Truths and facts..Please clear up my confusion....

[Niklianos]

Did you happen to look at the date of Parke's book? 1967! This would be very outdated archaeologically. There have been tons of excavations and discoveries in Epirus since then. I am trying to find out what education Parke has but have found nothing on him personally.

[captainalbania]

Kanaris im getting tired of you using that stupid 1000AD line when it is in fact not true.

The first mention of Albanians is by Polybius in 200BC. Read History of the World by Polybius and educate yourself.

[captainalbania]

In 100 BC Pliny mentions the "Olbonenses" Tribe.
In 200 AD Ptolemy mentions Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.


Will you stop saying that stupid 1000ad thing now that i have given you proof or will you continue in your ignorance?

[Kanaris]

Prove it... I am getting tired too... and old..

I am on a quest for 5 years now..looking for this elusive info..all you guys throw at me is a mention here and there..I want names of leaders...names of places... communities.. stories of everyday life....

[atlantis]

ok,back to the facts.........

Sometimes everything is coming so easy from greek writers but you need to read without emotions between sentences
Reading Homer will conclude:

Further, the Dodonaean Zeus is by the poet himself named 'Pelasgian': 'O Lord Zeus, Dodonaean, Pelasgian.' And many have called also the tribes of Epirus 'Pelasgian' because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that.


In the same time by Herodotus we have:

Herodotus, The Histories: But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly
because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

Again Herodot says:

Moreover it is true, as I think, of the Pelasgian race also [that they became Doric-speakers], that so far as it remained Barbarian
[not integrated in the Hellenic nation] it never made any great increase.
(Herodotus).

Again by Herodot;

And of the natives of the various other towns which are really Pelasgian,
though they have lost the name,-if one must pronounce judging
by these, the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language.

The last fragment from Herodot hand ,is a powerful one ,who was a Acahean, borne in Halikarn, Ionic city ,he wrote;


"...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.)
Let’s have a look here:

A history of Greece, from the earliest times to the destruction of Corinth by Leonhard Schmitz, Connop Thirlwall around 1830 .

" This land was called by its own sons Hellas, for which we have adpted the Roman name Greece(Graecia). The word Hellas that is, the land of the Helelnes, however, did not at all times apply to the same extent of country; according to some(Stefan Bizanti - notice), it was originally the name of a town or district in the south of Thessaly, which afterwards called Phthiotis. From that territory the name is said


"The Hellenes traced their origin to a mythical ancestor, Hellen from whose sons and grandsons whey were divided into 4 great tribes ;Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians."
According to that seems to be a contradict with Elopoulosin about matriarch and name of Greece.
In the other hand Helens and Greeks seems to be different origins?!



"Helen" colons in Italy are called Greek or no ? Who colonized Italy Don’t understand ? Greek me looks to be a name created from Romans,to mess up origins of their civilization. Anytime we mention Etruskia ,mentions Greece too.

[atlantis]

…continued

Let’s have a look here;

A classical dictionary of biography nga William Smith

"The Romans called the land of the Hellenes Graecia, whence we have derived the name of Greece. They probably gave the name to the country when they first became acquainted with the tribe of Graeci, who were said to be descendants of Graecus a son of Thessalus who appear to have dwelt in west Epirus"
to have gradually extended to the whole of Thessaly. But, according to others, the most ancient Greeks were the Selli(Selloi-ELLOI), who dwelt in and about Dodona, bearing the name Graeci(Graikoi). The Greeks themselves traced their national name to a mythical hero, Hellen, just as the Graeci derived theirs from a hero, Graecus, who is called a son of Thessalus, while Thessalus is said to have founded Dodona.
Another tradition(reference- notice) represents a son of Graecus, as ruler of Thessaly, for the Graeci are said to have migrated from the country of the Molossians, in the neighbourhood of Dodona, to Thessaly, and to have there been called Hellenes. In later times, when the Hellenes spread farther south, the name Hellas embraced a wider extent of country, and might properly be considered to reach as far as the national features of the Hellenes..."


The last part is too confused, but Iwoold like to stop at this part Selli(Selloi-ELLOI) , Who are Sells?
Who have build Dodona ?


--------------------------------------

BY Pausanias: Pausanias's Description of Greece: 6 vol. nga Pausanias and James George Frazer 1898, those are studies of Frazer in work of Pausaniasit


" the whole Greek race were called Hellenes etc. In historical times the Greeks called themselves Hellenes and their country Hellas. But they had a tradition of a time when their national name was Graikoi, which is identical with the Latin Graeci and English Greeks. Thus Aristotle(Metereologica i.14, p.352) says that Deucalion's deluge took place "in ancient Greece, and ancient Greece is the district about Dodona and the Achelous. For there dwelt the Selli and the people who were then called Grikoi but are now called Hellenes", Stephanus Byzantius-referenca te mentions a certain Graecus(Graikos), son of Thessalus, after whom the Greeks(Hellenes) were named Graikoi; and he adds that the mothers of the Greeks(Hellenes) were named Graikes by Alcman and by Sphocles in his lost play The Shepherds. The name Graikos occured in Callimachus, as we learn from the writer of Etymologicum Magnum, who tells us that the Greeks were called Graikoi either on account of their bravery or after a certain man Graikos. According to Apollodorus(i. 7.3) the change of the national name from Graikoi to Hellenes was made by Hellen, who called the people Hellenes after Himself(Hylli ?). The Parian Chronicle assigns this change of name to the year 1521 BC(Frag. Historia Graeca ed. Muller).
The remarkable coincidence between this Greek tradition and the name by which the Greeks were always known to the Romans has been variously explained by modern writers. The most obvious explanation, adopted by Prof. Curtius(Griech Geschichte p. 93), is that when the forefathers of the Greeks and Romans dwelt together, the Greeks were actualyl called Greeks(Graikoi), and that this name was preserved by the Romans after it had been abandoned by the Greeks themselves.(?)
A different view is that of Victor Hehn (Kulturpflansen und Hauthiere. p.51) He supposes that the ancestors of the Greeks, after fighting their way through the mountains and forests of the wild Illyrian coast to Dodona(pra Epirus = Iliri - shenim), settled for a time in Epirusl that they had two national names, Graikoi and Hellenes and that while the latter spread eastward, the former(Graikoi) prevailed in the westand was transmitted across the sea to the Italians."

Again from the same book;

" Hellas was originally the name of a town or district in Thessaly, and in this sense alone does it occur in Homer(Ebeling, Lexicon Homericum). The name Hellenes occurs only once in Homer(II. ii. 684), where it is applied, not to the Greeks in general, but only to the people who inhabited the Thessalian town or district of Hellas. Thucydides remarked (i. 3) that Homer never calls the Greeks Hellenes, but always Danai, Argives or Achaeans. The anme Panhallenes is found once in Homer (IL. ii.530) in the sense of "all the Greeks" but the line was rejected by Aristhacus(Ebling, Lexicon Homericum). The question whether the Homeric Hellas was a town or a district was debated in antiquity(Strabo ix. p431), and opinion is still divided on the subject/ The Roman geographers confined the name Hellas to the portion of Greece north of the Isthmus of Corinth."


…………………………………………………………………………
I’m little bit confus here ,with the name Graikoi,
Anyway let’s go on.
The priestesses went barefoot, never washed their feet and slept on the bare ground, or as Homer has Achilles say,

"Lord of Dodona, King Zeus, God of Pelasgians, O God who dwells afar, who holds harsh wintery Dodona in your sway, where your interpreters the Selli dwell with feet like roots, unwashed, and make their beds on the ground..." The Iliad 16:127 (authors translation)


According to Babiniotis (1998), the name of "Souli" derives from an Albanian word meaning 'mountain summit'.[1] An older opinion,[citation needed] dating back to the poet Andreas Kalvos (1792 - 1869) links the name to that of the "Selloi", the ancient priests of Zeus at the sanctuary of Dodona. Kalvos used this association in his ode "Åἰò Óïýëé" ('To Souli') written in honor of the Souliotes' heroic role in the struggle for Greek independence.

[Kanaris]

You are going nuts..... How can you derive anything related to Albanians form the above is beyond me... Get it through your head..... Dodona and Pelasgian has absolutely nothing to do with you... it's a wild guess one in a trillion you are taking.. I need evidence not wild guesses and what You think the Greek writers were saying.....

No one knows who the Pelasgians were...but we know one thing they were absorbed by the incoming Greeks... You guys think they moved up near Albania and lived happily every after..you wish..... ;D

[atlantis]

mikecanaris said:

You are going nuts..... How can you derive anything related to Albanians form the above is beyond me... Get it through your head..... Dodona and Pelasgian has absolutely nothing to do with you... it's a wild guess one in a trillion you are taking.. I need evidence not wild guesses and what You think the Greek writers were saying.....

No one knows who the Pelasgians were...but we know one thing they were absorbed by the incoming Greeks... You guys think they moved up near Albania and lived happily every after..you wish..... ;D

;D ;D ;D
are you going to read the whole thing ...to discass with your frends .......and make me to sleep well or still you wanna give me "a greek answer"

[Arxileas]

atlantis said:

ok,back to the facts.........

Facts ?

Again Herodot says:

Moreover it is true, as I think, of the Pelasgian race also [that they became Doric-speakers], that so far as it remained Barbarian
[not integrated in the Hellenic nation] it never made any great increase.
(Herodotus).

[not integrated in the Hellenic nation] <--- Does it really say that ?

"The Hellenes traced their origin to a mythical ancestor, Hellen from whose sons and grandsons whey were divided into 4 great tribes ;Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians."
According to that seems to be a contradict with Elopoulosin about matriarch and name of Greece.
In the other hand Helens and Greeks seems to be different origins?!

[/u][/quote]

Amazing a new discovery is made here now Greeks and Hellenes are seperate peoples

In all honnesty please provide your source of this nonsence copy and paste job.

Thank you.

[Niklianos]

Atlantis,

Greek is originally the name of a tribe in Epirus that the Romans first encountered very early. They then took that name and applied it to all the people with the same language and religion. Hellenes in that period were only those "Greeks" who claimed descent from Hellen(not to be confused with Hellen of Troy). In a later period all the 'Greek' began calling themselves Hellenes.

From Herodotus The Histories by Penguin Classics on the Pelasgians.

Book VIII, pg. 463

"When what is now called Greece was occupied by the Pelasgians, the Athenians, a Pelasgian people, were called Cranai. In the reign of Cecrops they acquired the name of Cecropidae. At the succession of Erectheus they changed their name to Athenians; and when Ion, the son of Xuthos, became general of their armies, they took from him the title of Ionians."

Book I, pgs. 21-22

" This reply gave Croesus more pleasure than anything he had yet heard; for he did not suppose that a mule was likely to become king of the Medes, and that meant that he and his line would remain in power for ever. He then turned his attention to finding out which of the Greek states was the most powerful, with a view to forming and alliance. His inquiries revealed that the Lacedaemonians were the most eminent of the Dorian peoples and the Athenians of the Ionian. These two, one originally Pelasgian the other Hellenic, were the most powerful of the Greek peoples. The Ionians are an indigenous race, but the Dorians on the contrary have been constantly on the move; their home in Deucalions reign was Pthiotis and in the regin of Dorus son of Hellen the country known as Histiaeotis in the neighborhood of Ossa and Olympus; driven from their by the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as Macednons; thence they migrated to Cryopis, and finally to the Peleponnese, where they got their present name of Dorians. Of the Pelasgian language I cannot speak with certainty, but that it was not Greek may be inferred from the language of those of Pelasgian race now living in Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who were neighbors of the people now known as Dorians when their home was in the country which we call Thessaliotis; also from the language of the Pelasgian peoples who settled at Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont and were fellow countrymen of the Athenians, and of the other Pelasgian towns which have since change their names. Granted, then, that these are a fair sample of the Pelasgian race, one may conclude that the Athenians, being themselves Pelasgian, changed their language when they were absorbed in the Greek family of nations. In Creston and Placia the same language is spoken, but it is not the language of the surrounding country: which indicates that these people did not change their language when they changed their home. I believe myself that the Greek peoples have always spoken the same language, but they were weak after their seperation from the Pelasgians of whom they were a branch, and have since grown from small beginnings to their present numbers by the addition of the various foreign elements, amongst which were the Pelasgians themselves. I do not think that the Pelasgians, a non-Greek people, ever became very numerous or powerful."

In this passage what he is saying is that the Athenians were originally a Pelasgian people who became part of the Greek world through the Greek addition of non-Greek peoples including various Pelasgian groups.

Furthermore the original Hellenes or Greeks were those who were the descendants of Hellen I.E Dorians. A tribe which was once known as Macedonian.

Here is another reference of Pelasgians becoming Ionian, thus Greek.

Book I, pg. 61

"The reason for the separation of Miletus from the other Ionians towns was simply the general weakness of the Hellenic peoples at that date, and particularly of the Ionians, who of all the Greek races had least power and influence. There was no Ionian settlement of any consequence except Athens. ..."

Skipping insignificant info to the next page.

Book I, Pg. 61

"...and that is the reason, as I have said, why the Ionians founded twelve settlements in Asia, it is quite absurd to pretend that they are any more Ionian, or of purer blood than the Ionians generally; for a large section of them were actually Abantians from Euboea, who are not Ionians at all, even in name, to say nothing of the admixture of Minyae from Orchomenus and of Cadmeians, Dryopes, Phocians from various towns in Phocis, Molossians, Arcadian Pelasgi, Dorians from Epidauros, and many others...."

So according to that large paragraph Pelasgians-Ionians were part of the Greek world. Also if you notice it mentions Molossians becoming part of the Ionian world as well.

[Arxileas]

Nikilianos would you be so kind as to post those quotes in link provided. Ones that aren't there from above post of yours.

illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=ancientgreece&action=display&thread=1191832639

Thank you.

[Niklianos]

Here is another passage that discusses the Oracle of Dodona, it's origins and Pelasgians.

Book Two, pgs.106-107

"In ancient times, as I know from what I was told at Dodona, the Pelasgians offered sacrifices of all kinds, and prayed to the gods, but without any distinction of name or title - for they had not yet heard of any such thing. They called the gods by the Greek word theoi - 'disposers' - because they had 'disposed' and arranged everything in due order, and assigned each thing to its proper division. Long afterwards the names of the gods were brought into Greece from Egypt and the Pelasgians learnt them - with the exception of Dionysus, about whom they knew nothing till much later; then, as time went on, they sent to the oracle at Dodona (the most ancient and, at that period, the only oracle in Greece) to ask advice about the propriety of adopting names which had come into the country from abroad. The oracle replied that they would be right to use them. From that time onward, therefore, the Pelasgians used the names of the gods in their sacrifices, and from the Pelasgians the names passed to Greece. But it was only - if I may so put it - the day before yesterday that the Greeks came to know the origin and form of the various gods and whether or not all of them had always existed; for Homer and Hesiod are the poets who composed theogenies and described the gods for the Greeks, giving them all their appropriate titles, offices and powers, and they lived, as I believ, not more than four hundred years ago. The poets who are said to have preceded them were, I think, in point of fact later. This is my personal opinion, but for the former part of my statement on these matters I have the authority of the priestesses of Dodona."

I will post the rest tomorrow.

[rex362]

rex362 said:

I can only say one word ......

Pelasgian

I didn't lie , did I ?

[Niklianos]

Eyine Arxileas!

Rexy, so who did the Pelasgians merge with or become? I still haven't seen any evidence that states the Pelasgians became the Illyrians?!

[rex362]

Balkan peninsula was swamped with a new people ....an explosion of new people from the east

...dont think they came in shaking hand and kissing each other ....they come in rampaging ...(like the slavic invasion )

Most Pelasgians migrated west across the adriatic and became known as Etruscans...these were the ones that could ..

others Migrated northwest balkans .....these were the have not ...these people after time became known as Illyrians....


yes ...maybe a few assimilated with the new comers ....

[Kanaris]

I thought the Romans were Entruscians??

Eennie Meenie myni mo. is that how you do it? ;D

[rex362]

Roman is what the Pelasgians/Etruscans and a mishmash of others ended up being ....

[Kanaris]

Who pushed them out of the Greek peninsula?

[Teuta1975]

Greek peninsula?

[rex362]

Who pushed them out of the Greek peninsula?


the then balkan peninsula ...."Greek" was not in any world vocabulary

some crazy eastern dark like short people screaming like they owned the place ....some had red hair and they were serving Fasolada in blue and white clay dishes