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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 6:40:49 GMT -5
no i prefer to ask bosnians who were stabbed in the back repeatedly by croats, croats have an uncanny ability that right after signing a ceasefire agreement they mark occasion by gently placing a blade in your back. i think i'll wait until we build up a couple of more highways and spuce up some building before i get to a level where i can have a conversation with a superior species from croatia where organised crime and killing journalists is virtually an unknown phenomenon Sounds like your confused. Ask yourself which country took in the most amount of Bosniak refugees? These people had no where else to go yet Croatia spent much money making sure the refugees had a roof over their heads and food to eat not just tents like you saw with kosovars in Albania. Add to that Croatia had its own conflict and it's own refugees. You know nothing of the Bosnian war and the Croats' role in it. Many Croats died in places like Sarajevo. My mother is from Sarajevo. We never swore allegiance to Alija and he didn't react to the violence in Bosnia until his own muslims were in the Serb crosshairs. The violence in Bosnia didn't start when the Muslims and Serbs started fighting but when the Serbs slaughtered the Bosnian Croat village of ravno mOnths before the first shot was fired in Sarajevo. Look up the ravno massacre. Instead of the muslim leadership standing with us as Bosnian brothers against this clear act of aggression they insisted it "wasnt their war" even though it was on Bosnian soil simply because we were Croats and who cares because not a Muslim soul was murdered yet. Learn your facts. I have no issue with Albania. In fact I applaud your country for making huge progress since the days of your brutal dictator. Just some of your idiots on the forum here behave like they were brought up in a gypsy circus. |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 6:43:33 GMT -5
Are you ashamed of how the peaceful janjevo Croats were treated in Kosovo?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 6:50:17 GMT -5
I thought the kosovar Albanian leadership swore to protect the minorities such as the non violent and historical janjevo Croat community. Our church was desecrated even though some Albanian Catholics were members too. There were a few thousand Croats and now only a few hundred remain. What did those people ever do to Albanians or Serbs to deserve terrible treatment from both?
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Post by albpaion on Jun 5, 2012 7:02:00 GMT -5
Albpaion Krushevo is Bulgarian town with Bulgarian majority ! 4273 Bulgarians / 1000 vlachs, not a single albanian ! In Veles 40.269 Bulgarians and 91 albanians ! In central Macedonia there are just a few albanians... As u said the border is around Vardar, but in Tetovo, Debar and Gostivar and the villages there are living many Bulgarians ! The "so-called" Bulgarians in Kosovo are 50.000 people, they are speaking Bulgarian and they identify as NASHENCI wich means Bulgarian. At the moment a lot of them are taking Bulgarian passports, very soon all of them will have ! Bulgarians in Kosovo and Albania are speaking BULGARIAN and they are not influenced by UDBA propaganda, that's why they don't feel macedonian but BULGARIAN ! In Albania are living 100.000 Bulgarians and this is a proven fact ! If u want to join EU, u have to recognise them ! U also have to recognise the vlachs, the greeks etc. 30 % of the population in Albania is not albanian. That's a fact ! Your statistics are flawed and do not represent the reality. Check out the recent census. In Veles (you should count all the municipality, not just the city) Albanians consist more than 6% of whole populace, that is to say more than 5000. The villages of Gorno, Dolno Jabolchishta and Gorno Vranovci are largely Albanian. In Krushevë the number of Albanians is quite larger. They are the 2nd ethnic group (consisting of 2,064 or 21.3% of general population). There are around 6,081 or 62.8% who identify themselves as Macedonians not as Bulgarians. Whereas the 'Bulgarians' of Polog valley to which you're referring to belong to the 'Torbeshi' and Mijak groups. They never counted themselves as Bulgarians for they have a quite distinct culture from both Bulgarians and Serbians. In many points, their culture is quite similar to that of Albanians. Their dances, customs and dress are seemingly Albanian. Bear in mind that a number of Slavic-speaking in Western Macedonia are nothing else but Orthodox Albanians, who got slavizied during Serbian period (from 1913 onward). A number of them are turning into Albanians. One of them, Branko Manjolovski publicly call for turning into their roots, namely Albanian. The outskirts of Manastir (or Bitola as you call) are entirely Albanian for there are a cluster of Albanian villages at the nearby of Greek frontier). Struga is entirely Albanian, while even the Ohrid has Albanians, albeit their number has decreased greatly. Kërçova is massively Albanian. I agree that a number of Gorani are taking Bulgarian passport but this is not to say that they are really Bulgarian. That community has miserable conditions, so they accept the Bulgarian citizenship in order to improve their status. Believe me, they don't care much for the nationality. Because if they were Bulgarians, as you claim, then they would not accept Serbian passports as well. The numbers you give for minorities in Albania are grossly inflated. There is not a chance that Greeks, Vlachs and others consist 30% of population. In the last census, the number of Greeks has decreased considerably: only 27.000 identified themselves as Greeks. This speaks volume for most of them were Orthodox Albanians who have forged their nationality because were financed by Greece. The decline of their number coincide with the Greek financial crisis, right? P.S: Btw, your signature "The grave of Pavlos Melas is my toilet" is great  |
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Post by albpaion on Jun 5, 2012 7:14:04 GMT -5
I thought the kosovar Albanian leadership swore to protect the minorities such as the non violent and historical janjevo Croat community. Our church was desecrated even though some Albanian Catholics were members too. There were a few thousand Croats and now only a few hundred remain. What did those people ever do to Albanians or Serbs to deserve terrible treatment from both? Since I am originally from a village in nearby of Janjevë, I guess that your personal perception is quite erroneous and do not reconcile with the reality. The coexistence between local Croats and Albanians is just excellent. There is no inter-ethnic clash so far. I assure you that never will be because Croats of Janjevë shared the fortune of their Albanian neighbors. They were victims of ethnic cleansing because Serbs wanted to take vengeance for their catastrophe in Croatia. I think the decline of their number in Janjeve is better explained by the Milloshevic's policies. I don't know much about the desecration of Catholic church. It has nothing to do with hatred in ethnic or religious basis. If you were in Kosova, you would already know that from all religious objects, mosques are mostly "sacked" by few brigands. This dismantle the myth spread by the Serbians that Muslims desecrate constantly 'orthodox churches'... |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 7:35:19 GMT -5
I thought the kosovar Albanian leadership swore to protect the minorities such as the non violent and historical janjevo Croat community. Our church was desecrated even though some Albanian Catholics were members too. There were a few thousand Croats and now only a few hundred remain. What did those people ever do to Albanians or Serbs to deserve terrible treatment from both? Since I am originally from a village in nearby of Janjevë, I guess that your personal perception is quite erroneous and do not reconcile with the reality. The coexistence between local Croats and Albanians is just excellent. There is no inter-ethnic clash so far. I assure you that never will be because Croats of Janjevë shared the fortune of their Albanian neighbors. They were victims of ethnic cleansing because Serbs wanted to take vengeance for their catastrophe in Croatia. I think the decline of their number in Janjeve is better explained by the Milloshevic's policies. I don't know much about the desecration of Catholic church. It has nothing to do with hatred in ethnic or religious basis. If you were in Kosova, you would already know that from all religious objects, mosques are mostly "sacked" by few brigands. This dismantle the myth spread by the Serbians that Muslims desecrate constantly 'orthodox churches'... That's not the story I heard and I talked to a Croat from janjevo in Zagreb. The relations in janjevo were never great but at least peaceful until recently. The Croats voted in favor of kosovar independence as a show of respect to the majority but were not returned the same respect. The Albanians did everything possible to encourage the Croats to leave. The Albanian govt wanted to replace the Croat catholic clergy with Albanian priests. They wanted to force Croat children out of their private education and to learn Albanian as their mother tongue. In other words they didn't want more Slavs and wanted to albanianize the small Croat community. Worst of all the catholic church was vandalized by Albanian hooligans as a threat and the alb officials blamed it On non existent Serbs and did not do much for justice. Only a few hundred Croats remain. I just wish more Albanians would condemn this but they won't because Croats are "Slavs" and merely A catholic version of "serbs" in their narrow view. |
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Post by albpaion on Jun 5, 2012 11:19:18 GMT -5
That's not the story I heard and I talked to a Croat from janjevo in Zagreb Then it's worthless to discuss further. It's the point of view expressed by one individual that has no clue about what's happening here. I don't grasp for what reason Albanians had to exterminate Croatians from Janjevë? The Croatians left Janjevë because of their miserable conditions as did thousands of Albanians who went abroad to seek a better life. The population of Janjevci has decreased since the 1970s. Since 1971, the Janjevci have immigrated from Janjevo to Zagreb and Kistanje, causing a decline in the population of the JanjevciAre you suggesting that Albanians during Tito's rule compelled Croatians to abandon Janjevë? That's weird. Do you have any source to back up or you just heard from your friend? Albanians perceived Croatians as Croatians, not as Serbs. Croatians in Janjevë have their guaranteed rights, their schools, political representatives, etc. There are some attempts to recognize Croatians as a national minority inside Republic of Kosova. It means that Croatians will have a seat on the Parliament of our country. I never heard Croatians of Janjevë complaining for being suppressed or something like that. I bet their position is hundreds time better than that of Croatians in Serbia. Do you think so? Then how come that thousands of Albanians sided up with the Croatian resistance during 90s? As war in Croatia broke out, hundreds of Albanians deserted from Yugoslav army and went in the side of Croatians. I've just one to mention some distinguished figures: Rrahim Ademi en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahim_AdemiAgim Çeku who served as general in the Croatian army: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agim_%C3%87ekuBekim Berisha, one of the most valiant soldiers in Croatia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekim_Berisha |
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 12:03:14 GMT -5
Its not just one individual. It's several families that have recently moved from Janjevo. I didn't claim this guy was an expert in political analysis but why would he make this up? What benefit does he stand to gain? I didn't say exterminate. Albanians never came with guns and drove Croatians out of their homes like what happened to Croatians in other parts of Ex-Yugo. What I'm saying ( or these Janjevci are saying) is that there was definite encouragement to leave. Relatively speaking the Croat community there was somewhat affluent ( as Croatians typically tend to be) until conditions forced on them from the outside by both Serbs and Albanians 'encouraged' them to leave because they no longer felt secure. The vandalism is a fact for example. I'll grant you that but there is a difference between steady decline and a sharp decline over a short period of time and that's when Kosovo came under almost full jurisdiction of Albanian authorities. You don't go from a few thousand to merely a few hundred in such a short period of time without something going on. Croatians in Yugoslavia were the largest emigre group by far. Croatian dissatisfaction with conditions in Yugoslavia extend far beyond Janjevo. I didn't look it up but I don't see why he would lie. Again , what reason would there be? He gains nothing. I'll grant you it is his personal eyewitness opinion and of course this is always subject to scrutiny. A Norway diplomat also noticed the troubles facing the Kosovar Croats from both Serb and Albanian pressure. www.norway-kosovo.no/News_and_events/Policy/Kosovo-Croats-----Visit-to-Janjevo/^ Maybe you'll take into consideration an impartial observer? Then why do some Croatians feel threatened to speak their mother tongue in public? It sounds too much like Serbian to the Albanians. Could be a case of mistaken identity but that's a problem in itself anyway. Then speak to your fellow countrymen, Kosovar Croats , and see what they actually say. They are very concerned. And no , Serbs have rights in Croatia that extend beyond that of just some minority. They are officially recongized , they have reserved seats in the sabor , their language is official, and their churches are exempt from taxation when even some of the Catholic churches still pay a state tax. And this speaks to the hard times faced by Kosovar Croats even more. When Serbs abandoned their homes in Croatia (Kistenje) they were illegally occupied by Kosovar Croats but lawfully returned with compensation to Serb returners. The Kosovar Croats through private donations built a settlement of their own while the Serb returners were given state subsidies. Nothing of the sort was offered to Kosovar Croats to return to their real homes in Republic of Kosovo. Thousands? What? Maybe a few dozen but thousands? In which Croatian divisions were they present? I'll give you that some Albanians who used to be Yugoslav officers became Croatian officers, everyone knows this and they were honored for their service in Croatia accordingly even offered pensions. I mean jeez , where were these 'thousands' of Albanian soldiers when Vukovar was being pummeled for 90 days? But those Albanian officers didn't do it out of loyalty to Croatia or even some unique sympathy for the Croatian people. They did it because politically they knew if the Croats rise against Belgrade there just might be a realistic shot for Albanians to break free too so they did it to weaken Serbia. But hey that's understandable. These Albanian officers left after the war was over. The Kosovar Croats are ( were) residents of Kosovo and their very future depends ( depended) on the future course of that state and its well being. |
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Post by albpaion on Jun 5, 2012 13:48:50 GMT -5
and no , Serbs have rights in Croatia that extend beyond that of just some minority. They are officially recongized , they have reserved seats in the sabor , their language is official, and their churches are exempt from taxation when even some of the Catholic churches still pay a state tax I think their situation is quite the contrary. International reports points to the awkward position of them. The Croatian inhabited areas have a large scale of unemployment for Serbia do nothing to improve their conditions. The following article summarizes concisely their situation: "Croats face informal discrimination in hiring both in the private sector and among the civil service (ECDIS04-06 = 3), and they have a higher unemployment rate than the majority population. In localities where they make up a significant minority of the population, they still face underrepresentation among local governments (POLDIS04-06 = 2). However, the central government has signed a minority rights accord that was pending implementation at the end of 2006.
Croats complain that they are not adequately represented and that their culture is suppressed. They continually campaign for Croatian textbooks to be used in schools with Croatian students and for Croatia radio and TV programs".www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=34507The above-mentioned problems make plain the fact that Croatians are not adequately treated by the Serbs. The Croatian inhabited areas have decreased significantly since 1910: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Linguistic_map_of_Vojvodina%2C_Serbia_%28based_on_1910_census%29.pngWhile the current situation appears that way: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Vojvodina_ethnic2002.jpg/800px-Vojvodina_ethnic2002.jpgI made a little research on Albanian press relating that question. It is believed that more than 3000 Albanians fought voluntarily on the side of Croatians: www.albasoul.com/vjeter/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1683Croatian veterans have often express their deep gratitude to the help of Albanians. I do not know much details in which divisions they were joined but fact is that Croatian army has appreciated their contribution: It was merely their sympathy to the resistance of Croatian people. Most of Albanians left their jobs and families only to fight along Croatians. I don't even preclude that a certain number of them went in war as to weak as much as possible Serbia. But even the Croatian diplomats have tried to mobilize Albanians to start war the first. I remind an Albanian journalist who stated that Tuxhman, Mesiç and others put forth the idea of arming Albanians in order to stir up the war with the Serbia. But the stream of history went different. |
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Post by Shqipni13 on Jun 5, 2012 15:46:51 GMT -5
^And why did these Albanians fight alongside the Croats? Were they taken care of by Tudjman? Was it purely out of spite towards Serbia? It's nothing to boast about, I actually find it embarrassing to an extent. How many Croats joined the KLA? Enough said
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 21:52:11 GMT -5
We must have misunderstood each other. It happens. I thought you said that Croats in Kosovo are treated better than Serbs in Croatia. Clearly you meant Croats in Kosovo are treated better than Croats in Serbia ( or rest of Serbia - I'm not going to get political here , Kosovo-Serbia conflict interests me only as far as how the Croatian minority fares there)
This is good information , thank you for that , I already knew about it though. But this is for another topic. I was specifically talking about the Kosovar Croats who are rightfully concerned about their future either in an Albanian or Serbian Kosovo.
I question the 3,000 figure. Its a nice thought but is there any real evidence to that? 3,000 Albanian volunteers would be common knowledge to all Croats since that painful period is burned deeply into every Croatian memory as well as every detail. You want to get a serious look on any Croats' face , say 'domovinski rat.' A couple hundred at best seems more realistic to me plus the Croatian ministry of war kept official records of names of all foreign volunteers from Ireland to the United States and all over Europe. Surely 3,000 Albanians would be hard to miss. Also , some could have been Croatian Albanians but your community isn't large enough to sustain that many volunteers internally.
Croatian veterans express their gratitude to anyone who fought shoulder to shoulder with them to defend their country. The Albanian officers were honored with medals and pensions no different than any equivalent Croatian officer. You seem to imply that the Albanians were the decisive factor in our victory against the Serbs. The contribution ( any contribution from anyone) helped of course , but wasn't decisive I don't think.
This doesn't make sense. There were a couple well known Albanian officers that served the HV and somehow this leads to to the conclusion that legions of Albanians fought on the Croatian front lines. Again, if we had 3,000 strong Albanians on our side places like Vukovar would maybe hold with their aid. Other foreign volunteers went where the action was the heaviest. Irishmen protected the women in children in cellars during the Vukovar bombardment too.
And arm the Albanians with what? This supposes that Tudjman and Mesic had a stockpile of weapons and armaments in the first place. Not the case. Croatia barely had enough arms to arm some police units of their own. They had to smuggle weapons in. A far cry from having the ability to arm Albanians. The Croatian leadership in Yugoslavia criticized Milosevic for his deliberate rallying of the Kosovar Serbs to violence. The Croatian and Slovene delegations actually tried to continue Yugoslavia's federalist tradition while Serbians try to make it a more centralized state like the first Yugoslavia and abolish Vojvodina's and Kosovo's constitutional status. Serbian politics at the time were the most out of sync with SFRJ ideals.
The path to war started in Kosovo, everyone knew it would as soon as Milsoevic's reaction to the problems there was to encourage the Serbs to get more violent. Of course the rest of the republics were concerned with this.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 5, 2012 21:59:40 GMT -5
^And why did these Albanians fight alongside the Croats? Were they taken care of by Tudjman? Was it purely out of spite towards Serbia? It's nothing to boast about, I actually find it embarrassing to an extent. How many Croats joined the KLA? Enough said Not many Albanians did actually fight in the HV. You had a couple well known officers that joined the HV but that does not mean the regular ground troops had 'thousands' of Albanians on the front line. I believe the Albanian officers did it for political and practical reasons. They found themselves out of a job as a lot of non-Serb top officers in the JNA were forced to 'retire' early in the late 80s up to 1990. They had experience in leadership and Croatia at the time was short on military leadership when they needed it the most. Again , they saw an opportunity to weaken Serbia and empower their own people when the Croats,one of the main two dominate ethnic groups in Yugoslavia , rose against Belgrade. In fact, all of the smaller ethnic groups , and the Serbs themselves , were most anxious about what the Croats would actually do. If the Croats remained passive then the other non-Serb ethnic groups couldn't practically do anything and there wouldn't be a war that can be won. If the Croats became active against Belgrade , then there would be a war , period. |
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