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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 9, 2007 20:11:34 GMT -5
^ A war will happen sooner or later because the only thing that can solve BiH's problems is Co-operation and Unity, or a Full Scale War. Muslims weren't the ones that started cleansing mass areas and cities. There's always one side that starts it and all sides resort to it. This war shouldn't have happened if polititians were to come to terms at the beginning, but they didn't and to this very day, it's still unresolved No one ‘started it’. All sides committed ethnic cleansing simultaneously. A full-scale war can never happen as long as Bosnia is a protectorate of the U.N/E.U.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 20:18:25 GMT -5
^ All sides started simultaneously? Give me links to prove so.
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Post by zgembo on Oct 9, 2007 20:20:44 GMT -5
Muslim victim mentality? If its anyone that were victims its them. Istocna Bosna was completely cleared out of all Muslims, even though they had 466,458 people, as per the numbers you posted. They are down to 32,000. Think of the injustices for genocide, ethnic cleansing, and the spreading of hatred throughout the nation (In the eyes of Bosniaks/Muslims). The next war in Bosna will make even more displacements, and this war is on the horizon and soon to come. The question is only what will set it off. There were close to 600,000 Serbs in Croatia prior to the war. There are 200,000 today. There were 485,000 Serbs in the Federation prior to the war. There are 50,000 today. In Kosovo the number was reduced from 220,000 to 50,000. Serbs are the biggest victims of the wars of the 90s.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 9, 2007 20:30:29 GMT -5
^ All sides started simultaneously? Give me links to prove so. There is absolutely no evidence that one side started ethnic cleansing before the other in Bosnia. What is known is that ethnic cleansing started around a month before the war started (mostly because minorities were intimidated to leave) by all sides simultaneously, or at least it appeared simultaneous.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 21:22:38 GMT -5
^ Marko can you give me links that support your argument? Also, was it not because of Serb nationalism that the wars in Former Juga happened? Was it not Slobodan Milosevic that started all the unrest and finally pushed Jugoslavija over the edge?
^ SG, if there is no evidence to support who started ethnic cleansing first, then why are the Serbs taking all the blame for it? Also you mentioned the fact that it "appeared" simultaneous.
Sorry if I seem to be picking on you guys like this, but I'd love to get your point of view and what you know about the whole situation. Living in Bosna for the entire war might make a man lean on one side, but I just tell it as I saw it first hand, and as my family experienced it. So please, indulge me with your thoughts/knowings.
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Post by zgembo on Oct 9, 2007 21:29:45 GMT -5
Mig, compare Croatian census results from 1991 and 2001, and compare census results from 1991 in Bosnia and Kosovo to current UN estimates. Sure, Slobodan Milosevic deserves a large amount of the blame, but I don't think you're trying to justify collective punishment. Serbs, as a people (as civilians) are arguably the biggest victims of what happened during the 90s. I think more Bosniak civilians died, but as far as refugees and lost homes are concerned, it is definitely Serbs.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 9, 2007 21:35:20 GMT -5
^ Marko can you give me links that support your argument? Also, was it not because of Serb nationalism that the wars in Former Juga happened? Was it not Slobodan Milosevic that started all the unrest and finally pushed Jugoslavija over the edge? Tudjman and Izebogovic had more to do with the death of Yugoslavia then Milosevic did. They were the ones preaching for war. ^ SG, if there is no evidence to support who started ethnic cleansing first, then why are the Serbs taking all the blame for it? Also you mentioned the fact that it "appeared" simultaneous. The Serbs got the blame because America and E.U sided with Croatian and Bosnian independence. Why were crimes against Serbs never reported or covered up? Because if it looks like the allies of America and E.U are bad then America and E.U will appear bad. Sorry if I seem to be picking on you guys like this, but I'd love to get your point of view and what you know about the whole situation. Living in Bosna for the entire war might make a man lean on one side, but I just tell it as I saw it first hand, and as my family experienced it. So please, indulge me with your thoughts/knowings. You only saw one small part of the war. To bad you didn’t learn anything from your experience.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 21:53:48 GMT -5
Marko:
But yet you agree that it is because of Milosevic that this war happened. He wanted more for the Serb people, who had an equal status as any other peoples in the SFRJ, but he took an aggressive stance. He lost control once Yugoslavia lost Stambolic. That's when it all went to nuts. The likes of Karadzic appeared on the map and the nuts hit the fan. Milosevic was put on the pedestal as a sacrefice, he was a Pro-Yugoslav, believe it or not, but its the likes of others that led Cetnik Extremists and Serb Ultranationalists (Not Ordinary, Everyday Serbs) to go to war with the other nationalities. Milosevic had no choice but to supply them and back them, because if he didn't, he would have been sacked like Rome. Dude I was peeled and glued to the television and was watching all of this happen and unfold.
SG:
Tudjman and Izetbegovic had a lot to do with it, yes they did. They created their own form of nationalism to counter the kind that was comming from Beograd. Milosevic also had a lot to do with it, he was a figurehead and a puppet. He should have put a stop to it, but didn't.
-"You only saw one small part of the war. To bad you didn’t learn anything from your experience."-
That's real nice to say. I saw things that you couldn't even imagine in your dreams little one. My experience has taught me a lot about many things, how to survive primarily. I've lost 15 good friends in that war, all civilian casualties, all under the age of 11, to "stray bullets" or "misfires". But the political factor weighed heavily in the wars in Bosna. You can be snarky all you want, and tell me that I've learned nothing, when in reality, you're the one that was born in a foreign nation, dictating imaginations and telling me that everyone was to blame equally. 13 of those 15 friends were muslims. All 15 were killed by Serb paramilitary forces. What a nice impression I got of all Serbs from the age of 7 and on until the end of war. But you know what the funny thing is, I'm actually trying to understand, and I'm being compassionate to your position, and trying to see your point of view... But then you insult me like this, and I would rather be a pain in the ass by justifying what Tudjman did as necessary, rather than side with you on the 'All take Equal Blame' story. But you know what, I'm not an asshole, and I won't do that. It's just that people assume too much, without even knowing anothers position.
BTW, to add to the list of 15 good friends.. I've lost 3 uncles, 1 aunt, 5 cousins, my Godfather (Who was Serb, and the coolest guy I've ever known), all to Serb Paramilitary Forces and local Cetnik extremists, that were, at that time, teenagers with guns filled with hatred propaganda.
Thanks for insulting me. It was a real pleasure to get to know what kind of a person you are.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 9, 2007 22:05:20 GMT -5
Marko: But yet you agree that it is because of Milosevic that this war happened. He wanted more for the Serb people, who had an equal status as any other peoples in the SFRJ, but he took an aggressive stance. He lost control once Yugoslavia lost Stambolic. That's when it all went to nuts. The likes of Karadzic appeared on the map and the nuts hit the fan. Milosevic was put on the pedestal as a sacrefice, he was a Pro-Yugoslav, believe it or not, but its the likes of others that led Cetnik Extremists and Serb Ultranationalists (Not Ordinary, Everyday Serbs) to go to war with the other nationalities. Milosevic had no choice but to supply them and back them, because if he didn't, he would have been sacked like Rome. Dude I was peeled and glued to the television and was watching all of this happen and unfold. Don’t forget how the Ustasha fired the first shots in Croatia or how the Muhamajin fired the first shots in Bosnia. SG: Tudjman and Izetbegovic had a lot to do with it, yes they did. They created their own form of nationalism to counter the kind that was comming from Beograd. Milosevic also had a lot to do with it, he was a figurehead and a puppet. He should have put a stop to it, but didn't. Their nationalism was reactionary? I seriously doubt that. When it comes to Tudjman’s Holocaust books or Izebegovic’s Islamic declaration, I would hardly consider any of them reactionary. Both of them planned the break-up of Yugoslavia long before it happened. Marko: -"You only saw one small part of the war. To bad you didn’t learn anything from your experience."- That's real nice to say. I saw things that you couldn't even imagine in your dreams little one. My experience has taught me a lot about many things, how to survive primarily. I've lost 15 good friends in that war, all civilian casualties, all under the age of 11, to "stray bullets" or "misfires". But the political factor weighed heavily in the wars in Bosna. You can be snarky all you want, and tell me that I've learned nothing, when in reality, you're the one that was born in a foreign nation, dictating imaginations and telling me that everyone was to blame equally. 13 of those 15 friends were muslims. All 15 were killed by Serb paramilitary forces. What a nice impression I got of all Serbs from the age of 7 and on until the end of war. But you know what the funny thing is, I'm actually trying to understand, and I'm being compassionate to your position, and trying to see your point of view... But then you insult me like this, and I would rather be a pain in the ass by justifying what Tudjman did as necessary, rather than side with you on the 'All take Equal Blame' story. But you know what, I'm not an not a very nice person, and I won't do that. It's just that people assume too much, without even knowing anothers position. BTW, to add to the list of 15 good friends.. I've lost 3 uncles, 1 aunt, 5 cousins, my Godfather (Who was Serb, and the coolest guy I've ever known), all to Serb Paramilitary Forces and local Cetnik extremists, that were, at that time, teenagers with guns filled with hatred propaganda. Thanks for insulting me. It was a real pleasure to get to know what kind of a person you are. I’m not going to take this bull from you. You think Serbs didn’t suffer in the war? You think the Croat and Muslim extremists didn’t target Serbs? You ignore the suffering of Serbs, you have learnt nothing. Go to hell.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 22:13:56 GMT -5
How exactly did this happen?
BTW, its not Muhamajin, its Mudjahedin.
Yes. For the protection of their own people, they had to. Kind of the same thing Milosevic/Karadzic and Co. claimed they were doing. It's a valid reason to a degree, don't get me wrong, but it's not an excuse to incite mass murders of a certain people based on what they are and what they believe.
It wasn't actually planned. The books forsaw a dissolution of the SFRJ, and the books 'planned' out how the nations after the breakup should be run. They were all extremists, yes, but it was the people who put them in power, don't forget. So if it's the people who put them in power, out of the fear of their neighbours rise in nationalism, then their positions were legitimate. They were put in place as a reaction to the rise of nationalism in Srbija.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 22:16:08 GMT -5
Did I ask you to? No.
Did I say that? No.
Did I say that at all? No.
I never ignored the suffering of Serbs. You are the one that Ignored the suffering of Bosniaks.
Argue like a man without insults.
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Post by zgembo on Oct 9, 2007 22:20:36 GMT -5
Mig, I am of the belief that it takes more than the aggressive posturing by one politician or one side to start a war. Nevertheless, I thought we were talking about victimhood of ethnic groups during the 90s here.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 9, 2007 22:26:11 GMT -5
How exactly did this happen? In Croatia, when Croatian militias attacked JNA barracks’ and in Bosnia when Muslim militias opened fire on a Serb wedding. BTW, its not Muhamajin, its Mudjahedin. Typo. It wasn't actually planned. The books forsaw a dissolution of the SFRJ, and the books 'planned' out how the nations after the breakup should be run. They were all extremists, yes, but it was the people who put them in power, don't forget. So if it's the people who put them in power, out of the fear of their neighbours rise in nationalism, then their positions were legitimate. If I remember correctly, Abdic won the Bosnian elections. But even so, I can agree that populism does give degrees of legitimacy to dictatorships. They were put in place as a reaction to the rise of nationalism in Srbija. The only thing Serbians were nationalistic about was Kosovo, they didn’t give a d**n about Croatia or Bosnia. I never ignored the suffering of Serbs. You are the one that Ignored the suffering of Bosniaks. I have never ignored the suffering of Muslims. Look, can we just not talk about personal experiences and concentrate on the broad aspects of the war? Argue like a man without insults. You can be snarky all you want, and tell me that I've learned nothing, when in reality, you're the one that was born in a foreign nation, dictating imaginations and telling me that everyone was to blame equally Hypocrite.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 22:38:54 GMT -5
Same here. I agree that blame is to be spread to all sides. No doubt about that.
For real? What exactly is this incident by name? Also can you post me a link to see?
Offcourse they didn't give a sh!t. That's why to this day, RS still exists.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 9, 2007 23:04:56 GMT -5
Croatia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_BarracksOf course the war in Croatia was much more confusing since there were two incidents before the war in which both people from both sides died and no one was able to determine who ‘started it’. Bosnia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_WarAlso, the Serbian parliament refused to declare martial law in FY after Slovenia declared independence. So much for Serbian nationalism. The RS exists because RS has always been separate from Serbia. If Milosevic had his way, RS would have been gone just like Krajina or Kosovo.
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2007 23:40:27 GMT -5
Like the Cetnik Extremists vs. the Croatian State Police. 12 Croat officers ended up dead. (Incident number one in Croatia)
Why would they want to declare Martial Law? Why not let breakaway governments develop and then crush them with the military you have. That's the main strategy to a takeover.
At least one thing we agree on.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 10, 2007 2:05:29 GMT -5
Like the Cetnik Extremists vs. the Croatian State Police. 12 Croat officers ended up dead. (Incident number one in Croatia) Chetnik extremists? I thought you agreed with reactionary nationalism. When a holocaust denier who hates your people with a passion comes into power, grabbing a gun isn’t as ‘extreme’ as you might think. The first incident involved 2 deaths, one soldier from each side. Why would they want to declare Martial Law? Why not let breakaway governments develop and then crush them with the military you have. That's the main strategy to a takeover. How is it? Wouldn’t it make more sense to destroy rebellion before they get organized?
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Post by Zvone on Oct 10, 2007 14:11:27 GMT -5
What holocaust are you talking about and who denied it?
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2007 16:35:09 GMT -5
Where did you get the 200,000 figure? Most of the Krajina refugees are in Serbia and around the world actually. It is a rough estimate. I was guessing that half settled in Vojvoda and half in Republika Srpska. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_VojvodinaThat’s strange. There seems to be less Serbs in Vojvoda now then there was in 1991. Seriously dude. Get your facts straight. #1. There are not 400,000 Serbs who can't return. miost of them do not want to return. There are not 400,000 Serbs who can't return in RS. #2. Serbs have actually been the most successful in returning. As is demonstrated by the fact that a large area of the FBiH that was depopulated by Serbs towards the end of the war is now majority Serb again. #3. The number of people in Vojvodina is lower. The number of Serbs is higer by some 10%. Not only that but those numbers aren't of the actual numbers since the 300,000 or so refugees now permanently residing in Vojvodina are not counted in that number. #4. There do you get the 200,000 RSK Serbs in RS. At most that number could be 50,000 since most are either in Serbia or somewhere else.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2007 16:42:24 GMT -5
Tudjman and Izebogovic had more to do with the death of Yugoslavia then Milosevic did. They were the ones preaching for war. Actually. They're all to blame since the actions of all three led to escalations in violence (however, Milosevic's role is not as significant as sighted in western media). Actually, America initially supported the preservation of Yugoslavia as did the EU when it initially started. It was mostly Germany who pushed for independence and it was mainly because Serbia was hostile to German reunification at a time when Germany wa sincreasing it's influcne in post-Cold War Eastern Europe. The EU and USA took an anti-serb position when the authorities in Belgrade supported (recognized) the people who carried out the August coup in the Soviet Union -- had Serb leadership not done this the 90s would have turned out differently.
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