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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 1:49:29 GMT -5
reposting --------
apollon GRE (12/24/05 12:12 am)
New Post: Philosophy question: Are we born free or slaves?
This forum has members that one hand can be ruthless or bad mannered (or simply "balkanian") but on the other hand, at times deep thinking, and non-comfortists.
So I 'd like to ask simply, do you think we are born free? As the "media" proclaim, and we take it for granted as our birth right?
Except of a Yes or No, can you express your thoughts and arguments? Is there a certain answer? Or are there other questions we have to answer first, or axioms to accept? Does it depend on what axiom to choose? Can someone give me a proof for the one or the other?
If the answer is not so simple why do we go about our lives so convinced that the answer is Yes?
So, maybe not directly in the spirit of Christmas, but indirectly, since this question unites all people in the Balkans, do you mind posting your thoughts?
ps. I 'm sorry I haven't visited the forum for so long. I just a have short break and I 'll try to visit over the holidays.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 1:52:06 GMT -5
AAdmin (12/24/05 1:22 am) This forum has members that one hand can be ruthless or bad mannered (or simply "balkanian") but on the other hand, at times deep thinking, and non-comfortists. I am pretty sure that genetics play by far the most dominant role in human behavior patterns (and in just about everything related to human body). When people are acting balkanoid at times they are acting emotional thus I believe they are reacting in the 'primordial' mode (that appears outside their control at the moment which must mean they are driven by an invisible force, genetics). When they are being intellectual is when they can relax fully and spend enough time and interest in analyzing a given topic. I also beleive that the intellectual level one processes is also of genetic quality (in short we are a genetic copy of the previous generations born and nurtured in a given era and under a given environment which, with the distance of previous generations, gives us an illusion of being unique) while of course it can be fully nurtured if properly stimulated. So I 'd like to ask simply, do you think we are born free? As the "media" proclaim, and we take it for granted as our birth right? I believe that we are gene-driven and that the free choice is just an illusion. We are simply put pre-programmed to act in certain ways. Also, the choices we make are not made from the actual full blown choice list but from the reduced number of choices that are provided to us by outside forces that we have no or practically no control over. " If the answer is not so simple why do we go about our lives so convinced that the answer is Yes?" Because the media, powers to be and our fragile ego prefer the yes answer since an illusion of freedom is more pleasing then the reality of invisible delicate and ultra-complex genetic 'slavery' that we are all subject to (whether aware or not). The matrix movie comes to mind but from a different (inner rather then outer) angle. ps. I 'm sorry I haven't visited the forum for so long. I just a have short break and I 'll try to visit over the holidays. Hope to see you here at least from time to time and have nice and happy holidays.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 1:53:11 GMT -5
apollon GRE (12/24/05 1:35 am) AADmin, congratulations for keeping this "balkan lounge" together Thanks for the reply! You took a good stub at the question! Great! I have no doubt that a lot of people in the balkans have something radical to say about this topic. For me there are a lot of aspects and angles of this question in my mind and I'll try to put them down as more opinions unfold (if i can reserve this right of course). I want/wish to think we are born free but I have grown some serious doubts. At least at the level of economical debt that we inherit... and it gets more wild if you let your imagination or ... suspicions grow. The genetic part theory that AAdmins refer to, I think, it's not a new one and have some open followers, many more secret ones. I hesitate to credit much to it, but I admit, leaving an open window to it. I tend to look at the world and people as a spiritual "matter", rather a material one, and the question at that level supersedes the one at the genetic. I decided to share this question, not from a "teacher" point of view but rather a "student's" one. I am afraid there is no clear answer, and our instinct are subtly drawn to dogmas or paranoias. But let's relax, and take the freedom to challenge any answer!
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 1:55:20 GMT -5
AAdmin (12/24/05 1:48 am) I tend to look at the world and people as a spiritual "matter" As far as spiritual part goes I an willing to go as far as any agnostic and state that outside of my belief there is something outside our reality/perception/dimension that might drive our 'reality' (directly or more likely indirectly, sort of like Aristotle's 'Unmoved Mover(s)) that I have no clue (and I fail to see how would I) of what that something is or how it is. This might even expand your original question and raise doubts on our free choice by introducing possibility of existence of destiny (as predetermined time event) but I am afraid that I can not effectively argue on this subject either for I have no logical grounds to do so or to rely upon. In additional, perhaps it is our limited human logic (meaning our limited intellectual capabilities as human beings) that prevents us from knowing further. Will we ever know, well that is a question in itself.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 1:56:56 GMT -5
Xpo FERENS (12/24/05 5:18 am)
A Slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts. -Euripides
Our ability to think is what separates us from the animals. We born in contemporary Western societies are born free, but the vast majority of people have been conditioned into a state of slavery.
To be free is to exercise your true nature as a rational and reasoning being (by means of virtue), which requires freedom from the slavery to vice. Reason, the logos, is nature steering all things from within. Men, being endowed with logos, are in theory capable of understanding the nature of the world. By appealing to our animal and more base nature, our psychis are enslaved.
AAdmin, so by nature, we are slaves to freedom (at least those of us that follow our intellectual continuation from the Greek thinkers). I suppose we are slaves to the very genes that allow us to speculate. Though that should be argued from an evolutionary perspective rather than from a Platonic.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 1:59:15 GMT -5
apollon GRE (12/24/05 5:41 am)
I can't say that there is a position to argue with fervor as it would fit a political discussion. I think we are all in this, whether strongly opinionated or not.
There are two areas that we can try to draw "freedom". The one is on free will, which I believe is a tougher one, and harder to grasp, while the second, which I was mostly referring to, is to simply answer, whether we feel like it or not, if we are not born free.
I think we tend to think that we are free. Before we are conditioned (or even better if not conditioned at all, aka "illurians" ), we feel that we should pursue our urges not only with little self-restraining but also defying outside restrains. Before we even get to what is "free will" and is it really ours, our world is limited.
For example, where I live, when I drive around and I see some black moms with their little kids I look at them and I feel sorry because you know that kid, unless extraordinary circumstances, is limited. Its future is pretty much known. Do some dirty job for little money. Yet, while a kid he lives as if he can be or have everything. Then again, the "whites" maybe better but don't they have their limits too?
How different are we really from the Roman Empire? Isn't that the most talented of us try to work hard as slaves so one day that can buy our freedom? Why buy our freedom, and only the talented ones, if - as some say - we are born free. Why do I work as a slave to - maybe become free - if I was free already?
And wasn't it each era at its time people to think that their lives are normal? Even the really slaves growing to accept that their slavery is normal? So yes, in this case, we can't accept that we are not born free because we set the stage for a society to exploit people.
And how about when you look at freedom in successive times rather in parallel? For example, you are born and you learn that the normal way to drink water is to buy it in a bottle and to swim in a river it's a crazy act. So your freedom to do so was actually deprived when you were born. We inherit, every generation, a bug chunk of freedom lost - at least in that respect.
One may say that we are not slaves neither free, just limited with different degrees of limitations. As a kid is free to play around the house but not at the street. While it grows up it can go around the neighborhood but to another city, and so on ...
So we are free, inside a circle. A circle who is greatly defined at our birth, and we can expand with hard work. Doesn't this tell us something already?
Here we can possibly fit some genetic manipulation that AAdmin mentioned. But by whom? By another human or another intelligence?
And if a freedom has a time component then how could someone deserves his starting point? How else if his actions in the past to bring him to the current situation. And there is where the spiritual part gets also involved...
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:03:19 GMT -5
Xpo FERENS(12/24/05 6:02 am) Thats a rather demented interpretation of freedom. Rather you superbly demonstrate what the masses think freedom is. You portray it from a socio-economic view, in other words, he who dies with the most toys wins. Also, man is limited. He cannot fly into outer space and have a beer with a martian. Man has basic functions, mainly to engage in the exchange of good with others. The good man is the happy man. ---------- apollon GRE (12/24/05 7:38 am) I 'm not trying to limit the discussion to the socio-economic aspect but rather help it start with something that is easier to relate to. What we call common sense is based on subtle principles / axioms that we silently have agreed on. Maybe challenge the axioms is not going to take us anywhere, but becoming aware of what we actually accept prior to form an opinion-belief-faith-conviction, i think, it is very important. Yes, a man is limited (so I guess we don't adhere to the "you can do magic, you can do anything that you desire" ). But what we really accept and how we word can have huge consequences on society. If we don't know exactly how to define our birth-right freedom then we are not able to defend it and even claim it. -------- Xpo FERENS(12/24/05 10:29 pm) You are correct, the unexamined life is not worth living. Sharper minds have already dealt with these problems. Perhaps we should put together a suggested readings list? Plato followed by Aristotle should do it. But for those who should need to warm up their minds a bit and get familiar with the basic concepts should start with the pre-Socratics. --------- leandros nikon (12/24/05 11:00 pm) what about the political situation? ...and how it influences our freedom,by restraining or encouraging it... i don't think that a communist or a capitalist regime encourages freedom of mind... although they use different methods to repress our freedom,both types of governing r very effective in doing so... the first kind of regime does it in a raw way and the second treacherously,through brainwashing etc... so,in which political situation r we born into? also,which is the background of our family,the educational level of our parents... so,should we consider the specific political and social circumstances? how free am i if i am born in lets say france and how free if i am born a woman in taliban's afghanistan? genes as an explanation r fine, but not enough... anyway,were born babies,and that's for sure... the way of the peaceful warrior:paradox, humor and change...
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:08:29 GMT -5
Meltdown711(12/24/05 11:17 pm) No we are certainly not. Im 18 years old and for the last 18 years I have been a slave to a being I became more powerful then over 5 years ago. For a while I will have the a quasi or pseudo feeling of freedom due to the fact that I will live alone in an apartment. Then afterwards I will once again become a slave to another female, yet again weaker then me.... Us? Free? Yea... Free to die. Even then I end up feeling sorry over the fact that people I am close to will weep. ;D The only free person to have ever been was Diogenes. ----- Kastorianos(12/24/05 11:28 pm) what about the political situation? A very interesting, but simultaneously complicated topic. It has btw a very philosophical character. As I remember Nietzsche dealt with this topic..."human, slave of his drives?" etc... Personally convinced of the humans self-determination ability to some proper degree....I think of our brain....mind....to be very strong...and able to individual, also independend thoughts....but, and I agree here with AAdmin, genetics play a very important role, too...and...they (I think genetics will be here something like drives) determine us, too... --------- Kubrat(12/24/05 11:34 pm) we are born slaves, but are told that we are born free. hence, the cycle of life, always fighting and struggling to be self-sufficient and self-ruling. --------- Kastorianos(12/24/05 11:39 pm) Freedom should never be confused with..... defiance... So acting in defiance to everybody and everything (society, state, order) doesn't mean being free...freedom means to me to can do everything which could make me eudaimon....happy......and if it means to be a part of the society...and to act according to it...cest bon.....just imagine if you were happy (free) when you would live always "against the order"... That doesn't mean of course that we shall be always obidient to everything...just because its the state...or society...so sth stronger, more powerful...human should never stop to think critical, I always do. And mankind has showed...that it can be free, think free, to reflect...a good example is the french revolution of 1789 imo...
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:23:40 GMT -5
leandros nikon (12/24/05 11:39 pm) listen about diogenes the cynical,from the pontian city of Sinope...... i had read a book about him written by diogenes laertius... 1.in ancient greek he was "diogenis the kion(the dog)" and not kinikos=cynical... when he was asked why does he call himself a dog,he answered:"bcz when im happy,i shake my tail,when im ungry i bark and when i meet cunning people,i bite them..." 2.he was accused for masturbation at the market/agora and he answered "i wish my hunger could leave too with a simple massage" 3.he was accused by someone for an economic scandal which happened when he was young and he said:"yes,but i was peeing much quicker then" also about the same he said to another:"i was much better than ure today and ull never become as good as i am now.." 4.some day he was walking near a place when people were eating meat...they threw at him some bones,bcz u remember,he was a dog...after he avoided the bones from hitting him,he reached the table and he watered them with his urine,just like a dog would mark his territory... anyway,diogenes had fanatic friends and enemies...his mouth was sharp as a blade... -------- Kubrat(12/24/05 11:48 pm) this guy is hilarious...a true wise man -------- Meltdown711(12/24/05 11:56 pm) Quote:That doesnt mean of course that we shall be always obidient to everything...just because its the state...or society...so sth stronger, more powerful...human should never stop to think critical, I always do. A peasant can think critically, we all can. How can freedom be the ability to simply think? Freedom confined to such ideas is itself enslavement. Being able to act is just as important, if not more. However, in human history we have never really had much of a chance t break the mold. We are always tied, in some way or another, to the masses. Conformity is something we are all part of. Thats why i say good ol' Dio was free. Anyway, there are too many views of what "freedom" is to be a good topic to discuss, IMO. Its too broad of a word. -------- Kastorianos(12/25/05 12:11 am) Quote:How can freedom be the ability to simply think? Freedom confined to such ideas is itself enslavement. Being able to act is just as important, if not more. Yes of course it is....thats also why I said the french revolution is a good example...since it was an action....not just critical thought. Quote:However, in human history we have never really had much of a chance t break the mold. Why is that important to you? To me this sounds rather like anarchy...than a proof for freedom. Why destroying sth just to see how it is...just to test sth...to see where the limits are and how far we can go. For what?! Are we doing so bad? Thats what I can never understand.. Im in this field much more the pragmatist than the idealist. And I dont think so because I like the easy way...but because I think that human is a very social creature...you cannot live alone...the mass holds always advantages for the individual... I think we have to do the splits....on the one hand to remain clearly individually...and (let the genes out) self-determined.....always ready to act...but on the other had...to be realistic...and especially sane.. ------- Dijedon(12/25/05 11:22 am) There are, in my opinion, two answers to this question. Yes and No. It all comes down to the individual's perception of what freedom is. As is evident by this topic alone, perceptions and views of what authentic freedom is, vary. One definition might be very simplistic, such as slave versus non-slave. Within the frames of such a definition, obviously, most people are free, since slavery isn't legal in any state. But then there are, as seen above, different, more complex and delicate perceptions of what freedom is. If we see ultimate freedom as the only sort of freedom, then we're all more or less different types of slaves. We have to work, we have to abide laws and listen to authorities/wife/husband/bos - we simply have to adapt us to the surrounding, to the environment, and that might be viewed as a version of slavery. On the other hand, the reverse social makeup of the above system, i.e. total anarchy, would still not equate to total liberty, because then we would be slaves under new, unwritten laws, being continuously slaves to fear and rules of engagement, driven by fear of death etc. In conclusion, as I view it, everyone has his/her own perception of what freedom is. The more simplistic it is, the more people are free. The more complex, the less people are free within the frame s of your version of authentic freedom. So there's no evident yes or no, just a long row of diverse interpretations ... with some seeing everything from a genetical angle whereas others ee it as social. ------- Xpo FERENS(12/25/05 10:43 pm) I've come across something relevant by the distinguished geneticist F.A.E. Crew. What can we draw from this into our discussion? F.A.E. Crew, Organic Inheritance in Man (Edinburgh, UK: Oliver and Boyd, 1927), pp. 137, 177. : Quote:The modern civilized peoples come of an ancestry that has been passed repeatedly through the fine meshes of the sieve of civilization, those individuals and those stocks whose mental abilities fitted them for the discipline of civilization passed through; those which have refused to accommodate themselves to the demands of changing social orders have been rejected and eliminated. The destiny of a race is determined by its genetic composition. . . . Race-preservation, not self-preservation, has been the first law of nature and, among all organisms, the race is of paramount importance, its perpetuation and welfare being cared for by the strongest instincts. In many species reproduction means the death of the individual. Even among the higher organisms, the strongest of all the instincts are those connected with reproduction, but in the human, intellect and freedom interfere with instinct; the reproductive instinct is not only controlled by reason, as it should be, but is commonly thwarted and perverted. If the demand for individual freedom blinds men to their racial obligations, then the decadence and extinction of their lines must inevitably follow. The best use a man can make of his freedom is to place limitations upon it. ------------ iapetus72(12/26/05 12:26 am) I think much has to do with todays abundant "information"... or one could say "mis information" There is a lot of falsification or intellectual corruptness. There is not enough political and intellectual integrity. It seems many corners of life is distorted to suit a political agenda, from my stand point this distortion and mass media mind control is a Judaic construct. I think democracy is an oxymoron by virtue and enslaves people automatically. Democracy is run by politicians and not "leaders"; policies of political parties only care to capture 51% of the vote therefore leaving the 49% who vote against the 51% as enslaved or "locked out". It has the makings as we see today in teh USA, France and Germany to turn into chaos, bloodshed and mayhem. I also think people are not artistically expressive enough and not enough imagination. It almost seems like the mind of the west has been imprisoned due to dogmatism of a various of issues. We should have been migrating to other planets by now and be in touch with the rest of the cosmos. But alas, it seems we as a human race are just going backwards. We can't even get the definition of politician and leader correct. The politician does not care for 50% of the people, the leader cares for 100% of the people. So in conclusion, the world is lacking quality leaders.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:29:06 GMT -5
Makedonas30 (12/26/05 1:12 am)
All humans are born within a shell, a limited body trapping an also limited brain.
We like to believe that our mind knows no limits but unfortunately that is not true, our imagination has no limits, true, but our brain certainly does. Every day that passes kills it a little bit, our physical world wears us down trying to subdue our existence and finally kill it. It tries to reclaim the valuable components that make us up and absorb them back, well to make more life later on, to keep the circle alive.
so yes we are born slaves, slaves to prejudice, illness, old age, death, time, God, man, false pretensions of liberty and democracy, truth lost its meaning the moment man developed language. We are slaves to our feelings and inadequacies. We need love, we need companionship, we need sex, we need approval, we need popularity we need to be accepted, we need everything that lies beyond what we just conquered! It is in our nature to need, that is why we so easily seek pot and coke, and lsd and drugs in general, we like to smoke and drink, we are junkies and we have always been. But above all we like power, of any kind. we like and need control.
Are we slaves?.. yes we are......will we be free?... a flower was made to root and seed not fly... a flower will never fly... man will never be free.
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AAdmin (12/26/05 9:59 pm)
Many interesting perceptions, ideas and hoping to see many more. People (if you have related interest and ideas) don't feel shy or lazy, participate in this deep philosophical thread.
Exercise your intellect, threads like this one are the true (philosophical) soul of Illyria Forums (thanks apollon GRE for making it).
I will add more input on the subject later on after the replies accumulate and input will most likely be in the shape of analysis and comments of the already existing comments (of course anyone can feel free to do the same thing at any time).
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apollon GRE (12/27/05 4:47 am)
There have been indeed some interesting views.
First, I 'd like encourage, as Xpo Ferens said, to see what the bright minds of the past (or present) had to say on this subject. Shame, I am not as well as read as I would like, and reinventing the wheel is painful, yet healthy.
I also see a debate on race and genetics being fed in parallel to a more personal, social suffering.
Interesting is that, as I expected, most of us tend to doubt we are born free. This is a dangerously unstable state I think. On one hand we want to avoid being naive and gullible demonstrating critical thought, but if we don't put things into perspective we risk living in limbo without will to fight for freedom while allowing the "natural" forces, that try to restrict it, grow.
Now and in history, we see forces/people/nations/governments/groups relentlessly trying to collect power in the expense of people's self determination. In large scale or small scale. Maybe even ourselves have been part in this.
Life in this planet (i forget the source) has been paralleled to a prison in which people develop different layers of control on each other, yet all are prisoners. One, more religious, might say "we are spirits imprisoned in a material body", and encompass the above more effectively.
If we understand the reasons and origins of our enslavement, we can also better search for the ways to defend and claim our freedom.
In the culture we live (US and US influenced at least) money has been considered the ticket to freedom (not too different from the Roman times). It is the common denominator. If this is the game and we accept the rules, then by default, born without money we are slaves. Slaves maybe not in thinking but in acting and setting our life goals.
I don't mean to place an emphasis in the political aspect but I believe this is a powerful example.
Hence, maybe a hint of traces of enslavement is in accepting certain rules of engagement. Are there options? How many stages? Who determines it? How predestined is it in what "games" of life we can play in? Can we create our own games? If we are successful do we automatically doom some others in some kind of slavery? Can we be (is it possible) "good" and allow freedom?
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Anittas (12/27/05 4:56 am)
We're not born free, but we die free. I see the posters claiming different types of freedom; freedom of the mind, legal freedom, economic freedom. Some are more free than others; and many of those who have gained more freedom than the rest, try to gain control over others. That's the evil circle: one one hand, man wants to be free, on the other hand, man tries to control his follow man. Apart from freedom being a state-of-mind, it's also about definition and interest. This comes with dilemmas and hypocracy. If you allow hate speech, you make the victims of the hate-speech feel unfree; if you block free-speech, you remove certain freedoms of free speech. That is why it's so important to make a well-defined thread when asking such a complex question.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:31:39 GMT -5
canaris(12/27/05 5:09 am) I Just listening to this song..made me think ..how society grooms us from the time were are born...sometimes subliminally and sometimes right up fornt..... for a life of following rules... And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!
Sign Sign everywhere a sign Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
And the sign said anybody caught trespassing would be shot on sight So I jumped on the fence and yelled at the house, Hey! what gives you the right To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in If God was here, he'd tell you to your face, man you're some kinda sinner
Now, hey you Mister! can't you read, you got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat You can't even watch, no you can't eat, you ain't suppose to be here Sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside Uh!
And the sign said everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all, I didn't have a penny to pay, so I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign I said thank you Lord for thinking about me, I'm alive and doing fine
Death will set us free.... As Shakespear put it in hamlet.... To die: to sleep No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep. ----- Pankrati0n(12/27/05 2:22 pm) I one thing is certain..where there is a need there is a leverage its also a simple concept to work in or to get rid of
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:37:42 GMT -5
Ngadhnjyesi(12/30/05 2:16 am) Quote:Interesting is that, as I expected, most of us tend to doubt we are born free. This is a dangerously unstable state I think. We keep debating whether we are free or not and most of us can come to some sort of agreement that we probably are not that free. However, aren't we all assuming that freedom is good for us? Why is it so necessary for humans to be free? Is freedom a Western concept? Does it exist in other cultures such as Asian and Arabic? So rather than framing the question whether we are free or not I think we should wrestle with the question whether freedom is good. P.S. Sorry for the diversion Apollon. Good to see you back. ------- PartialFractions (12/30/05 2:51 am) "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains." Is freedom good, something is only good when it makes you happy, therefore, if you are free and happy then freedom must be good, the converse applies here as well, but it's an individualistic definition, what is good for one person is not necessarily good for another. -------- THOTI(12/30/05 9:55 am) Does free will exist or not. If it doesn’t than humans are slaves. A question that too many people seem to answer with a yes to without any thought because that's what they've been taught. We're taught that we are in full control of ourselves, that we make the choices ourselves, that we listen to a music that we like and not the one that is exposed to us and that even if we are influenced by things outside of ourselves, we still make the choice in the end. But how do we really know that is the truth? Do you ever really do anything without outside stimulus causing it? And similarly, when presented with a situation, aren't we restricted in our choices by our past experiences - can you consider an idea as an option if you've never been exposed to it, or anything like it? Aren’t we slaves to a last, to an addictions and ideas? We are slaves to inner as well as outer factors to more or lesser degree? Freedom is a matter of perspective, and my perspective is that the glass of freedom is half empty rather than half full! -------- Fieraku(12/31/05 10:51 pm) Many philosophers trying to find unfindable questions in life and at the end, each one of them has different views about the matter that it confuses the reader and everybody else around, so is it worth it to tire our brain to find questions that maybe we should not even know? Questions that have many answers and none of them is wrong??? No sh\t some of these philosophers either went nuts or died from brain cancer. At the end of the day they all had something in common, they still don't know what is what. My philosophy is, Sometimes it is good to be dumb, sometimes it is good to not know, and sometimes it is good to leave it at that and live your life at the moment without always questioning why. That way a person is happy in its own world with his own view. There is no need to solve the unsolvable or something that human brain cannot grasp. Free or slaves? It doesn't matter, enjoy materialistic things of this world and don't think about it. That way you wont die from syphylus or any other disease trying to find question that are beyond your realm.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:44:01 GMT -5
Leinarius (1/3/06 3:10 pm) True Freedom. Is freedom only the "time-space" you have to get your necessities from? That would mean that your freedom would come quickly to overlap with that of your neighbors'... I think that is something else, not freedom, but property...In any case that would be just a materialization/ temporization, just a projection of your freedom in time-space coordinates. Freedom is a state of the spirit. One can be in the service of others and still be free. If you serve others for the common good, or driven by love for them, that does not affect your freedom. The question is about choice. You choose. That's the ultimate freedom. ----- Anclation(1/3/06 7:47 pm) Quote:Is freedom only the "time-space" you have to get your necessities from? I would certainly say that's a part of it, a basic, good situation materialistically provides the necessary security for any kind of freedom to take place. If you consider freedom to be choice, you would have to admit that your economic and social starting point strongly affects the real choice you will have. A kid born into a starving family in Ethiopia can't be said to have the same amount of freedom, opportunity and choice as a kid born into a wealthy western family. You are in fact dependent on factors outside your control. Quote:The question is about choice. You choose. That's the ultimate freedom. Sure, you will in just about all situations have some degree of choice (even if you're just about to shot, you can for example choose to take the bullet with dignity, or choose to beg for mercy), it's just that, for many, the real choice they have is between a bad alternative, and another bad alternative. Hardly real freedom. ----- OskarSzilva(1/5/06 5:56 am) To me your question is kind of open ended , I'm not sure you have something specific in mind that you may relate it to. But just to answer your question are we born free? In my opinion Yes and No, but this again all depends specifically what you were talking about. If you mean do individuals have genetic limitations... then the answer to that is probably yes, obviously not everybody could be a Mozart or a Van Goth or a Champion athlete, people are born with intellectual and physical limitations... but also its probably true many people never push themselves to the very limits of there limitations and probably could have higher intellect or better athlete if they did. About people's attitudes you mentioned Genetics also, I don't necessarily agree with that , if you look within a family you can see similarities but you can see differences also, in behavior and ideas, this can relate to environmental influences,generational differences etc and then if you believe in the influence of something like Astrology over peoples character then you have this extra factor also. Do we have freedom of choice, Yes but again this is limited by many factors for each individual, but the freedom of choice is also dependent on individuals motivation, usually we base our choices on our motivations. -------- Prussia1231 (1/5/06 8:52 am) All humans are born slaves to money, power, lust, hate and greed. Some choose to fight their urges while others follow them to their ends. All in all those who fight them are better people than those who let them dominate their lives. -------- Anittas (1/5/06 2:25 pm) Quote:All humans are born slaves to money, power, lust, hate and greed. Some choose to fight their urges while others follow them to their ends. All in all those who fight them are better people than those who let them dominate their lives. People are not born to desire money; they are "taught" to desire them. What kind of lust do you speak of? Lust is a part of our nature and should not be fought off. You will not become more free if you resist it. That's like saying that you would be more free if you wouldn't love, because then, you would have less things to worry (care) about. I don't think that we should view emotions as something that gives us limitations to our freedom.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 2:47:20 GMT -5
aussie aussie aussie (1/21/06 5:13 pm)
Isn't a supremely perfect being the only thing that is truly free, god perhaps?...is this supremely perfect being even possible to perceive?
I mean, we now have the knowledge to approximate the acts of animals, comets etc.., and we use this knowledge to understand ourselves better...but i just cant perceive us knowing everything about ourselves, unless we were to evolve, giving us more things to have to understand...not knowing everything about ourselves can apply to other animals and things too and there understanding towards other things...animals probably think that they are free in their choices...if i think I'm free in my choices, then why wouldn't they think the same?
take this scenario...i quit playing the saxophone 5 years ago, but out of boredomi started playing it again....i think i did that out of free will....but there is probably some being out their, with a vast amount of knowledge, that could predict that i was gonna start playing the saxophone again, just like we predict from say...things in the universe...for example, if a comet was to be given consciousness, it would probably think it had the free will to travel the path it was taking, but we know through science that its path is determined., maybe it is this sort of thinking that we are slavery too...maybe the reason why this being can predict these things is bcs it does not think like the being it is observing?? lol, i just read what i wrote, and i think its time to go to bed
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