|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:28:22 GMT -5
reposting----------- So, what did Muhammed bring that was not evil and inhuman? posted by Dienekes on Saturday, September 23, 2006 "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II I am interested in hearing the opinion of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. I can't think of a single element of the Muslim religion that wasn't (i) already established or preached by previous religions, (ii) a religiously unimportant convention, or (iii) evil and inhuman. An example of category (i) is e.g., monotheism, which is an integral part of Judaism. An example of category (ii) is praying towards Mecca. An example of category (iii) is Muhammad's commandment to slay the unbelievers. So, what Islamic innovation isn't covered by (i-iii) but belongs in a category (iv) of good and positive innovations brought by Muhammed? dienekes.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_archive.html
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:31:20 GMT -5
some responses there ----------------------- Quote: From what I know of history and the limited amount of what I know about the Koran (reading it does not equate to understanding it as it relates to the time period it was written)...I would say Islam did the following:
1)It united warring Arab tribes and established a codified system for them to get along with each other, besides the old way, interlocking marriages of convenience and submission of one tribe to another.
2) It freed Arabs from a lot of ridiculous tribal religions that had superstitious beliefs that were not conducive to greater civilization being established.
3) It established strict and codified laws for women that allowed them to inherit property gave them greater control over their person.
4) It actually set up a system to say that slavery is allowed but bad and that you should not enslave Muslims and there are certain ways you must treat your slaves. I know this was not always followed, however to have it codified is better than what the Christian Bible does …which is nothing. In fact in the Old Testament it does not condemn slavery but tells Hebrews how to enslave people and how to treat them. The closest it comes to condemn slavery would be to argue that you should love your neighbor as you love yourself (I’m assuming the average person would not love to be a slave)…but that is obviously vague.
5) It set up a system to provide for the poor, and this is one of the central pillars of Islam. Alms-giving (Zakat or something like that). This actually calls for relieving the hardship of others and eliminating inequality. Now it is obvious a lot of Muslims do not adhere to this either, however at least the religion promotes it. How many years did Mother Theresa live among the poor and India and do nothing to elevate them from poverty? She was concerned with saving souls not economic development, because the Christian bible does not teach this. Although some Christian groups do it as part of their interpretation of some obscure scripter, but Islam says it directly.
6) Islam unlike Christianity and other religions I have seen seems to be able to unite men. I am not saying there are no racist Muslims, look at Sudan …but what I am saying is if you go to a Mosque in New York it is typically not segregated by race, which is far different from Christian churches. One of Mohammed’s first followers was a black slave, and Mohammed also fled and sought refugee in Ethiopia, Muslim civilization seemed to be much more multiracial and cultural than Europe after the fall of Rome all the way till the 1900 Ras ----------------- Quote: I would like to add to my original lists.
7) Islam set up a codified way for dealing with people of other relgions. Although they often forced conversion on Hindus or other polytheist, they did not on Christians, Jews, or even Zorocastrians (most of the time). A look at the history of Egypt and Iran will show that their was no forced conversion. The populations slowly over time became Muslim due to intermarriage and voluntary conversion.
It is true that these members of other religions were treated as "second class citizens" but can anyone think of a thriving Muslim community in Europe before the 17th century allowed to live in peace? Jews definately suffered less under Muslim rule than in Christian Europe where they were constantly living in fear of purges and anti-Jewish riots and expulsions. Rasfarengi
----------------- Quote:I have still not seen anything positive and original brought by Islam. Let's see what has been posted so far:
"It united warring Arab tribes"
Non-religious.
"It freed Arabs from a lot of ridiculous tribal religions"
Not specific to Islam.
"It established strict and codified laws for women that allowed them to inherit property gave them greater control over their person."
Women could inherit property in Ancient Sparta and many other pre-existing societies. Hardly original to Islam.
"It actually set up a system to say that slavery is allowed but bad and that you should not enslave Muslims and there are certain ways you must treat your slaves."
Having a double standard for Muslims and non-Muslims is hardly a positive innovation. Judaism had such a double standard a long time before Islam.
"It set up a system to provide for the poor, and this is one of the central pillars of Islam."
Charity is central to the New Testament, in addition to having been a part of the Church from the beginning. Again, not an innovation. Making charity compulsory is hardly a positive innovation.
"Islam set up a codified way for dealing with people of other relgions."
The Romans had already set up a system of dealing with people of different religions.
>> but can anyone think of a thriving Muslim community in Europe before the 17th century allowed to live in peace?
What Muslim community every established itself peacefully on European soil before the 17th century? Dienekes
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:34:34 GMT -5
Boz429 Senior Moderator (8/27/07 2:29 am) Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not .... Its important to understand that Muslims believe in one God, the God of Abraham. Therefore Islam is in fact built upon foundations already laid out in Judaism and Christianity. Muslims believe that the Jews lost their way and that is why Isa a.s. was sent to them, they rejected him while Christians founded their religion based on worshipping Isa a.s. God then had to send another prophet, a final one, as one last chance for humanity. Therefore, while perhaps monotheism isn't "original" to Islam, its not original to Judaism or Christianity either. One exclusively Muslim belief though is that other Abrahamic religions should be respected as well, and that any person who believes in the one God, and lives his life piously, they will have a chance to go to heaven. We believe that every man will be judged by God. Muslims don't believe in original sin, therefore there is no need for salvation. I believe this is original to Islam. Ofcourse someone might find an obscure religion that existed prior and say it's not original. Kind of like in the above example someone said women rights to property and divorce were not original to Islam since the Spartans had it... If we're going to take that route then the same can be said about anything in Christianity. I also think that there is nothing evil that came with Islam, you will have to provide examples to clarify that. Saying that Muhammed s.a.v.s. commanded that all unbelievers are killed is not true. Here are some quotes from the Prophet s.a.v.s. that can perhaps clarify what sort of ideals he had. Quote: “The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr”
“The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman”
“Remember God in prosperity, and He will remember you in adversity”
"Every good act is charity. A man's true wealth hereafter is the good that he does in this world to his fellows." You would be hard pressed to find a contemporary ruler of Muhammed s.a.v.s. that shared these ideals. I really don't know what the purpose of this whole thread is other then to provoke Muslims. * s.a.v.s = salallahu alejh ve sellam [means peace be upon him. in english u will see P.B.U.H written. Muslims always use this and it is a must when mentioning the name of anyone of god's messengers wheather Abraham (PBUH), Isa/jesus (pbuh) or muhammed (pbuh)].
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:45:10 GMT -5
SarPlaninac1389 Senior Moderator (8/27/07 2:54 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Well, I think the nature of this topic is provocative, even when one does not intend to provoke.
For example, my opinion will sound like a provocation, but it really is not intended as such.
My feelings on Islam is that it perverted the message and intent of Judaism and Christianity.
I believe many Jews would argue that Christianity perverted Judaism. They are enttiled to that belief as I am to mine.
At it's core, the principle problem with Islam and the three points addressed by Aadmin is the opinion you take of Mohammed. If you can get buy some obvious facts, than you can get by the three points addressed by Aadmin.
However, I can't get by certain obvious realities regarding Islam. Mohammed was undoubtedly a pedophile and a philanderer. He was also extremely violent. The end result of all of these traits is that Islam is inherently backwards, violent and uncompromising.
IMO, Islam has turned the Arabs backwards not vice versa. It is my belief that Islam turned them (the Arabs) from the most progressive people into impoverished and intolerant people.
There is no way that Islam could have brought anything good and new into our society and culture because at its roots (Mohammed) it was bad. -------------- Boz429 Senior Moderator (8/27/07 3:13 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Your allegations are completely wrong, and to go as far as putting undoubtedly before them is just ignorant and irresponsible.
I would also like to point out that this thread shouldn't be used to break the #1 rule of discussion of the forums. The question is simple, you are either to provide originalities in Islam or refute them. This thread shouldn't be used as a launching pad for an attack on Islam of an Orthodox zealot and Islamophobe.
Aadmin already posted 7 examples of originality and no one has been able to debunk them. I offered another one in my first post.
And here's another thing original to what Muhammed s.a.v.s. brought to the world, and that is the first religious code of war. The Kuran in detail explains how a Muslim should conduct himself in a battle, how prisoners should be treated, how treaties should be respected, and for what purpose one can go to war to begin with.
Also there is another double standard in Aadmins original post. He says that an example of category (iii) is that Muhammed s.a.v.s. commanded to kill the unbelievers. Even though it is false, how is it original to Muhammed s.a.v.s. when the same commandment is issued to Jews in the Old Testament of the Bible? ---------- SarPlaninac1389 Senior Moderator (8/27/07 3:47 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Nothing of the seven is "original" or new.
Arabs were brought together under threat of the sword. Why did they even need to be together?
Mohammed murdered his enemies until they capitulated. Women around the 7th century were pretty much chattel across the globe. Islam did not bring equality or freedom to women, rather it led to their later increased subjugation to men.
While the rest of the world EVENTUALLY moved forward, Islam became the basis to keep Arab women, uneducated and subservient.
PS - My post was addressed to "Islam" not "Boz" so don't be childish with the name calling. ------------- chroabatos Membrum (8/27/07 3:48 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Islam was an attempt to bridge the differences and disputes between Judaism and Christianity. For example:
The Jews said that Jesus was not the Son of God but just a man and common criminal. Islam would take the middle road and say "I agree he was not the Son of God, but he was a great prophet".
The Jews expected their Messiah to be a great warrior who would bring about the kingdom of God. Thats what Mohammed pretended to be and why he spread his faith through war.
Islam would also pick and choose between Judaic kosher laws such as the eating of pork and Christian liberal views.
----------------- Boz429 Senior Moderator (8/27/07 4:27 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Quote:Arabs were brought together under threat of the sword. Why did they even need to be together?
Thats a ridiculous statement, Arabs weren't threatened into anything. Muhammed s.a.v.s. lived a long life without ever picking up a sword and he preached Islam peacefully until the Arabs from Mecca attacked him. Even then, Arabs from accross the pennisnula flocked to Muhammed s.a.v.s. not because they were threatened but because they believed.
Quote:Mohammed murdered his enemies until they capitulated. Women around the 7th century were pretty much chattel across the globe. Islam did not bring equality or freedom to women, rather it led to their later increased subjugation to men.
Again more unfounded and false accusations!! Muhammed s.a.v.s. did not murder his enemies! As a matter in fact when he finally returned to Mecca he smashed only the idols in the Kaba, he forbade his followers to take revenge on the Arabs from Mecca who he was waging war against for so long. Most of them once defeated chose to join him, others joined him long before they were defeated, even when they had the upper hand like Halid.
As far as the women rights goes, i already posted a response to this in another thread, where i showed exactly what Islam did do for women in the Arab world and you chose to ignore it. I'm not going to debate the same points over and over again. The subjugation of women is not an idea of Muhammed s.a.v.s. or Islam, it was present in that culture before Islam and now it is a result of people not following Islam.
Quote:PS - My post was addressed to "Islam" not "Boz" so don't be childish with the name calling.
Your post was most definitly ignorant and irresponsible.
And to claim that Islam was spread through war is pure fiction. -------------------- Captain Gradascevic Senior Moderator (8/27/07 4:32 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not .... 1) Muhammad saws did kill certain enemies, mostly traitors, when someone had to be killed it had a good reason
2)About Aisha, something I'll always continue to say as long as people will continue with the pedophile thing, it depends on which hadith you rely on. And I don't understand how certain people consider Muhammad saws a pedophile yet don't consider their god/gods half a pedophile/s because he/they couldn't find more than a 11-12 year old lil' girl to give the pain of a pregnancy. Couldn't he/they find at least a 14 y old girl?
3)If Islam brought the Arabs backward or not... lol... whatever...
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:50:15 GMT -5
SuartAmicus (8/27/07 7:45 pm) Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ...."lf a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness." - George Bernard Shaw"If ever a man had the right to say that he ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad. for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not tor the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."" - Rev. R. Bosworth-Smith"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." - Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. 122. "Four year after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race . . . Muhammed." - John William Draper, M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875, Vol. 1, pp 329-330. "In little more than a year he was actually the spiritual, nominal and temporal ruler of Medina, with his hands on the lever that was to shake the world." - John Austin, "Muhammad the Prophet of Allah," in T.P's and Cassel's Weekly for 24th September 1927. "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator. Warrior, Conqueror of ideas, Restorer of rational beliefs, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?" - Lamartine, Historic de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 2762727. "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived,. to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." - Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p.4 " Muhammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities." - Encyclopaedia Britannica"I have studied him ? the wonderful man ? and in my opinion he must be called the saviour of humanity." - George Bernard Shaw in "The Genuine Islam" "By a fortune absolutely unique in history , Muhammed is a threefold founder of a nation, of an empire, and of a religion." - Rev. R. Bosworth-Smith in " Muhammad and Mohammedanism 1946." Source: AJP Before his death in 632, the Prophet had established Islam as a social and political force and had unified most of Arabia. A few decades after his death, his successors had united all of Arabia, and conquered Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Armenia, and much of North Africa. By 750, Islam had emerged as the spiritual counterpart to the two great monotheistic belief systems, Judaism and Christianity.
Under the Ghaznavids, in the tenth century, Islam was spread to the mainly Hindu principalities east of the Indus by conquering armies in what is now northern India. Even later, Islam expanded into much of Africa and Southeast Asia. Islam is now the faith of well over a billion people all over the globe, and is the second largest religion of the present day.
Traits:
The Prophet was the most patient among men, the best judge, and one who pardoned most. His hands never touched any strange woman. He was the greatest charitable man. Whenever any excess money came to him and if he did not then get anyone to accept it as charity, he did not return home till he gave it to the poor and the needy.
He did not store up for more than a year the provision of his family members which Allah was pleased to give him. He used to take one fifth of what easily came to him out of dates and wheat. What remained in excess, he used to give in charity. He used to give away in charity to one who begged anything of him, even out of his stored up provision.
He used to repair his shoes, join his wives in their labours and cut meat with them. He was the most shy among men and could not stare at anyone for long. He accepted invitation of slaves and free men and presentation of even a cup of milk. He always refused to use the properties of Zakat. He used to speak the truth even though it was sometimes a cause of trouble to himself and his companions. He used to bind stones in his bell to appease his hunger and eat whatever he gets. He never returned any present.
He considered milk as sufficient if he did not get any other food. He used not to take food leaning against a pillow or upon a high table. Soles of his two feet served as his towel.
He used to accept invitations to attend wedding festivals, attend the sick and the diseased and attend the funerals. He was the most modest without pride and his tongue was most eloquent without prolongation of his speech.
His constitution was the most beautiful. No worldly duties could keep him busy. He used to put on whatever he got. His ring was made of silver and he used to put it on in the little finger of his right or left hand. He used to take his servant behind his back on any conveyance, whether it was horse or a camel. Sometimes he walked bare footed; sometimes he had no turban or cap on his head. He used to go even to a distant place to see sick, love scents and hate stench or bad smell, sit with the poor and the destitute, eat with them, honor those possessing honor, advise them to do good deeds and show kindness to their relatives. He was never harsh with anybody and accepted excuse offered to him. He used at times to cut jokes without falsehood and not burst into laughter.------------------ As for science,archicture, Maths,Biology,Astronomy etc you guys should not forget that it came to Europe from the moslems.Europe and whole the world owes too much to Islam.Even when you pray in church nowdays you pray and look and are surounded by islamic art. When the moslems used to write on paper, the christians use to do it on stones.Why all that fascinated culture,art and prosperity wasn't reached from the christians until the birth of Islam? Why the church prohibited the books that the moslems wrote and translated from the ancient greek civilization? Why the moslems discovered an impoverished Europe? All of what we got today is inspite of the science not inspite of the catholicism, we owe it to no other religion but Islam.
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:51:18 GMT -5
Kiara1982 Membrum (9/1/07 4:42 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
I have had the honour of reading the Sacred Book of Islam, the Holy Quran, and I would like to bear witness to its beauty, profundity of thought, depth of scientific approach and consistency in retransmission of the ancient human wisdom from them to us with lots and lots of love and good news.
The time will come, says the Holy Quran, that the hypocrite believers will repel many from seeking God. God will place a veil upon their eyes and He will seal their hearts and hearing. Yes, indeed, that time has come.
The warning that the Quran is held together by invisible threads and it will reveal itself only to the righteous in heart, repeats itself over and over again. Only the person who takes heed, only the person who possesses knowledge, only the person who possesses wisdom and the righteous in heart will be able to see my inner teaching, says the Holy Quran.
I do not like to sound arrogant, neither do I want to portray myself as a smart ass, but believe me, the Holy Quran decided to reveal itself to a Christian, which is to prove to you that being a Jew, a Muslim or a Christian is not a CONCEPT but a STATE OF BEING.
I do not wear a burqa or headscarf, I do not recite the Quran, I do not fall prostrate when I pray, I do not celebrate Ramadan, I have never done the Hajj pilgrimage or the Umrah, I do not know the position of the Qiblah, and yet I understand the Quran which keeps winking at me and says “Only Allah knows whom to choose, and girl, you will lead the blind, but you are not at liberty to make others equal with you, for you will make the immature fruit fall off the tree and that fruit will have no sweetness and will rot and for that I will hold you accountable.”
I hope you understand that I am not here to judge the rites and rituals of Islam, but to make you aware of the fact that the three faiths of Abraham have a particular set of rituals and rites which are designed with two goals in mind:
1. Rites and rituals establish tradition, tradition builds communities and congregations, the head of which is a mosque, a church and a synagogue, the community ensures the retransmission of the message from generation to generation and as such the message will never die. The message is way too important to be lost. So think of your mosque, or church or synagogue as the front line that keeps the well off from drying.
2. Rites and rituals are designed to carry the beautiful symbology of the inner teaching of the faith. If we understand the symbology, I assure you, we will be able to remove layer after layer after layer of our sacred books to arrive to the purest form of the teaching of the faith. And seeking, my friends, will lead us to a path of knowledge and wisdom that will ultimately guide us towards spiritual awakening or salvation and I promise you that is the resurrection professed only by the Jews, Christians and Muslims. And when we reach to that point we will cry “Alethia – I remember”. I did.
Understanding “monotheism” is the basic principle of the three Abrahamic faiths. Such an understanding will become a very important tool of clarity that will help you decode your scripture. The process of decoding your secret books will lead you to a spiritual maturity and believe me, when you reach to that point the Jew will become a tzzadik, the Muslim will become a mu’min, the Christian will become a saint and the Hindu will become a yogi. The tzzadik, the mu’min, the saint and the yogi transcend religion and will be one with GOD. That is Resurrection.
I believe in the God of Abraham because HE is a universal and mathematical expression of Singularity and Wholeness or as ONE GOD manifested through MANY or ALL-THERE-IS. The noun Elohim as third person singular + third person plural feminine + third person plural masculine (as wholeness) is always followed by the verb IS which is the third person singular of “to be” (as singularity). In other words there is ONE pervading breath that manifests through and animates all-there-is. GOD, thus, is plural in content and singular in form. While that breath animates everything, it is dormant and latent in a rock; it is sentient in an animal and it is conscious in a human being. If everything lives and breathes in God and is a manifestation of “his” breath, what is HIS true shape and form? What is the shape, form, colour and smell of infinite intelligence, of beauty, of love, of spirit or of consciousness for that matter? You will never know until it manifests itself. A pearl is beautiful and so is a building, a butterfly, a personality or a man. Would that mean that man is GOD? Hold on! Not so quickly! It takes hundreds of years for a grain of sand impregnating an oyster to evolve into a beautiful, precious pearl hidden inside a shell. The pearl is the enlightenment of a shell as the diamond is the enlightenment of a stone, as the gold is the enlightenment of a metal, as the flower is the enlightenment of a flower as the divine consciousness is the enlightenment of a man. Evolution, the unfolding of our mental, intellectual and creative potentialities, knowledge, the refinement of our emotions, experience and above all expression of unconditional love for the ONENESS is the way we have to pursue to turn from just-conscious beings into self-conscious beings into spiritually-conscious beings and finally into divinely –conscious beings.
The three angels meeting in the tent of Abraham are:Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Judaism follows the path of knowledge. Islam follows the path of the heart and wisdom. Christianity marries wisdom with knowledge, the mother principle (wisdom and heart and nurture) with the father principle (knowledge and consciousness) to give life to the SON, which is the superconscious.
Jihad and Armageddon and the war of Gog and Magog or Aad and Thamud is nothing more or less than killing the compassion for your ego (located in the left side of your brain) and killing hate, anger and fear (located in the right side of the brain).
Peace and regards, Kiara
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 27, 2007 22:57:39 GMT -5
Anittas ROA Mod (9/1/07 9:42 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
I think Islam was kinder to animals and preached that animals should be killed only for meat consumption or for clothing, if the elements of nature required so; whereas Christianity gave no such indications and handled no instructions on how the animals should be treated. ------------ desire yearning Senior Moderatress (9/2/07 11:15 am)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Why should Muhammed have to bring something to the world?
Muhammed is a messenger. If u want to know what he brought to the world, its very simple: ALLAHS WORDS.
Pick up a copy of the Kuran open and read.
Why is this even a subject here. The answer is so simple. -------------- Anittas ROA Mod (9/2/07 1:25 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
Quote:If u want to know what he brought to the world, its very simple:ALLAHS WORDS.
But that's the very question of this thread: what was new in that? --------------- desire yearning Senior Moderatress (9/2/07 2:30 pm)
Re: So, what did Muhammed bring that was not ....
There isnt a general message.
Every individual gets there own message.
Thats how the Kuran is. It isnt so basic to be explained in a few posts.
|
|