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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 28, 2007 19:31:25 GMT -5
reposting -------- Novi PazarCommanding Moderator (8/15/07 1:24 pm) New Post: Your opinions about Euthanasia? UK experts call for debate on euthanasia for seriously disabled newborns Child Health News Published: Monday, 6-Nov-2006 Print - UK experts call for debate on euthanasia for seriously disabled newborns Printer Friendly Email - UK experts call for debate on euthanasia for seriously disabled newborns The prestigious Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecology in Britain has suggested that there needs to be open debate about the extent that doctors should go to when it comes to ensuring the survival of seriously disabled babies. The College in a report is asking doctors to consider euthanizing disabled and sick newborns and says the suggestion has arisen as a result of the rising number of newborns who are able to survive because of medical advances. The college says the birth of such children often devastates families who suffer both emotional and financial hardships. The College says the severely disabled babies who until recently would not have survived, are now able to do so because of medical advances and euthanasia should be considered in some cases. Support for the proposal has apparently come from both parents of severely disabled babies, medical ethicists and geneticists but concern has been expressed by others that the suggestion smacks of social engineering. The report says that if obstetricians were allowed to carry out active euthanasia, some patients would be more inclined to wait till birth, rather than carrying out late abortions. In the report submitted to the Nuffield Council on Bioethics, the College is calling for a working party to consider non-resuscitation and the withdrawal of treatment to be an option in some cases along with active euthanasia. The euthanasia of newborns, regardless of how sick and disabled they are, is illegal in the United Kingdom and the college confirms it is at this stage merely asking for a debate on the matter. However it is known that doctors in the UK do privately admit that mercy killings of newborns does take place. The euthanasia of newborns is allowed in the Netherlands for a range of incurable conditions cases such as severe spina bifida and the skin condition epidermolysis bullosa. The suggestion is part of an answer to ethical questions concerning prolonging life in newborn babies. www.news-medical.net/?id=20876I come across this article the other day and l thought about posting it here and to find out about perceptions people might have about this on going issue of Euthanasia.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 28, 2007 19:41:25 GMT -5
SarPlaninac1389 Senior Moderator (8/15/07 1:27 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Difficult question, impossible to police and I believe lends itself to too much "God playing". Let nature take it's course, I say. ------- No extraordinary means should be taken to keep anyone alive, but putting the down, like animals is not the answer either.
Nowadays, technology is such that you would be aware of such "major" birth defects at 20 weeks of pregnancy and probably even at 11 weeks (Nuchal Fold Ultrasound).
The reality is if you are going to put a baby to death, isn't it better to just have an abortion?
I know this obviously brings up the entire abortion debate, but no matter how repugnant abortion might be viewed, it is much more palatable then euthanizing a severely handicapped newborn.
My sense is that this is really a non-issue (or at least should be a non-issue) because most people who would euthanize would probably just abort instead.
---------- Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator (8/15/07 1:31 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
I'm pretty much on the fence with this one as l fully understand both opposing sides to the issue.
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with
"The reality is if you are going to put a baby to death, isn't it better to just have an abortion?"
Good points you bring above and l completely agree, but doesn't it annoy you that the right to life people say abortion is cruel and inhumane, then what should we do?
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with
------------- Fender666 Commanding Moderator (8/15/07 1:49 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Sar Euthanasia? I always thought that was another word for legal suicide. A newborn isn't capable of euthanasing itself, so what are we really calling it, mercy killing?
" Exactly, but how about a terminally ill person who wants to die....do you think he/she has a right?"
Only in that circumstance and also if quality of life is dramatically falling.Phsc evaluations need to be performed first.
kasandri: " There are many seriously disabled people who have a very good quality of life which is much better than many people with well-functional brain and body. They are happy only because they are experiencing life, so why take that away from them?"
^^You've missed the point entirely. Nobody is talking about the people you mentioned. --------------
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 28, 2007 19:50:21 GMT -5
SarPlaninac1389 Senior Moderator (8/15/07 2:08 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Quote:Exactly, but how about a terminally ill person who wants to die....do you think he/she has a right?
Probably, but that is not the primary question. I think the question we should answer first is "how can we properly police who really wants to die"?
What if someone creates a living will that says something like "if I get to point "x" then I want to be euthanized". Then that person loses the ability to speak, but internally decides the life they are living is not so bad and now does not want to die.
If the person can't communicate (written or verbal) how could they convey this to us and if we euthanize them, isn't it murder?
I read a great article about America's most well known advocate of euthanasia (Jack Kevorkian). The article was written (brilliantly by sports writer and novelist Mitch Albom) and he has a take on the person doing the "putting down". Kind of made me think we would leave ourselves ripe for abuse.
Check out the article here
--------- Fender666 Commanding Moderator (8/15/07 2:20 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
" I read a great article about America's most well known advocate of euthanasia (Jack Kevorkian). The article was written (brilliantly by sports writer and novelist Mitch Albom) and he has a take on the person doing the "putting down". Kind of made me think we would leave ourselves ripe for abuse."
Good question Sar. Good article to, which is why I suggested a thorough councelling and assessments from 3 shrinks involving all of the family to ensure that everyone is on the same page.
Some form of checks and balances need to be set up to ensure compliance/policing of strict guidelines. ----------- Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator (8/15/07 2:20 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
"If the person can't communicate (written or verbal) how could they convey this to us and if we euthanize them, isn't it murder?"
Excellant point, l had in mind before that how can we determine if a vegetable (sorry if l may offend someone) wants to live or die?
Your link, l found this passage funny:
Are you at all religious? I asked him.
"Religion is all bunk. . . . If you're really religious, you can't think for yourself."
Would you call yourself an atheist?
"Agnostic."
;D ----------- SarPlaninac1389 Senior Moderator (8/15/07 2:25 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
What struck me about the article is how can a person who is purportedly doing something so "compassionate", lack any compassion?
To me, it is a classic case of the God complex. -------- Fender666 Commanding Moderator (8/15/07 2:40 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia? l
"To me, it is a classic case of the God complex. "
You nailed that one.
Like Novi said, I liked his "Religion is all bunk. . . . If you're really religious, you can't think for yourself."
Couldn't have put it better myself -------------
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 28, 2007 20:02:30 GMT -5
AAdmin Forum Emperor!(Balkan Papa) (8/16/07 6:38 am)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
I also believe that that euthanasia should be allowed in case of terminally ill patients if they desire it. If they are adults of a fluid mind(=fact) and fully aware(=fact) and if they deem that such outcome is most desirable to them so be it. No one has the right to keep them from suffering (=fact) further out of some dogma (=fiction) that such individual might or might not be following.
------------- kasandri (8/16/07 6:43 am)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Like Epidermolysis bullosa?
mental illness hurts more than physical illness
Some percentage of the world's population would become "extinct" if you start providing euthanasia for sick people who have serious illness like epidermolysis bullosa.
Jack Kevorkian (Doctor Death) have assisted at least 130 terminal patients to die.
---------- vinyakCommanding Moderator (8/16/07 9:00 am)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Life is precious but there is a point where it becomes a nightmare, someone who has terminal cancer and is in Uncontrolable pain, that person should have the right to ask for a more dignified death and for there suffering to be ended i believe it should be legal for those cases.
As far as deformed etc babies are concerned I truly don't know, on the one hand you have the consequences of the life this child would lead, Life as we have come to accept and understand. On the other hand the very same child knows no difference and (I am guessing) what seems abnormal to us would be normal to someone born with abnormality..I am referring to severe abnormality here, there would be one exception though and that would be if the child was in Pain and clearly suffering from Pain, then i guess I would make the decision (god forbid that i would ever be in that situation) --------- SarPlaninac1389 Senior Moderator (8/16/07 1:16 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
I think what I am in favor of is what I have drafted for my family and that is a "no extraordinary measures" health care proxy.
If they should ever become ill and unable to make decisions for themselves, the doctors are instructed not to take any extraordinary measures (like a feeding tube, artificial respiration etc...) to keep them alive.
For me, it is a good balance between the natural and the humane.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 28, 2007 20:08:34 GMT -5
Dsurazal Commanding Moderator (8/18/07 6:19 am)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Being involved with medical profession myself I must say when people are seriously ill they are usually put on morphine drips which in higher and longer dosages causes respiratory depression which is a form of speeding up the death process; in a round about way euthenasia. So even though people would like immediate results and assistance with it, it is being done in the hospitals but regarded as pain control. People get so frantic about the issue because it crosses lines of morality and ethics. Personally I have seen people suffering and it isn't a good way to go, I say let people die with dignity if they so choose to.
kasandri: "But that's immoral?"
To some degrees yes. I mean usually these people are in such pain form the death process that they are highly medicated which sedates them and eliviates there pain but also makes them out of it, so to speak. So at this point you have to think, this person is dying, they are sedated (coma like state) and have no interaction with anyone or anything. Why? Usually family/patients sign DNR's (Do Not Resesitate) forms so that when they finally code nothing is done. There is also the other side of the spectrum in regards to the family pulling the plug on ventillators. Many times I have witnessed a family going through the process of deciding the time is right for there loved one to be taken off the vent, they say there final farewells and leave the hosptal while there family members pass away. It is unpleasant and of course. I personally don't think death ever seems pleasant or natural but seeing someone on the flip of the coin, not allowed pain medication, groaning for hours on end suffering seems even far more un-natural. So pick your lesser of two evils but it's easy to say one thing without having personally experienced it.
kasandri " By legalizing euthanasia for terminally ill patients wouldn't that be morally unfair to permanently mentally ill patients who should have the same right?"
I didn't really discuss mentally ill patients but I have experience there as well. I must add that there is a lot available to these people, many medications can help a lot of these people live meaningful lives. There is a big difference between a terminally ill patients and a person who is mentally ill. I have personally witnessed a ECT (Electroconvulsive therapy) and witnessed drastic changes to there psyche and demeanor. Can you please extend on why you think a mentally ill person would require euthanasia?
kasandri " Dsurazal, Example of an individual case: A child when she was one year young had a high temperature and suffered Brain-Melting, today 20 years old she has a mental illness linked to this tragic accident. She can be aggressive, is depressive and have temporary hallucinations but do not suffer from physical pain. Her mother take care of her. If she wants to die but against the will of her mother, should she have that right?"
Red Brigade10 " I agree under certain prerequisites. For example you must be conscious of what you ask, meaning that you can only do it in case that you don't suffer by any sort of psychological problems."
I think first off you have to ask yourself, if this person is psychologically disturbed, can s/he make this decision with a clear headed decision? Probably not. Modern medicine is creating new remedies all the time. Personally, I feel unless you are terminal and are not going to be able to recuperate and live a normal quality of life than why would you want to end your life? Depression and hallucinations can be dealt with by various methods. I think having the mentality to see that your life will only deteriorate and make a conscious decision versus having a mental illness that is treatable in some regards are two totally different scenarios. I just can't see a mental illness creating a justifiable excuse for euthanasia. But I could be wrong, I really think psychiatric work is still a relatively foreign territory for the medical field as the brain is still complexing, and a lot of it's processes are unknown.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 28, 2007 20:10:40 GMT -5
Contele de Monte Cristo Moderator (8/27/07 7:36 pm)
Re: Your opinions about Euthanasia?
Euthanasia has been advertised in a number a romantic views - Euthanasia as the right to die. Euthanasia as aid in dying. Euthanasia as mercy, not murder.
Let us see this issue in its simplest form – as murder, not mercy. The taboo which once surrounded euthanasia, effectively prohibiting its practice, no longer exists in the progressive society of today. The generation of today are embracing something their forefathers loathed and would quite rightly stand against. Murder.
Murder, is the cold-blooded termination of another’s life. Murder is still considered to be one of the most abhorrent offenses in the world. In some societies, the death penalty is the only sanction deemed fit for the occurrence of such an unforgivable crime. Conversely, in others, life is considered to be an inalienable right of every human being. Life cannot be taken away by the state, other individuals and in a time not so long ago, yourself.
Suicide, here in the United Kingdom, was treated as a crime. There were strong beliefs within society, derived from religion, that intentionally taking your own life was morally wrong. This view was reflected by the law. However, this “crime” was later decriminalized, subsequent to recognition within society, that survivors of suicide attempts needed help not punishment. There was a common acceptance of the idea that those who were suicidal needed to be shown that life was worthwhile and that they themselves were worthy of living.
Euthanasia is distinguished from murder, by many who agree with the practice, with concepts of rights, mercy and dignity. Euthanasia is defined as the intentional practice of ending an individual’s life, by act or omission, where the predominant aim is to benefit that individual in some way. Euthanasia can be; voluntary, where the victim/individual expressly requests the right to die or non-voluntary, where the individual is unable to request aid in dying. In the latter circumstance the individuals may be unconscious (i.e. in a coma), or unable to communicate for example where the individuals are in a state of paralysis hindering communication or are small children, as were the Siamese twins Mary and Jodie. Non-voluntary euthanasia may also occur were the individual is said to be mentally unable to construct a meaningless decision between life and death.
At first glance euthanasia sounds ethically and morally acceptable-but is it?
Hidden beneath the fancy language lies the reality of murder. Concealed behind the notion of rights are lethal injections. Masked behind the belief of mercy is the withdrawal of medical aid. Disguised behind the principle of dignity is the elimination of the burden on society.
Legalization of voluntary euthanasia will result in what is commonly referred to as the ‘slippery slope’ effect. Some of those in favour of the legalisation of voluntary euthanasia with the appropriate safeguards oppose the idea of non-voluntary euthanasia being permitted. Yet, if voluntary euthanasia is legalized others in favor of non-voluntary euthanasia would argue that non-voluntary euthanasia should also be permissible. After all if one form is allowed than why not the other? Why should patients who cannot expressly request euthanasia be discriminated against? Why should their right to end their life be taken away because they cannot communicate as opposed to their fellow human beings who can ask for death?
Dignity is one of the most reiterated arguments trying to validate the proposal of euthanasia. We have been told a civilized society should allow people to die with dignity and without pain – and with this statement I wholly agree.
Dignity is the value or worth which a human being has by simply existing not taking into account the actions or class of that individual.
This civilized concept has been mirrored in the abolition of death penalties; the life of a murderer is no less worthy than that of an innocent civilian.
Euthanasia is typically thought of as ‘mercy killing’, as aiding a terminally ill patient to die, to avoid the harsher symptoms of an incurable disease, intolerable pain and suffering and to evade the loss of dignity; the loss of self-worth.
However, I don’t believe a civilized society should help to effectively kill others who cannot take their own lives. Hospices and homes, catering specifically for those with terminal conditions, have been established with the sole aim to enable the suffering to die without the loss of dignity, without the loss of worth and without pain.
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