia" (Malcolm 1996), in which he clearly elucidates the Iranic origin of both Serbs and Croats. For instance, Prof. Salzman notes while reviewing Malcolm's first chapter:

"The Croats and Serbs (who were either Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling castes or Iranian tribes with Slavic subjects) arrived in the Balkans in the 620s, a land already occupied by the Slavs." (Salzman 1999)

The view of Prof. Malcolm is thus that the Croats and Serbs were originally Iranic speakers who adopted a Slavic language (Malcolm 1996). Examples of a conquering immigrant group adopting the language of its surrounding subjects abound in history. For example, the Scandinavian Normans adopted the Romance French language in Normandy, while their ruling kinsmen in England adopted Anglo-Saxon; the Germanic Franks, Merovingians and Carolingians adopted the Romance French language; the Nordic Visigoths adopted the Romance Spanish language; the Germanic Lombards adopted the Romance Italian language, and the Tungus Manchu adopted the Chinese language of their subjects. Likewise, the Jats were originally speakers of Scythian or East Iranic languages, who subsequently adopted an Indo-Aryan language. Hence, that the Iranic Croats and Serbs should adopt a Slavic language would not be unusual in any way.



The Croats were also commonly named by the medieval chroniclers as "Goths":

"The old Croatian chronicle 'The Kingdom of the Croats' and the 'Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin', based on Croatian national tradition and on the ancient records, states that the Croats whom they misnamed the Goths arrived for the north through Pannonia and Templana (6) in Dalmatia, which they conquered and settled. (7)" (Mandic 1970, ch.3)

This is important because the ethnonym "Jat" is widely considered a variant of "Goth" and its Greco-Latin variant "Getae". In this connection, Prof. Lozinski notes: (Lozinski 1964, Vernadsky 1952)

"Professor Vernadsky [25. Vernadsky, G., Ancient Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; an older, less scholarly attempt in this direction: Cuno, J. G., Forschungen im Gebiete der alten Voelkerkunde. Die Skythen (Berlin, 1870), pp. 225-286] was the first, in modern times, to suggest that the Slavs had direct Iranian antecedents. The derivation of both names from religious designations, as suggested above, may be considered as additional evidence, especially as most of the Slavic gods bear purely Iranian, or Indian, names. [26. Vernadsky, G., Kievan Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; Krappe, A. N., "La chute du paganisme a Kiev," Revue des eludes slaves, XVII (1937), 208. Rozwadowski, J., "Stosunki leksykalne miedzy jazykami slowianskimi a iranskiemi," Rocznik orientalistyczny, I (1914/15), 95-110, esp. 110] One of the Slavic groups, the Poles, called themselves Sarmatians; this name was recorded very early in Western Medieval chronicles [27. Ulewicz, T., "Okolo genealogii sarmatyzmu," Pamietnik slowianski, I, (1949), 105-107], which lends credence to the traditions recorded in Polish chronicles edited at the waning of the Middle Ages, according to which they were in touch with the Iranians. [28. Bohomolec, F., Zbior dziejow polskich (Warszawa, 1767-68), III, Cromer M., Kronika, 5, 17, 19, 28; IV, Guagnino, A., Kronika Sarmucyey europeyskiey, 1 f., 7, 13, 16, 513.; Magistri Vincenti ep. Cracoviensis, Chronica Polonorum, ed. A. Przeidziecki (Krakow, 1862), 76 (cf. Paszkiewicz, op. cit., 360); Bielski, M., Kronika Polska (N. ed., Krakow, 1597), Introduction, passim., cf. Chrzanowski, I., Marcin Bielski (Lwow, 1926), 101-108, 504. ] In Antiquity the Sarmatians, as is well known, were the Alans. [29. Vernadsky 1952] The meaning of the name "Sarmata" in Iranian is the "council." [30. Vernadsky, G., and Dzanty, Dzambulant, "The Ossetian Tale of Iry Dada and Mstislav," Journal of American Folklore, LXIX (1956), 234, n. 39.] It refers not to the nationality or language, but to the social organization of the Alans, ruled by a supreme council, appointing the king. [31. Strabo, XI, ix, 3.] The role of the council in early Slavic history is well known, especially among the Western Slavs. Thus the social, or political, organization of the Iranian Alans and Polish Slavs offers evidence of their affiliation." (Lozinski 1964)

Bulgarians

It may also be stated that several scholars have noticed Iranic elements amongst the Proto-Bulgarians. (Beshevliev 1967, Schmitt 1985)



Anthropology

The Iranic or Irano-Aryan race as a whole is dolichocephalic (long-headed), leptorrhine (having long, narrow noses), tall, robust, dark-haired, large-boned and fair-skinned with straight hair. These features are found amongst the Jats, Pathans, Persians, Rajputs and Kurds. Due to the common features of Iranic skeletons with Nordics, some authorities consider the Nordics and Iranics as belonging to a common Nordic-Iranian macro-race. It is a further strong support for the Iranic origin of Croats that the Croats, and indeed, West Slavs in general, display strong Iranic racial features.



Thus, the majority of Croatians today tend to be tall statured, with narrow facial features. Many historians consider these western Slavic features to be a trait passed on from the Iranic tribes mentioned above. The Alans in particular are thought to have had considerable impact on the Croatian racial "type". Now, there are three sub-types of Croats proper: Dinaric (Iranoid race), Mediterranean (Latinoid race) and Panonian (Slavoid race) The Dinaric type to which many Croats belong is often viewed as an Iranic sub-type:

"In the central mountainous regions settled by the Croats upon their arrival on the Adriatic the Dinaric type of Croat developed. This type is quite remote from the general Slavic type. The Dinaric Croats are tall in stature (ca. 1.8 metres), long-headed but with a skull of short circumference (cephalic index of 80-85)." (Mandic 1970, ch.3)

The main feature of the Dinaric sub-type of Iranics is that the head is long when viewed from front, but the circumference is short, giving the illusion of brachcephaly when viewed from the top. It is common amongst Armenians as well, and is often viewed as a breeding isolate of the Iranoid race.



Refuting the view that the Croatians were of Illyrian or Roman stock, Mandic notes, ".... Nevertheless one has to say that the contribution of the local Romanized remnants [Illyrian] of the prehistoric Dinaric folk, hardly amounted to more than 20% to 30% in forming the Dinaric Croat." (Mandic 1970, ch.3) These Mediterranean Croats are "intermediary in stature, a little smaller than the Dinaric type. They have quite oval skulls, dark hair and eyes and an olive complexion."



The Panonian Croats, however, are largely descendants of the Slavic populations. The Slavoid race in general (to be distinguished from the speakers of Slavic languages) is short-statured, brachycephalic (round-headed), with blond hair. Thus,

"When the Croats conquered Lower Pannonia and Savia they at one began to assimilate with the Kaikavian Slavs of those areas. Out of that came the third type of Croat, the Pannonian, of intermediate stature, blond hair, ruddy complexion and of a rather sizeable cephalic index. .... conspicuous type of Pannonian Croat was preserved up until this day. They of all the Croats are the closest to the general Slavic type in their physical and psychological make-up. (88)" (Mandic 1970)

Thus, the round-headed blond Panonian Croats are not members of the Iranoid race, but instead are of the round-headed Slavoid race. They are, however, outnumbered by the Iranic or Dinaric Croats, who form the dominant element of Croatia



Genetics

A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.



Croatian elements among Serbs

Furthermore, even if the Serbs represent primarily the descendants of round-headed Slavs, there has been much Croat infusion into the Serb genetic stock. Thus, Mandic estimates that one-third of Serbs are ethnically Croat:

"Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7)

Jats

Where do the Jats come into this? Now, the Jats are generally held to be of Scythian descent. The Jat-Sikhs are also of Saka descent, for indeed the very name "Sikh" is derived from "Saka" (Sara 1978). Noted historian Satya Shrava notes, "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known" (Shrava 1981, p.2-3). Eminent scholars like Tod, Toynbee, Trevaskis, Keene, Kephart, Dhillon, Dahiya, Prakash and Bingley directly or indirectly connected Jat, Goths and Scythians. Thus, the famed Anglo-American historian Toynbee notes:

"It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab." (Toynbee 1934, p.435).

Furthermore, some scholars hold that the Scythians and Iranics originated in the Punjab and from thence migrated across the world. Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock.



Conclusion

It is a pity that Dr. K.S.Singh, former DG, Anthropological Survey of India, erroneously asserted there was no Jat-Serb connection (Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Compounding this, he went further and wrongly bracketed Jats into what he called an "Indo-Pak stock". This is a term non-existent in standard anthropology. Indeed, Pakistan was first created in 1947. How can the DG's hypothetical "Indo-Pak stock" by any stretch of the imagination refer to ancient history? The length of this article has been necessitated in order to provide sufficient counterweight to the DG's misleading statements. He is invited to read the references contained in this article and correct himself.



It is thus clear, Belgrade was indeed an appropriate choice for the location of the World Jat Congress. This article amply shows that close kinsmen of the Jats abound all across the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Now, given the tragic recent history of the Serb-Croat divide during the break-up of Yugoslavia, it might be more advisable to first establish Jatism in Croatia, for it is in Croatia that the Iranic connection has recently become official history. Sadly, Serbian historians are still split between the Slavic and Iranic theories. Once the first base has been established in Croatia, one may look beyond to the surrounding regions to develop further Jat connections in the Balkans.







References:

Beshevliev 1967: "Iranian elements in the Proto-Bulgarians" by V. Beshevliev (in Bulgarian)(Antichnoe Obschestvo, Trudy Konferencii po izucheniyu problem antichnosti, str. 237-247, Izdatel'stvo "Nauka", Moskva 1967, AN SSSR, Otdelenie Istorii) members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/besh.html

Dobrovich 1963: "Volk an der Grenze - Schicksal und Auftrag. Zur Geschichte der burgenlaendischen Kroaten," (People on the Border - History of the Burgenland Croats), by Johann Dobrovich, Burgenlaendische Forschungen, vol.47, Prov. Archive of Burgenland, Eisenstadt 1963, tr by Frank Teklits; archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER/1999-07/0931520170

Dodan 1994: "Bosna and Hercegovina, a Croatian land", by Sime Dodan, Meditor, Zagreb, 1994.

Dvornik 1956: "The Slavs. Their Early History and Civilization." by F. Dvornik, American Academy of Arts and Sciences, Boston, USA., 1956.

Guldescu 1964: "History of Medieval Croatia", by Stanko Guldescu, Mouton (pub), The Hague, 1964; www.raceandhistory.com/Science/croatia.htm

Hina 2000: "Scholars assert Croats are Descendants of Iranian Tribes", Hina News Agency, Zagreb, Oct 15, 2000 (http://www.hina.hr)

Lozinksi 1964: "The Name Slav" by B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books,1964) members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/lozinski.html

Malcolm 1996: "Bosnia: A Short History", by Noel Malcolm, New York University Press, New York, 1994; 1996, new ed.

Mandic 1970: "Croats and Serbs - Two old and different nations," by Dr. O. Dominik Mandic, Chicago 1970, Nakladni Zavod Matice Hrvatske, Zagreb, 1990; tr. Vicko Rendic & Jacques Perret, www.magma.ca/~rendic/

Sakac 1937: "Del origen caucaso-iranio de los croatas" ("Of the Caucasian-Iranian ancestry of the Croats") by S. Sakac, Zagreb 1937.

Sakac 1949: "Iranisehe Herkunft des kroatischen Volksnamens", ("Iranian origin of the Croatian Ethnonym") S. Sakac, Orientalia Christiana Periodica. XV (1949), 813-340.

Sakac 1955: "The Iranian origin of the Croatians according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus", by S. Sakac, in "The Croatian nation in its struggle for freedom and independence" (Chicago, 1955); for other works by Sakac, cf. "Prof. Dr. Stjepan Krizin Sakac - In memoriam" by Milan Blazekovic, www.studiacroatica.com/revistas/050/0500501.htm

Salzman 1999: "Book Review: Noel Malcolm, Bosnia" by Todd Salzman, Creighton Univ.; J. Religion & Society, Vol.1 (1999), moses.creighton.edu/JRS/1999/1999-r1.html

Sara 1978: "The Scythian Origin of the Jat-Sikh", I.Sara, The Sikh Review, 1978, pp. 15-27 (pt.1), pp. 214-233 (pt.2) (http://www.sikhreview.org)

Schmitt 1985: "Iranica Proto-Bulgarica" (in German), Academie Bulgare des Sciences, Linguistique Balkanique, XXVIII (1985), l, p.13-38; members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/bulgar/schmitt.html

Shrava 1981: "The Sakas in India", S.Shrava, Pranava Prakashan, New Delhi 1981.

Sulimirski 1970: "The Sarmatians," by T.Sulimirski, Thames & Hudson, London, UK, 1970.

Tomicic 1998: "The old-Iranian origin of Croats", Symposium proceedings, Zagreb 24.6.1998, ed. Prof. Zlatko Tomicic & Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, Cultural center of I.R. of Iran in Croatia, Zagreb, 1999, ISBN 953-6301-05-5, www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats2.PDF

Toynbee 1934: "A Study of History," by A. Toynbee, Vol. 2., Oxford University Press, London, 1939, 1st pubd in 1934; cited by Sunny Singh (pers. comm.)

Vernadsky 1952: "Der sarmatische Hintergrund der germanischen Voelkerwanderung," (Sarmatian background of the Germanic Migrations), G. Vernadsky, Saeculum, II (1952), 340-347.

Franjo Racki, the Croatian historian, says, that as the Roman province of Dalmatia stretched from the Adriatic to Pannonia, under those Serbs, who are mentioned by Einhard, we must look at all those lands between, and the people inhabiting them, ie: Bosnia to be considered Serbian land, inhabited by Serbs.




Czech historian Josef Dobrovský: "If I had to give a common name for all the Slavs, it would be the name Serb". (1813)



Polish Historian Lorenz Surowiecki: "The name Serb is older than Slav for all peoples of Wendic ancestry". (1828)



Slovak historian Jozef Safarik: "Serbs was the oldest generic name for all Slavs" (1849).

[Pyrros]

Brane sine moj, I see you are practicing , good for you!! You'll need this experience in the future against serious opponents !!

[branislavnusic]

Sept 5, 2018 1:49:40 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Brane sine moj, I see you are practicing , good for you!! You'll need this experience in the future against serious opponents !!

[rex362]

Sept 4, 2018 16:52:53 GMT -5 rex362 said:

Sept 4, 2018 16:44:40 GMT -5 @ulf said:

See that's the thing with history books, or rather history in general. They can be easily forged, made up or just written in accordances to someones need. That's why they should not be taken seriously. I mean, if Albanians are so old and ancient they should be as good as Italy by now. That's why science work very simple. Genetics say the modern Serbs are very old in this part of Europe, older than certain other nation

Albanians or Illyrians ?

bcs Pyrros also read this book .......15th century  /Albanians identified as Illyrian 

Balkan Studies Volume 20. Page193

-1415-

well Pyrros ??

and besides proof here that illyrians = Albanians ....slavs are bunched up as one .....no  "serbs "

"To classify them exactly is at the moment neither feasible nor urgent; the names, however, that tend to crop up in every conversation as the best known and the most important are these : Laconians, Italians, Peloponnesians, Slavs, Albanians, Gypsies and Jews (not to mention a generous admixture of hybrids), adding up to a total of seven nationalities”

also interesting is in the translation , the Peloponnesian cherry blossom of the classical Hellenist, in the 15th century  is inhabited by many races, among which Illyri was identified with the Albanians....while mentioning two old names, Lakonet and Pelopoenesians. The latter two are not identified as greek....but as two different races among them.   but it is important to understand that alongside these two ancient names live the Illyrians .

[Pyrros]

Rex is cornered and helpless .

[rex362]

Sept 5, 2018 13:43:16 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Rex is cornered and helpless .

yep cornered  by a vlah pretending to be serbia

LOOK OUT !  ....SAXON BEHIND YOU BRO ...DUCK !

[branislavnusic]

Sept 5, 2018 12:17:01 GMT -5 rex362 said:

Sept 4, 2018 16:52:53 GMT -5 rex362 said:

Albanians or Illyrians ?

bcs Pyrros also read this book .......15th century  /Albanians identified as Illyrian 

Balkan Studies Volume 20. Page193

-1415-

well Pyrros ??

and besides proof here that illyrians = Albanians ....slavs are bunched up as one .....no  "serbs "

"To classify them exactly is at the moment neither feasible nor urgent; the names, however, that tend to crop up in every conversation as the best known and the most important are these : Laconians, Italians, Peloponnesians, Slavs, Albanians, Gypsies and Jews (not to mention a generous admixture of hybrids), adding up to a total of seven nationalities”

also interesting is in the translation , the Peloponnesian cherry blossom of the classical Hellenist, in the 15th century  is inhabited by many races, among which Illyri was identified with the Albanians....while mentioning two old names, Lakonet and Pelopoenesians. The latter two are not identified as greek....but as two different races among them.   but it is important to understand that alongside these two ancient names live the Illyrians .

Ever since the days of Homer, Greeks have long idealized their Mycenaean “ancestors” in epic poems and classic tragedies that glorify the exploits of Odysseus, King Agamemnon, and other heroes who went in and out of favor with the Greek gods. Although these Mycenaeans were fictitious, scholars have debated whether today’s Greeks descend from the actual Mycenaeans, who created a famous civilization that dominated mainland Greece and the Aegean Sea from about 1600 B.C.E. to 1200 B.C.E., or whether the ancient Mycenaeans simply vanished from the region.



Now, ancient DNA suggests that living Greeks are indeed the descendants of Mycenaeans, with only a small proportion of DNA from later migrations to Greece. And the Mycenaeans themselves were closely related to the earlier Minoans, the study reveals, another great civilization that flourished on the island of Crete from 2600 B.C.E. to 1400 B.C.E. (named for the mythical King Minos).


The ancient DNA comes from the teeth of 19 people, including 10 Minoans from Crete dating to 2900 B.C.E. to 1700 BCE, four Mycenaeans from the archaeological site at Mycenae and other cemeteries on the Greek mainland dating from 1700 B.C.E. to 1200 B.C.E., and five people from other early farming or Bronze Age (5400 B.C.E. to 1340 B.C.E.) cultures in Greece and Turkey. By comparing 1.2 million letters of genetic code across these genomes to those of 334 other ancient people from around the world and 30 modern Greeks, the researchers were able to plot how the individuals were related to each other.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

[Novi Pazar]

Geez guys, where do l start.  

Brate Pyrro, remember the Serb-al Gerbal in Mount Sinai?  Around this peak we have Banat Gerbal, Wadi Mir, Wadi Vir etc.....Then the Romans of Rome, originally a Serbian/Etruscan/Rasena city as Ruma (around Ruma there are Serbian toponymistic towns mirroring Sinai), came up with a concocted 'theory', a magical fable Slavs/Koloveni came from a wasteland, a marshland of wicked hated gremlins known as Sclavs.

PS This Sla-veni was translated incorrectly by the Roman Military Elite who ended up overthrowing the final Etruscan Kings in 510B.C. From Etruscan inscriptions, the Etruscans (latinised from RAS-ena) called the wider Slavs as Koloveni, not Slaveni.  Koloveni means the Suns Vine or Suns Kin.  From Kolo (Sun) we had the latinised KoloDar as Calendar, which means Suns Gift......and....according to the KoloDar we are in the year 7527.  

Why do we Serbs dance to the KOLO?

[branislavnusic]

Sept 9, 2018 3:30:24 GMT -5 Novi Pazar said:

Geez guys, where do l start.  

Brate Pyrro, remember the Serb-al Gerbal in Mount Sinai?  Around this peak we have Banat Gerbal, Wadi Mir, Wadi Vir etc.....Then the Romans of Rome, originally a Serbian/Etruscan/Rasena city as Ruma (around Ruma there are Serbian toponymistic towns mirroring Sinai), came up with a concocted 'theory', a magical fable Slavs/Koloveni came from a wasteland, a marshland of wicked hated gremlins known as Sclavs.

PS This Sla-veni was translated incorrectly by the Roman Military Elite who ended up overthrowing the final Etruscan Kings in 510B.C. From Etruscan inscriptions, the Etruscans (latinised from RAS-ena) called the wider Slavs as Koloveni, not Slaveni.  Koloveni means the Suns Vine or Suns Kin.  From Kolo (Sun) we had the latinised KoloDar as Calendar, which means Suns Gift......and....according to the KoloDar we are in the year 7527.  

Why do we Serbs dance to the KOLO?

Don't forget the Serbonian lake on the Sinai peninsula as well!

[Pyrros]

Or the SERBIAN region of ZAGORA in northern Africa. Of course it means nothing in Arabian.

[branislavnusic]

Sept 10, 2018 1:03:52 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Or the SERBIAN region of ZAGORA in northern Africa. Of course it means nothing in Arabian.

is there a link so I can see?

[branislavnusic]

Moses and Jesus probably passed through the SERBONIAN bog, and drank from it, I think this is when Satan began hating Serbs/Slavs.

[Pyrros]

Sept 10, 2018 1:08:45 GMT -5 branislavnusic said:

Sept 10, 2018 1:03:52 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Or the SERBIAN region of ZAGORA in northern Africa. Of course it means nothing in Arabian.

is there a link so I can see?

easily :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagora

[branislavnusic]

Sept 10, 2018 1:13:23 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Sept 10, 2018 1:08:45 GMT -5 branislavnusic said:

is there a link so I can see?

easily :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagora

SLAVIC toponyms in semitic countries!!!! this is amazing

[Novi Pazar]

Sept 10, 2018 1:03:52 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Or the SERBIAN region of ZAGORA in northern Africa. Of course it means nothing in Arabian.

Brate, SERBO in Ethiopia.

[Novi Pazar]

Sept 10, 2018 1:15:24 GMT -5 branislavnusic said:

Sept 10, 2018 1:13:23 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

easily :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagora

SLAVIC toponyms in semitic countries!!!! this is amazing

Syria (Siria) evolved from Asurbia etc.....Nicolae Iorga (Romanian) mentions the name Serbia comes in many forms like: Sirbia, Surbia, Sorbia, Sarapis, Asurbia etc.

[Pyrros]

Sept 10, 2018 6:56:57 GMT -5 Novi Pazar said:

Sept 10, 2018 1:15:24 GMT -5 branislavnusic said:

SLAVIC toponyms in semitic countries!!!! this is amazing

Syria (Siria) evolved from Asurbia etc.....Nicolae Iorga (Romanian) mentions the name Serbia comes in many forms like: Sirbia, Surbia, Sorbia, Sarapis, Asurbia etc.

That would explain why all this western bestiality against Syrbia.

[branislavnusic]

Sept 10, 2018 7:05:40 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Sept 10, 2018 6:56:57 GMT -5 Novi Pazar said:

Syria (Siria) evolved from Asurbia etc.....Nicolae Iorga (Romanian) mentions the name Serbia comes in many forms like: Sirbia, Surbia, Sorbia, Sarapis, Asurbia etc.

That would explain why all this western bestiality against Syrbia.

and Arab countries in general

[branislavnusic]

Sept 10, 2018 6:50:58 GMT -5 Novi Pazar said:

Sept 10, 2018 1:03:52 GMT -5 Pyrros said:

Or the SERBIAN region of ZAGORA in northern Africa. Of course it means nothing in Arabian.

Brate, SERBO in Ethiopia.