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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 8, 2008 18:12:26 GMT -5
Doesnt that go for everything, for every situation in our world? You cannot say thats a fact that goes for Greeks only.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 8, 2008 18:14:17 GMT -5
Doesnt that go for everything, for every situation in our world? You cannot say thats a fact that goes for Greeks only. Of course. That is why I said to Canaris, "it is not about the genes". |
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 8, 2008 19:33:16 GMT -5
But I hope you dont exclude the possibility that humans are able to affect to a certain extent their fortune, be it positively or negatively. Nothing is absolute.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 9, 2008 8:05:00 GMT -5
But I hope you dont exclude the possibility that humans are able to affect to a certain extent their fortune, be it positively or negatively. Nothing is absolute. True. Culture is the aspect you're refering to. For instance, although subsidies from the US helped revive Japan's economy during the post-war era, if it wasn't for the well-known Japanese work ethics, they would not be the second greatest economy in the world now. But in this specific case, i.e. the Balkans, people are quite similiar to each other. Greece's progress has not to do with you being more hardworking than other nations. It has to do alot with the factors I cited earlier. |
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 9, 2008 9:26:05 GMT -5
We are not harder working than other Balkanians but our advantageous position within the balkans today is also a result of decisions which our politicians have made in past...in times of war...(so after both world wars we were on the side of the victorious powers)....and it wasnt always that easy as someone could think...taking sides in a war is always very risky...in world war I for example our king wanted Greece to keep a neutral position, and Venizelos declared in Northern Greece because of that a new government...we had actually a dichotomy of Greece back then...
what I want to say is that we arent today the economically most powerfull country in the Balkans because we were out and out luckers all the time. We did fight for that, people died for that, we even risked our countrys union...and in the end we had the luck to be on the side of the winners.
Another important political move was the admission to the European Union, which was as well not that easy as you people always like to make it look. Only thanks to our prime minister Karamanlis we got a member of the EU...many countries (such as Germany) were clearly against it, but in the end Karamanlis could convince the Europeans that we would be an enrichment (not so much an economical as rather a political) to the union, and we were surely not admitted because they wanted to make us a present.....policy doesnt know gifts.
If this all was so easy and foreseeable....why didnt our neighbours do it the same way then?
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Post by diurpaneus on Mar 9, 2008 10:28:21 GMT -5
Vlach.  How did you know? |
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 9, 2008 10:59:11 GMT -5
my instinct told me that. ;D
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 9, 2008 12:05:16 GMT -5
Kasto
But Albanians also fought and died for a prosperous and united Albania! The same goes for the rest of the Balkanians. Yet Greece still went ahead .... ! In other words, the factors I cited must be taken into consideration.
Now naturally one must admit that your politicians did a wise decision in supporting the Allies in WWII. In this particular regard, we've been far less fortunate (Zogu, Hoxha etc). But then again, Germany and Austria are far more developed than Greece. So everything cannot be explained by this factor.
When you speak of EU, that is precisely where I was aiming at. You did not deserve membership, in the sense that you did not meet the necessary requirements for membership. But through some diplomatic tricks and also a desire in the west to consolidate the fragile democracy of Greece and ensure your integration into the euro-atlantic structures, you had the great fortune of receiving EU membership which secured your economy to a great extent. This was not, as Basil wishes to think, the result of Greeks being harder workers or more honest than Albanians; that is wishful thinking which does not explain why Greece is where it is.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 9, 2008 16:36:33 GMT -5
When I said we fought I meant in WW I and II.
You cannot compare Germany and Austria with Greece. Before ww II Germany (with Austria as a part of it) was one of the most powerful countries in the world with a great (not to say the greatest) industry. Surely much had been destroyed in war but the country had nevertheless a very strong basis so that they did "regenerate" after the war, there didnt take place a basic change of the peoples living conditions as we have it in Greece.
As for the EU, I dont think we can talk of "tricks" here...thats insulting. I said above Karamanlis convinced the Europeans, and thats what I still think, that Greece was an enrichment, that means both the EU and Greece would benefit. Greece had a great strategic position, Greece had the biggest merchant navy (70% of the merchant navy of the EU), then Greece's great relations to the arabic world were as well a criterion...and then also (but this may be a less improtant reason) Greece's symbolic importance for a united Europe...the word Europe is Greek. A European Union without Greece is like a Cheeseburger without cheese.
I dont say we joined the EU because were such a great people, or a superior race, but I think Greece deserved the membership, surely not because of its economy, but economy is not everything.
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Post by captainalbania on Mar 10, 2008 1:56:08 GMT -5
WTF? Is this for real? A contest on who is darker. None of the "dark" greeks are really Greeks.
I saw some pictures of some clearly gypsies that had a north indian phenotype and some who had a iranid phenotype.
Greeks are white, the others who pose as Greeks and claim to be Greek and are not white, are not really Greek, but foreign elements.
Quit trying to instigate our Greek members, be nice Luma.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 10, 2008 4:08:19 GMT -5
Forget them then. My point is nevertheless valid. Greece is where it is very much because of your early EU membership.
I doubt this Karamanlis would have succeeded in persuading the Germans and the French if they were initially totally reluctant about a Greek membership. But as I said; Greece was in a danger zone with a fragile economy. The communist threat was real, and the Westerners wanted to secure Greece.
But you did not 'deserve' it anymore than other nations in my opinion. Your membership was strategic, that's all.
But thanks for agreeing with me on the last part; but try convincing Basil. The guy seems to live in a dream world. I am even sure he even puts on a dress to imitate a Spartan and chants "war" every evening, lol.
Captain
Shumë bre je duke i mborjtur grekët ... ndërsa ata u mbyten duke na sharë. Të kuptoj se cfarë po përpiqesh të bësh, por balancohu ... se ke nisur të bëhesh më grek se greku.
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Post by Duke John on Mar 10, 2008 4:18:42 GMT -5
WTF? Is this for real? A contest on who is darker. None of the "dark" greeks are really Greeks. I saw some pictures of some clearly gypsies that had a north indian phenotype and some who had a iranid phenotype. Greeks are white, the others who pose as Greeks and claim to be Greek and are not white, are not really Greek, but foreign elements. Quit trying to instigate our Greek members, be nice Luma. The pictures of greeks and albanians i posted are all ethnic greeks and ethnic albanians, im not "trying" anything, im "prooving" that greeks are much darker and much eastern looking people than an avarage ethnic albanian, callin albanians as turks arabs gypsys buy greeks is just nonsence and absurd, they the greeks are the last nation in europe to call someone with the names which refer to east!. |
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 10, 2008 15:26:20 GMT -5
thats bullcrap, if it was to save Greece from communism the Americans wouldnt have dispossessed our dictator in 1974. And if this would have been the main reason Greece would have been admitted in 1975, 1976 and not 7 years later.
Call it whatever you want, our membership was right and we also deserved it. We fulfilled the requirements Albania wouldnt have done, even if it wasnt a communist country.
You dont begrudge the development of our country to us, because your country is still the poorhouse of Europe and your people are working for us to great extent today. Many albanians are talking like that...and its very disrespectful.
If you people would show (among other things) some more respect for us...you wouldnt face in Greece so much prejudice and discrimination.
There comes a peasant with three fabric parts as clothing and 45kg live weight and starts to tell the Greeks that they dont deserve their living conditions. Thats impudent, outrageous and just ridiculous, instead of judging others you should first of all learn to bake bread.
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Post by fannoli on Mar 10, 2008 15:40:22 GMT -5
Many Greeks are were they are today because USA saved them from communism. Their economy is still the among the poorest in EU(alongisde Czech, Portugal).
So unfortunately for the other Balkan countries that were under communism they suffer economically, which gives Kasto the right to talk chit.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 10, 2008 15:56:59 GMT -5
Still doesn't change the fact that the West helped you, saving you from communism, and that it was what they wanted.
Perhaps. But not because Greeks are 'better' or harder workers. Rather because the Greek society has always to a great extent been a commercial one. The Albanians developed in another path. Much like the Athens-Sparta divide.
And you did not 'earn' your membership. The West wanted to consolidate your fragile economy and pro-west orientation in order to not lose another (south)eastern European country to communism.
Why should I respect you? Because West gave you all the support they never gave us, hence we're not on pair!? Poor reason. I personally respect Slovenia far more, who despite having been under the grip of communism made a comeback and surpassed you. That's respect.
Well I am not that immigrant. Standing at 90kg, being educated and above all never having even been to Greece, I do not have to be 'grateful' to you for anything. Don't talk to me as if I was an Albanian immigrant in Greece.
Having established that, let's establish this too; do not put words into my mouth. I never said you didn't deserve your current standards of living. I merely pointed out that Basil's view on how you became so 'rich' and we so 'poor' are biased, unreal and self flattering.
Finally, although I am not an Albanian immigrant in Greece, I feel obliged to speak in their name; respect must be mutual for it to be sincere and real. I don't think they came and told you that you didn't deserve your living standards. I think they came to Greece to find jobs and enjoy the welfare you Greeks have been enjoying. But it isn't a charity case. Their work has contributed to Greece's economy; their impact on the Greek society is bigger than the Arvanite one ever was. And they have also been discriminated; this because of media generalizing an entire nation. If the same was to happen to you, would you be all cosy and warm about your 'hosts'?
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 10, 2008 17:18:31 GMT -5
Slovenia had always been the most industrialized part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was without any doubt one of the richest communist countries. When they got independent all this industry which had to provide whole yugoslavia was concentrated on 20.000 km² and 2 mio people...big deal.
And since you have never been to Greece you cannot tell me what albanian immigrants have done or said. First of all Albanians were in 1990 people with low educational background in average, I hope you wont argue that.
And you know what...during a forensic practical ...I noticed that 95% of all crimes that are submitted to court...are committed by people with low education, its uneducated people who come to blows...who rob and kill with base motives. Education is the best mean against deliquency.
What I want to say is...since you know your people were especially in 1990 rather an uneducated people+more or less savage mountain people, you have to realize finally that its no fairy tale, when Greeks were saying (and still are) that the crimes committed by albanians were of totally new nature and a huge shock for their society, that was not propaganda, at least not absolutely.
You are still thinking Greeks are the bad ones who did have only one motive...and that was to harm, torture, discriminate albanians, while your compatriots came as naive victims waiting for their abuse by the Greek society....
Doesnt matter....Im tired of discussing this all again and again, I anyway wont change your mind, but at least be honest and admit your antipathy against Greeks, why do you never praise Greece's positive development, while slovenia is presented here as the great super country (an that only to abase Greece)...why dont you look at their background and only at ours? Be honest not because I care much about your honesty, be it for a neutral third...since he shall know that here isnt talking an unbiased person about Greece's situation and relations to its immigrants.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 10, 2008 21:29:23 GMT -5
How did Slovenia surpass us...? Last time I checked... they were poorer than Portugal..... Come Donnie let you negativity.... of Greece for once subside.....  |
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Post by grksdied4you on Mar 10, 2008 23:31:23 GMT -5
Ey Donnie,
You speak out of pure ignorance and jealousy. The Greeks fought a civil war. You know the communists lost? Where do Greeks take credit for there destiny in your eyes? Or have we accomplished nothing?
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Post by grksdied4you on Mar 10, 2008 23:42:14 GMT -5
Boy you really have something personal against Greece, I THINK?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 11, 2008 8:17:02 GMT -5
I think it is a great deal. The country was under communism and hasn't been enjoying the luxoury of an EU membership for so long like you.
I may not have been to Greece, but I ave acquainted Albanians who have lived there and still live there as immigrants. My father went as a tourist there in the '80s as well, and my uncle was there as late as last summer. Not to mention everything that's available for reading concerning the Albanians in Greece.
And then you wonder why Albanians feel resentment for you, lol.
Firstly, what proof is there that they were 'uneducated'? Although with a tendency of having a one-sided education, the education system of communist Albania was nevertheless well established in both urban and rural areas. I would argue that it is one's economical predispositions that determin whether you become a criminal or not. Many Albanians probably took that path ... but I think the Greeks have exaggerated as well. I do not think there is a disproportionate overrepresentation of Albanians in Greek prisons. I think a general picture has been portrayed by media and certain politicians in order to inject a delusion such as the one you're currently displaying of the "savage, uneducated Albanian".
Most Albanians, however, as any fair-minded and objective researcher might find out, did their earning in an honest way and contributed to the economy of Greece. The shock of the shere numbers of the Albanians and the 'cultural confrontation' is a different issue, and many Greek nationalists probably want to narrow these differences in unrealistic fantasies such as the one you presented.
Wrong. Unlike you, I do not like to make clear-cut divides between the 'good' and the 'bad'. These elements exists in both sides. I acknowledge that alot of Albanians did do and still do bad things around in Europe, including Greece, which in consequence soils our collective name. Likewise, I believe that the Greek institutions and media have carried out a racist policy towards these people in such a way that their labour was exploited but their integration halted with the clear purpose of having the choice to expell the Albanians from there when time saw it fit.
Personally, I would very much like for the Albanians of Greece to return or migrate elsewhere. Hopefully their place will be taken by Kurds, Iraqis, Nigerians, Bangladeshis. Honestly.
Again, you keep judging me by your standards. Stop doing that. My feelings for the Greeks are mixed and cannot be described by the word 'antipathy'. I feel antipathy for certain elements within Greece, an element which can be summarized into the name of one member here, namely Pyrrhos. I dislike Greece's immigrant policies and their general attitude towards Albania and the Albanians. But on the other hand, I do acknowledge Greece's grande past, its achievements but also the fact that there is a sizeable group out there which isn't chauvinistic and all about 'Megali idea'. This forum, with members such as Canaris, Double Falcon, ApolloGre & BibleRiot (although the latter chooses to identify as British) have contributed to this changed image of mine of what being Greek is and implies. This and real life experiences.
But in this particular thread, I wanted to counter Basil's moronic statement. I don't grasp why you find this so mindblowing. If Albanians come with BS comments on the Greek forum about the Greek people, will you start speaking of the positive aspects of Albania? No.
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