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Post by albpaion on Nov 4, 2012 17:54:38 GMT -5
Digging around online libraries, I've found a startling map which gives a totally different story about Macedonia. I am aware of the fact that Macedonia has been claimed by many. Greek & Bulgarian propaganda were most active in their pretensions over Macedonia. During XIXth century, the above states produced plenty of maps to back up their claims. Greek cartographers extended maximally the presence of Greeks by deeming all Orthodoxes as Greeks. Their Bulgarian colleagues did essentially the same thing by calling all Slavophones as Bulgarians. Considering the neutral sources (of western provenience), it must be emphasized that both ALBANIANS and VLACHS made up a considerable portion of Macedonia. For some time, even the Ottomans saw Macedonia as an EXTENSION of ARNAUT TERRITORIES:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2012 19:09:01 GMT -5
Hate to break it to you, but maps mean nothing, demography and population is everything. Albanians never were the main ethnic group in Macedonia, it was Greeks and Bulgarians.
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Post by albpaion on Nov 5, 2012 8:01:46 GMT -5
Hate to break it to you, but maps mean nothing, demography and population is everything. Albanians never were the main ethnic group in Macedonia, it was Greeks and Bulgarians. The statistics vary depending on the source and time of publication. Most of sources I know off do describe Albanians as a consistent ethnic group, stretching from Upper Vardar up to Haliacmon valley. Just enlarge the following maps and see the red line which marks the Albanian territory.... "The situtation in Macedonia is quite simple. Each of the three races – Greek, Bulgar, and Serb – wants to assert its own nationality as far as possible and as far as it can to claim Macedonia for itself. As solon as one becomes very powerful the ther to unite against it. Now the Vlachs are beginning to develop a nacional feeling too, so there is a fourth element. The Albanians do not enter the lists because they are secure in their mountains, and no one tries to Hellenize, or Bulgarize, or Serbianate, or Vlachize them". The Orthodox Eastern Church - Page 326 Adrian Fortescue - 1908
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2012 11:46:46 GMT -5
There are many sources indeed to choose from, my I prefer Kanchov's studies the most, he gives a detailed description of every settlement in the region and he is very unbiased. I have studied his work and have corrected his errors from my extensive demographic knowledge of the area, he excludes the regions of Pieria, Thasos, and the town of Servia, which contain a large Greek population, he also misrepresents some villages and Bulgarophone when they were not.
As for the Albanians in the region, they were the fourth largest ethnic group in the region and they lived in the outlines in what today we call modern "Macedonia" but infact, this area was never considered to be Macedonia in ancient times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2012 12:05:25 GMT -5
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Post by albpaion on Nov 8, 2012 8:36:35 GMT -5
There are many sources indeed to choose from, my I prefer Kanchov's studies the most, he gives a detailed description of every settlement in the region and he is very unbiased. I have studied his work and have corrected his errors from my extensive demographic knowledge of the area, he excludes the regions of Pieria, Thasos, and the town of Servia, which contain a large Greek population, he also misrepresents some villages and Bulgarophone when they were not. As for the Albanians in the region, they were the fourth largest ethnic group in the region and they lived in the outlines in what today we call modern "Macedonia" but infact, this area was never considered to be Macedonia in ancient times. Kanchov's studies can hardly be taken seriously as he publicly manifested his pro-Bulgarian approaches. As a matter of fact, he extended the Bulgarian element even to those Slavs who did not identified themselves as such. My point is that no all Slavs of Macedonia had a clear identity: its evident that a large part of them considered themselves neither Bulgarian nor Serbs. If he really conducted a neutral investigation (which I really doubt), why is that he vanished the Albanians of Shkup, Kumanove and other regions, with Albanian majority? Georgi Pulevski in his writings notes that Albanians extended as far as Jakupica mountains and Bitola. Moreover, Kanchov's idea is very weird, at best. He thought Albanians as a new recent elements, possibly stemming from Albania. Such a view is untenable in the light of documents. Albanians as descendants of the Illyrians were present in Macedonia during all the time, even though their territorial extension was diminished. Back to your claim that was no Albanian at historical Macedonia. It seem clear you deliberately ignored the statistics which speak of an Albanian majority in the outskirts of Florina, Kostur and Northern Pindus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2012 16:55:06 GMT -5
There are many sources indeed to choose from, my I prefer Kanchov's studies the most, he gives a detailed description of every settlement in the region and he is very unbiased. I have studied his work and have corrected his errors from my extensive demographic knowledge of the area, he excludes the regions of Pieria, Thasos, and the town of Servia, which contain a large Greek population, he also misrepresents some villages and Bulgarophone when they were not. As for the Albanians in the region, they were the fourth largest ethnic group in the region and they lived in the outlines in what today we call modern "Macedonia" but infact, this area was never considered to be Macedonia in ancient times. Kanchov's studies can hardly be taken seriously as he publicly manifested his pro-Bulgarian approaches. As a matter of fact, he extended the Bulgarian element even to those Slavs who did not identified themselves as such. My point is that no all Slavs of Macedonia had a clear identity: its evident that a large part of them considered themselves neither Bulgarian nor Serbs. If he really conducted a neutral investigation (which I really doubt), why is that he vanished the Albanians of Shkup, Kumanove and other regions, with Albanian majority? Georgi Pulevski in his writings notes that Albanians extended as far as Jakupica mountains and Bitola. Moreover, Kanchov's idea is very weird, at best. He thought Albanians as a new recent elements, possibly stemming from Albania. Such a view is untenable in the light of documents. Albanians as descendants of the Illyrians were present in Macedonia during all the time, even though their territorial extension was diminished. Back to your claim that was no Albanian at historical Macedonia. It seem clear you deliberately ignored the statistics which speak of an Albanian majority in the outskirts of Florina, Kostur and Northern Pindus. I strongly disagree with you, Kanchov's work is based off of language, and I have dug up much information on many villages of the Macedonia area and have concluded that Kanchov's work is extremely accurate, let me say that again, EXTREMELY accurate. I am Greek, and Kanchov says that in Greek Macedonia, only around 28% percent of the population is Grekophone and I strongly believe this. I am saying this because I am not trying to prove that there was no Albanian element to Macedonia, because there most certainly was but they were a minor group in Macedonia. About Albanians being the majority in Kastoria, Florina, and Northern Pindus... I am sorry but they never were the majority in either of those areas. In the Florina region, there are only three villages that speak Albanian, and because they are entirely surrounded by Slavic speakers and the names of those villages are of slavic origin, we can assume that they are immigrants to the area, coming from some place from the Albanian mainland. The same principles apply to the Albanians in Kastoria and Manastiri. As for the northern Pindus region, that area was almost exclusively inhabited by Vlachs, with some Greek villages as well, and most of those villages have Greek names. I think that it is a well known fact that Skopje and Kumanovo were both predominately Slavic, to this day they still are. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_communities_in_Greece#Albanian_.28Arvanitika.29_speaking_communities_in_Northwestern_Greece
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2012 16:55:35 GMT -5
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Post by albpaion on Nov 9, 2012 12:44:42 GMT -5
The Albanian presence in the Florina & Kostur region has dwindled away, most notably after 1913 when boundaries were drawn by ignoring the demographic realities. Most of Albanian community has been Hellenized for they belonged to the Greek rite. Only, a few scattered villages could withstand assimilation, which is why they speak Albanian even today. But their number in XXth century was way larger. Georgi Pulevski in his trustworthy dictionary notes that Shkup, Gostivar, Tetove, Oher, Galicnik (his birthplace), Struga, Kercova, Dibra, Resnja were cities within Albania's boundaries: Of some interest is the fact that Pulevski could not distinguish at all between Albanians and Macedonians (i.e Slav-speaking communities of Western Macedonia). This very fact leads to the conclusion that Albanian were the absolute majority (I am referring to the Western Macedonia) as they were able to extend their influence upon Slavs in a considerable degree. He wrote the following: Ашту еде шкипетарет јане њерез де венди и тире ашт МАКЕДОНИЈА!" (a rough translation: Even the Albanians are people whose country is Macedonia). In another chapter, he goes to mention that Macedonians who used to live in Bessarabia were called ALBANIANS. P.S: By the way, I'd like to express my gratitude for providing Kanchov's studies. I've to check them up in detail!
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Post by tsompanos on Nov 11, 2012 7:46:01 GMT -5
the greeks were a majority in the vilayet of monastiri and thessaloniki that basically covers most of what is real macedonia the rest i don't really give a crap about
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2012 12:31:25 GMT -5
the greeks were a majority in the vilayet of monastiri and thessaloniki that basically covers most of what is real macedonia the rest i don't really give a crap about I am not very knowledgeable on this but many "Greeks" were actually half-Hellenized Bulgarians who still spoke Bulgarian. The number of real Greeks must have been relatively high though. I don't know if the real Greeks made up the majority of present-day Greek Macedonia (Vardar Macedonia as the Slavs call it) but the southern part of it was probably almost totally Greek.
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